Super Surgeless Healing Fountain?

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Looking at the bard in low Paragon, in a big 'solo' fight, Stirring Shout, (+5), Queen's Grace (+5), Perfect Pitch (+5), + Saga of Vengeance (+5 or save) , Queen's Grace (+5), Perfect Pitch (+5) so a hit would heal 30 HP (or 15 HP +save). Seems expensive (Three Dailies), but also seems something's a bit off.

Thoughts?
 The Queen's Grace (11th level): Whenever you grant healing with a bard healing power, add your Charisma modifier to the hit points regained by each target.

I don't think you grant healing with those powers, and you certainly don't target them.

Effect: Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +2 power bonus to damage rolls with your bard attack powers, and when you or an ally regains hit points from one of your bard or bard paragon path healing powers, that character regains additional hit points equal to your Charisma modifier.


However this works, due to its exact wording.

Effect: Until the end of the encounter, whenever an ally hits the target, that ally regains hit points equal to your Charisma modifier

Effect: Until the end of the encounter, whenever an ally hits the target with an attack, that ally can choose to roll a saving throw or to regain hit points equal to your Charisma modifier.

 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
I expect there are plenty of 3-daily combinations that can trivialize a solo fight. That's why solos should never be alone, and also why it's usually a good idea to put the party through a few challenging encounters before they reach it.
20 healing per hit really isn't that powerful for a level 9 3xDaily combo. Of course, you can also add Benefactor's Armor for another +Cha ... be a Bard|Cleric and use Spirit of Healing for another +Wis ...
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Post from 2009 asking about The Queen's Grace stacking with Stirring Shout and Vigorous Cadence;

 community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Concensus was; Yes it stacks, No it isn't overpowered compared to Cleric and Paladin powers.

There is a thread on ENWorld from 2009 with the same answer.

Caveat:  I am the Bard player in question.  I recognize the OPs pic from my LFR group.  This is from my research before I took the Summer Rhymer paragon path.  Perfect Pitch is mentioned in the Errata thread, saying the current wording is the errata'd version and does stack.

i'm about 75% certain that I emailed WotC about this, but as my computer is on the fritz and I'm doing this on my iPad, I can't look for it very easily.

edit: sometimes you wonder what posterior autocorrect pulls things from.
The bowels of hell? Tongue Out
That thread is four years old and the concept of it not stacking was not even discussed. We have a more analytical approach than they used to, back in the day.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

i'm about 75% certain that

I emailed WotC about this, but ...


Whether you did or not,
you're somewhat more likely to get the right answer here.

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

Yup, have emailed again.  Would be interested if others do and get the same answer.
[11:38] Do me a favor and tell the guy in the surgeless healing thread that Customer Service is not a rules source, and you will get a more accurate result by flipping a coin since that's at least 50/50 while CustServ is wrong 89% of the time

Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
... I mean with 99%+ of the various other boards
scatter across the web, these could be accepted
without needing to effortize the emailizations.

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

Healing daily combo's can get pretty crazy, but then again if you are using three dailies shouldn't it feel a little crazy?

On my cleric just starting paragon I have quite a bit of healing and already saw a combo between Stream of Life and Concecrated Ground and even thought about adding Beacon of Hope just to go totally over the top, but ofcourse that is a total of two dailies and a daily utility so how often is it worth it/ needed?

Still the idea of being able to heal someone for 24 hp surgeless every turn is quite fun even if I'll probably never use it exept maybe becuase I want to use it atleast once xD

Show
It is the charopbooard so better add this: SoL 15 + BoH 5 + Mace of Healing +2 + Healers Brooch +2 Ofcourse the Mace and Brooch could be +3 on lower paragon, but haven't found an upgrade yet.
What do you need all this surgeless healing for? Would it not be better to use some dailies that enable allies, or simply kill the monster faster?
We played CORE5-2 this weekend.  Initially the GM indicated that he would not allow The Queen's Grace to stack (which I'm cool with, it is the GM's call), but when the battle came, he allowed it.  Took me to round 6 to get off the last Daily due to the Skill Challenge bit, but after that, fighting Azriel, a solo with >500 hit points with 3 full turns each round went easier.  Hit him and heal for 30 or 15+a save, and on each of his turns, my nearest ally healed 15.

That is what this kind of thing is for.

No way a Bard is going to put up enough damage against that sort of enemy to justify other powers, none of which would do all that much more Damage. 
The bard isn't there to deal damage.  It's there to help the strikers do their jobs.  Healing is a part of that, true, but so is giving them more opportunities to punch the bad guy in the face.  And the latter is generally considered more important than the former.
We played CORE5-2 this weekend.  Initially the GM indicated that he would not allow The Queen's Grace to stack (which I'm cool with, it is the GM's call), but when the battle came, he allowed it.  Took me to round 6 to get off the last Daily due to the Skill Challenge bit, but after that, fighting Azriel, a solo with >500 hit points with 3 full turns each round went easier.  Hit him and heal for 30 or 15+a save, and on each of his turns, my nearest ally healed 15.

That is what this kind of thing is for.

No way a Bard is going to put up enough damage against that sort of enemy to justify other powers, none of which would do all that much more Damage. 


On the contrary, a single (actually there's 3 of them) Bard Daily can generate well over a hundred points of damage in low paragon, admittedly that's partly a Party-Op issue of "were your allies smart enough to have good MBAs" ... I'm well aware that well built characters aren't the norm in LFR, which is why this thread exists to begin with; neither Perfect Pitch nor Summer Rhymer are remotely optimal choices, and Saga is meerly "not bad", Stirring Shout on the other hand is precisely the right power for this encounter given the bbeg deals 10 damage to anyone that hits him.

It's frankly inexcusable that it took 4 rounds to do the Skill Challenge.
Because you know, God Forbid anyone anywhere play a character that is not totally optimized in every way and designed in perfect coordination with every other player in their group. 

Let's leave off such epic levels of silliness, which have nothing to do with anyone being 'smart enough'.
I'd agree, except it sounds like your encounter went like 9-10 rounds, which sounds pretty awful.

You don't need to make the perfect optimized character, but getting down certain core concepts (such as: enabling = more damage = faster combats = less healing needed, thus enabling > healing) can help you to play more effectively and avoid 4 hour grind-fest encounters.
Because you know, God Forbid anyone anywhere play a character that is not totally optimized in every way and designed in perfect coordination with every other player in their group. 

Let's leave off such epic levels of silliness, which have nothing to do with anyone being 'smart enough'.


Yay fallacies!

No one says you have to be fully optimized. Melee characters and ranged strikers having a good BA is just common courtesy and a foundation stone on building a good striker. People who build strikers that can't do their job (able to kill an equal level creature by themselves in 4 rounds or less) properly are stupid, I know I'm an awful person for saying it, but it's absolutely true, they are horrible people with neither an understanding of game mechanics, nor the social understand to realize they're being a burden to everyone else. It's possible to build a competent striker without a good basic attack, there's just maybe 2 builds in the entire game that can do it and don't have the ability to just take a basic attack "because why not".

Your personal choices are fine, and seem to work with the group you have, they're not optimal, but I'm not going to call you dumb for not being a Resourceful Magician or Lifesinger.

4 rounds to complete a "combat/story necessary" skill challenge is absurd under any circumstances; and unacceptable when it can be completed in 2 rounds by 2 baseline strikers (for those who haven't played it, there's a X damage = Y successes option, a CharOp striker could 1-round the Challenge)
Yeah, our 2 Defenders, 1 Striker and 1 Controller/Striker (Druid) were more interested in hitting Azriel and telling me to do the 'skill challenge' until after 2 rounds when I pointed out that we had only 2 successes and I wasn't going to hit the 8-10 successes we needed all on my own, so it was time for them to switch targets a bit.

And on the other end, when we have no Clerics at the table (and precious few in the larger group) and our melee guys are getting hit 3 times a round for 4d10+a bunch (and the GM is hitting his recharge like 2/3 of the time on the spam the group attack), I make no apologies for being able to heal > 100 points per round for every round to the end of the fight, however long it lasts.  No one went down and we ended at or near full hp on everyone.
Revenant Runepriest|swarmdruid/vampire

Each battle you generate surges, which you can hand out in scroll form.  You also start the day with a large number of them.  And your tough enough to not really need any healing yourself.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The Vampire MC feat drops your surges from your class to 2.
Which Primal Vampire bumps up to 4 again, which for this sort of a build qualifies as "large"
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Which Primal Vampire bumps up to 4 again, which for this sort of a build qualifies as "large"

Fair enough, though you're talking about 3 feats (Vampirism, Thirst For Blood, Primal Vampire) for this trick.  Unless there's another way to generate surges with that combo I'm not seeing, which is entirely possible.

You don't need TFB, surge generation is contained within the (PowerSource) Vampire feats.  TFB gets you one more, but as a power-swap feat with no additional benefit.

Hybrids that multiclass Vampire can get a lot of surge generation, actually.  Martial gets the most - a reliable 2/enc.

The end result of this is that a multiclass Vampire is better at being a Vampire than an actual Vampire.

Which then leads to the conclusion I reached as soon as I saw the Vampire class:  Vampire should have been a Theme, in the Dark Sun style with power swaps.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Wasn't Vampire a template in 3.0/3.5?
Wasn't Vampire a template in 3.0/3.5?


It was a couple things, yeah.

You can get a Vampire to 14 Surges in Epic, the cost is pretty high though and you have to be a Vampire|Warlord/Primal/Reincarnate Champion Revenant Mul Dwarf Half-Orc.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
You don't need TFB, surge generation is contained within the (PowerSource) Vampire feats.  TFB gets you one more, but as a power-swap feat with no additional benefit.

Hybrids that multiclass Vampire can get a lot of surge generation, actually.  Martial gets the most - a reliable 2/enc.

The end result of this is that a multiclass Vampire is better at being a Vampire than an actual Vampire.

Which then leads to the conclusion I reached as soon as I saw the Vampire class:  Vampire should have been a Theme, in the Dark Sun style with power swaps.

Hmm...  What about a dual-source class?  Beserker (barbarian?) has martial and primal powers.


Also, half-elves can MC vampire without loosing surges.  Add some "for each surge spent" stuff too.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Berserker can't hybrid, so a berserker/vampire still has the same number of power sources as a hybrid can get.

Half-elf MC vampire is a hack, and should not be supported.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Berserker can't hybrid, so a berserker/vampire still has the same number of power sources as a hybrid can get.

Half-elf MC vampire is a hack, and should not be supported.

Care to elaborate for those of us that aren't that familiar with vampire MC/hybrid shenanigans and haven't had any caffeine yet today?

Step one:  Be a half-elf.

Step two:  Pick a L1 Vampire at-will as your Dilettante power.

Step three:  Pick Adept Dilettante, which includes this little gem of a line:

Special: This feat counts as a class-specific multiclass feat for the class from which your Dilettante racial trait power comes.

Voila!  You are now a Multiclass Vampire, but without the Vampirisim multiclass feat that reduces your surges to 2.


It's completely legitimate by RAW, but horrendously bad design and should be errata'd, and never used at any table ever.

It's also a good example why Vampire should never have been a class, but rather a racial template or a theme.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Which they fixed for werecritters.  Though that does mean you can be a zombie robot vampire werewolf.
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