We Need Saving Throw Bonuses

Here are the current rolls as I understand them. Please correct me if I am wrong.

An Ability Contest

Attacker
rolls 1d20
+ability mod

+situation modifier
Versus

Target
rolls 1d20
+ability mod

An Attack Roll Versus AC

Attacker
rolls 1d20+
+ability mod
+attack bonus

+situation modifier
Versus

Target's
AC
+no ability mod
+nothing to counter the attack bonus

A Spell abilityDC versus abilitySave

Attacker DC
10+
+ability mod
+spellcasting bonus

+situation modifier
Versus

Target's Save Throw
1d20+
+ability mod
+? nothing to counter the spellcasting bonus.

This means that both characters and monsters are hitting a lot. It is often those who have higher initiatives who win an encounter.

We need to bring back a saving throw bonus.

My D&D5E JavaScript Roll Tracker http://dnd5.weebly.com/

Or delete the magic power bonus, or go back to static defenses like 4e, or make all the attacks (spells included) and defenses based on an active skill system.

Something.

we wouldn't have this kind of trouble if the devs weren't trying so hard to make this game like 3e, but with even less forethought.
Here are the current rolls as I understand them. Please correct me if I am wrong.

An Ability Contest

Attacker
rolls 1d20
+ability mod

+situation modifier
Versus

Target
rolls 1d20
+ability mod

An Attack Roll Versus AC

Attacker
rolls 1d20+
+ability mod
+attack bonus

+situation modifier
Versus

Target's
AC
+no ability mod
+nothing to counter the attack bonus

A Spell abilityDC versus abilitySave

Attacker DC
10+
+ability mod
+spellcasting bonus

+situation modifier
Versus

Target's Save Throw
1d20+
+ability mod
+? nothing to counter the spellcasting bonus.

This means that both characters and monsters are hitting a lot. It is often those who have higher initiatives who win an encounter.

We need to bring back a saving throw bonus.




THE MONSTERS DON'T HAVE SAVE DC BONUSES!


the monster set DCs are set at a reasonable level as compared to PC saves.  Asmodeus himself is sending DC 20 for spells and 18 for non spell saves.  The pit fiend is 18 and 15 for those splits. 18 for Spell saves, and 15 for non spell saves.  The Ice Devil is DC Spell DC 15.  The Dracolich is tossing out DC 14s.  The PC set DC's are at an apropriate level as compared to monster saves. 

Basically the only time this problem comes up: PvP. 
That doesn't help sleeps, any monster with high enough ability scores to actually resist spells can then turn around and set Overwhelming DCs for the PCs.

So either monsters who set DCs have to be made so weak that their DCs don't surpass what a player can roll, which renders them highly vulnerable to magic in return, or PC's just aren't gonna make saves.

You could try separating monster DCs from their ability scores of course, but I doubt they will. 

Furthermore it makes it very hard for PCs to survive friendly fire which is a thing unless the enemy always conveniently stays in a set formation. To say nothing of what the impact of a classed NPC mage would be if his powers were largely irresistable to PCs. 
That doesn't help sleeps, any monster with high enough ability scores to actually resist spells can then turn around and set Overwhelming DCs for the PCs.

So either monsters who set DCs have to be made so weak that their DCs don't surpass what a player can roll, which renders them highly vulnerable to magic in return, or PC's just aren't gonna make saves.

You could try separating monster DCs from their ability scores of course, but that's 4e-esque and thus verbotten. 



The real problem is that the monster math right now for Next is utterly and completely broken.  This is one symptom of it.  ACs that are far to easy to hit for PCs is another.

IMHO what the Devs need to do is do a complete overhaul of their bestiary so that all the Monster/Montrous-NPCs fit within their expected "bounded accuracy" for all levels at least to a first approximation.  It doesn't have to be perfect, but the glaring issues need to be fixed.

Then and only then, will we be really able to tell within an acceptable margin of error if the problems we are seeing right now are real problems or artifacts of bad data (in this case bad monster math).

-Polaris    
That doesn't help sleeps, any monster with high enough ability scores to actually resist spells can then turn around and set Overwhelming DCs for the PCs.

So either monsters who set DCs have to be made so weak that their DCs don't surpass what a player can roll, which renders them highly vulnerable to magic in return, or PC's just aren't gonna make saves.

You could try separating monster DCs from their ability scores of course, but I doubt they will. 

Furthermore it makes it very hard for PCs to survive friendly fire which is a thing unless the enemy always conveniently stays in a set formation. To say nothing of what the impact of a classed NPC mage would be if his powers were largely irresistable to PCs. 




I just listed the top 3 saves in the entire game.

Asmpodeus is setting top saves with a DC 20...however that is only for his spell casting.  his non spell casting checks are DC 18 so 13 or higher for a mster in that field of making saves.  next is pit fiend..and so on

eventually we get to drow:


Str 10 (+0) Dex 15 (+2) Con 10 (+0)
Int 13 (+1) Wis 14 (+2) Cha 12 (+1)


Magic Resistance: The drow has advantage on saving
throws against magical effects.


Multiattack: The drow makes two short sword attacks,
two hand crossbow attacks, or one short sword attack and
one hand crossbow attack.


Ranged Attack—Hand Crossbow: +7 to hit (range 30/120
ft.; one creature). Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage, and
the target must make a DC 12 Constitution saving throw.
Failed Save: The target takes a 5-foot penalty to speed
and a –1 penalty to AC and Dexterity saving throws for
1d6 hours.
This is a poison effect. Multiple applications of the
poison are cumulative. If the speed penalty reaches 20
feet or greater, the target falls unconscious for 1d8 hours.

Level 4

seems he can stand up to the party's saves, and the party can easily defend against its saves.

NPC's and Monsters are developped differently than PC's for 1 they do not get the spell bonus that increase save DCs.  they get 10 plus stat mod for spell saves.  Monsters and NPCs are design differently than players.

Ok using his high stats the drow has to roll a 12, his mid stats require a roll of 13, and his low stats require a roll of 14 to make a save from a level 4 wiz with a +3 in mod. 

With an average save bonus of +1 that's a 60% chance to fail each roll. Even with advantage on saving throws that's not exactly reliable spell defense, especially when you consider many spells still ding you on a save and if you do fail a save it can be a fight ender.

To say nothing of smart wizards figuring 'hey it's an elf, let's whip out con save stuff'. 

I know the monsters and PCs aren't the same system, it's kinda like 4e that way, but instead of both systems being well thought out and planned around each other they're both rather vague and not interacting with each other very well.

The problem is due to this difference, the magic power bonus on spell DCs is the problem and it cuases problems with PCs and monsters even without there being violence between characters with class levels. Furthermore DMs do make classed NPCs you know.
I dont want the saves back guyz... And I am a hardcore 3.5 fan
But 3.5 is there allready for anyone who wants to play it.

The purpose of DnD next is to create something new.

IMO, the new "ability-save" system is a nice idea... It is simple enough for new players and gives to these numbers finally importance... To all of them!!!

1)I agree though that this system needs more work from the developers.... and better scaling
2)I disagree that we should have a different system for monsters... 

Idea: The monster should not be at set level. I mean:
1) except from the basic random exsample Monster in each Monster Description there should be also
2) a list of the species' racial traits for his powers etc and add a text like: "his stats increase according to fighter's table at Player's Handbook"

That gives the opportunity to customize each monster faster and with known techniques (and since we no longer have skill points to assign, it will be a matter of seconds) 
AND
The opportunity for a DM to add more playable races...
OR
Transform a Player into a Monster with a Curse or Wish etc...(just switch your race traits, dude)

No more TONS of Numbers (saves, skill points, etc...)
No more 10 different Algoritms to remember (base attack bonus: 0 1 2 3 3 4 5 6 6 7 8......)
Ok using his high stats the drow has to roll a 12, his mid stats require a roll of 13, and his low stats require a roll of 14 to make a save from a level 4 wiz with a +3 in mod. 

With an average save bonus of +1 that's a 60% chance to fail each roll. Even with advantage on saving throws that's not exactly reliable spell defense, especially when you consider many spells still ding you on a save and if you do fail a save it can be a fight ender.

To say nothing of smart wizards figuring 'hey it's an elf, let's whip out con save stuff'. 

I know the monsters and PCs aren't the same system, it's kinda like 4e that way, but instead of both systems being well thought out and planned around each other they're both rather vague and not interacting with each other very well.

The problem is due to this difference, the magic power bonus on spell DCs is the problem and it cuases problems with PCs and monsters even without there being violence between characters with class levels. Furthermore DMs do make classed NPCs you know.

40% fail save chance with 2d20 magic resistance is I think probably about equal to 65% save chance. So actually the drow has an extremely good save vs magic.

As for creatures without magic resistance... i dont think it matters too much, given there are no true save or dies anymore - hold person etc are save every round.

As Sleeps has shown monster vs PC saves are fine.

The only real issue - imo - is potential NPC Wizard vs the party. Then, maybe, you could have issues. But then again.... I quite like the idea of the scary enemy NPC spellcasters. On the other hand I would have nothing against +1 saves across the board at "mid level" being say 6th-10th, then another +1 at 11th, then say another +1 at "epic" at 16th.

Also, or alternatively, I like the idea of magic items that grant bonuses to saves. Magic protects against magic.
They should just remove the class spellcasting bonus from save DCs. If saving throws don't improve with level then save DCs shouldn't either.
They should just remove the class spellcasting bonus from save DCs. If saving throws don't improve with level then save DCs shouldn't either.



But doesn't this idea sort of run against 5Es idea of characters becoming better as they progress? If DCs scale with monsters then what's the point because it'll still be the same % as they continue? But I do agree that they should remove DC progression, or at the least slow it down a little more.  
hmmh... spells are getting better with spell level... maybe there is no need to increase saving throw difficulty on top of it.
I miss when the direct attack spells targeted AC. Why we stepped away from that, I doubt I'll understand. I still prefer NADs over saves, but I can see using both NADs AND saves for direct and indirect attacks, respectively.

Oh, and I REALLY wish they'd just use Save DC = 11 + [spell level] without the ability bonus. Let the ability bonus factor into the spell some other way.

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They should just remove the class spellcasting bonus from save DCs. If saving throws don't improve with level then save DCs shouldn't either.

AC doesnt improve, but to hit does.

Why shouldnt save DCs get harder? (answer is probably save or die, but the answer to that is "daily" resource, then the answer to that is "it's still OP!" and the answer to that is "subjective!")

I guess as a DM I dont want to see a BBEG with a save chance less than 33%, and preferably closer to 50% or 60%. I'm not sure if this is doable. But if not, I think they need some serious "monster options" at the start of the bestiary to choose from to "beef up your BBEG".... eg: Iron Will (+4 saves vs polymorph, sleep and charm).
But I do agree that they should remove DC progression, or at the least slow it down a little more.  



+5 over 20 levels is pretty slow.

Also, character's ability scores cap at 20, so DC 15 would be the highest (DC 20 with the current spellcasting bonus), monster ability scores go to 30, so can get DC 20.

Seems to work for me.
But I do agree that they should remove DC progression, or at the least slow it down a little more.  



+5 over 20 levels is pretty slow.



I was thinking more like +3 over 20 (+1 @ 6th, +2 @ 11th, +3 @ 16th).  
Ok using his high stats the drow has to roll a 12, his mid stats require a roll of 13, and his low stats require a roll of 14 to make a save from a level 4 wiz with a +3 in mod. 

With an average save bonus of +1 that's a 60% chance to fail each roll. Even with advantage on saving throws that's not exactly reliable spell defense, especially when you consider many spells still ding you on a save and if you do fail a save it can be a fight ender.

To say nothing of smart wizards figuring 'hey it's an elf, let's whip out con save stuff'. 

I know the monsters and PCs aren't the same system, it's kinda like 4e that way, but instead of both systems being well thought out and planned around each other they're both rather vague and not interacting with each other very well.

The problem is due to this difference, the magic power bonus on spell DCs is the problem and it cuases problems with PCs and monsters even without there being violence between characters with class levels. Furthermore DMs do make classed NPCs you know.

40% fail save chance with 2d20 magic resistance is I think probably about equal to 65% save chance. So actually the drow has an extremely good save vs magic.

As for creatures without magic resistance... i dont think it matters too much, given there are no true save or dies anymore - hold person etc are save every round.

As Sleeps has shown monster vs PC saves are fine.

The only real issue - imo - is potential NPC Wizard vs the party. Then, maybe, you could have issues. But then again.... I quite like the idea of the scary enemy NPC spellcasters. On the other hand I would have nothing against +1 saves across the board at "mid level" being say 6th-10th, then another +1 at 11th, then say another +1 at "epic" at 16th.

Also, or alternatively, I like the idea of magic items that grant bonuses to saves. Magic protects against magic.




ring of protection

spellguard shield 

...the resistance cantrip.
 
Prot ring and SS only provide a +1 bonus, do not stack with each other, and given their wording may not stack with resistance even if someone did waste their time casting it often enough that it mattered on a statistical level.

Furthermore you're solving magic with more magic.

Yes fighters get the same advancement on their attack rolls as mages do on their spell power but there's two major differences. 1.) Armor and shields while poorly executed exist and offer some form of increasing defense, in addition to several abilities that boost AC. So a fighter is for the most part on the same tread mill that BA was supposed to be getting rid of while the Wizard gets better as he levels. 2.) The mages can target any stat, or almost any stat while the warriors face a chokepoint at AC.
Band-aid for monsters:

Apprentice Tier monsters roll d20+2 to save

Adventurer Tier monsters roll d20+4 to save

Legendary tier have +6 to save.

Named monsters/bosses/recurring foes have +10.

Note this is band-aid only and not designed around some kind of simulation or consistency. It's just the only way I've been able to make this work and NOT be a cake-walk for PCs. (It also lets me transcribe WAY LESS monster stat garbage).
Here are the current rolls as I understand them. Please correct me if I am wrong.

An Ability Contest

Attacker
rolls 1d20
+ability mod

+situation modifier
Versus

Target
rolls 1d20
+ability mod

An Attack Roll Versus AC

Attacker
rolls 1d20+
+ability mod
+attack bonus

+situation modifier
Versus

Target's
AC
+no ability mod
+nothing to counter the attack bonus

A Spell abilityDC versus abilitySave

Attacker DC
10+
+ability mod
+spellcasting bonus

+situation modifier
Versus

Target's Save Throw
1d20+
+ability mod
+? nothing to counter the spellcasting bonus.

This means that both characters and monsters are hitting a lot. It is often those who have higher initiatives who win an encounter.

We need to bring back a saving throw bonus.




THE MONSTERS DON'T HAVE SAVE DC BONUSES!


the monster set DCs are set at a reasonable level as compared to PC saves.  Asmodeus himself is sending DC 20 for spells and 18 for non spell saves.  The pit fiend is 18 and 15 for those splits. 18 for Spell saves, and 15 for non spell saves.  The Ice Devil is DC Spell DC 15.  The Dracolich is tossing out DC 14s.  The PC set DC's are at an apropriate level as compared to monster saves. 

Basically the only time this problem comes up: PvP. 



A DC18 or even 15 is damn hard even for a high level character. Remember character saves don't improve at all as they level. If you have a +0 at level 1, you're still going to have +0 at 20. Meanwhile low level NPCs have save DCs of 8-12, while as you point out high level NPCs have save DCs of 15-20. Contrary to your post, NPC save DCs are going up, PC saves are not. 

Also without even looking at the monsters in question, I can pretty comfortably say that the penalties for failing a save go up significantly as well. 
Everyone needs to realize this. A DC 18 or DC 20 check can basically permanently disable a PC with an 8 wisdom (everything bad targets wisdom).

The chance of breaking out of a fear/stun/death whatever spell or effect thrown out by a high level monster is between 0% and 10% for our poor 8 wisdom PC. Even with a 12 wisdom, it is only 10% to 20%. This basically means the PC is out of the fight entirely (making an ability check every round to break free they average something like 9 rounds of completely unable to act).

So yes PCs and monsters need better saves as they level.
With the rarity of high level spells it isn't too much of a problem.  If you can figure out how to bypass their attack with good research and groundwork it may not be so bad.


Basically the only time this problem comes up: PvP. 



We better take out charm and domination then.



Basically the only time this problem comes up: PvP. 



We better take out charm and domination then.





Not nearly the hype (as usual) people build it up to be.

Like that whole Casters & Caddies myth. 


Basically the only time this problem comes up: PvP. 



We better take out charm and domination then.





Not nearly the hype (as usual) people build it up to be.

Like that whole Casters & Caddies myth. 



Dominate DC 15 has a 70% chance of affecting your wisdom 10 Wizard, who will now start hitting the party with DC20 spells targetting their weakest stats, which they have effectively no chance to resist.

Even if Dominate only comes up once in the course of your entire campaign, it still brings the "PVP" issue into "This will plausibly happen" as opposed to "Just don't let your players fight each other, bad DM!"


Basically the only time this problem comes up: PvP. 



We better take out charm and domination then.





Not nearly the hype (as usual) people build it up to be.

Like that whole Casters & Caddies myth. 



Dominate DC 15 has a 70% chance of affecting your wisdom 10 Wizard, who will now start hitting the party with DC20 spells targetting their weakest stats, which they have effectively no chance to resist.

Even if Dominate only comes up once in the course of your entire campaign, it still brings the "PVP" issue into "This will plausibly happen" as opposed to "Just don't let your players fight each other, bad DM!"



Players don't cast spells on players.  Monsters don't cast charm and dominate.  Problem solved.  LOL.
The succubus dominates. Also no enemy spellcasters ever? I mean even a single hold person spell on someone take them out of the whole fight on average.


Basically the only time this problem comes up: PvP. 



We better take out charm and domination then.





Not nearly the hype (as usual) people build it up to be.

Like that whole Casters & Caddies myth. 



Dominate DC 15 has a 70% chance of affecting your wisdom 10 Wizard, who will now start hitting the party with DC20 spells targetting their weakest stats, which they have effectively no chance to resist.

Even if Dominate only comes up once in the course of your entire campaign, it still brings the "PVP" issue into "This will plausibly happen" as opposed to "Just don't let your players fight each other, bad DM!"



Players don't cast spells on players.  Monsters don't cast charm and dominate.  Problem solved.  LOL.



I for one am now far less afraid of sucubii.

I would really like charm and dominate only affecting low level people without knowing true name or having their blood or a powerful component.  But sometimes it is the job of the cleric and wizard to protect his party from evil magic.


I for one am now far less afraid of sucubii.




Succubi are rated 18+ so won't be included in DDN.  Problem solved again.  LOL.  




I for one am now far less afraid of sucubii.




Succubi are rated 18+ so won't be included in DDN.  Problem solved again.  LOL.  





I think I'm starting to get you.

So instead of fixing bad design the solution is to remove the elements that make the bad design most apparent. Got it.


Woe is to the PC who must make a DC 15 fear save with only a 10 ability score. He will likely get no chance to participate in the encounter. In fact, such a save can easily result in a TPK.


So instead of fixing bad design the solution is to remove the elements that make the bad design most apparent. Got it.


Woe is to the PC who must make a DC 15 fear save with only a 10 ability score. He will likely get no chance to participate in the encounter. In fact, such a save can easily result in a TPK.




DnD Next, a new generation of rolepayers.  Scary dangerous monsters need not apply.
Parental discretion advised.  No real people were killed in the playtest of this game.  We accept no liability for the death of imaginary characters and will pay no damages real or imagined for destruction of imaginary property or wealth.

Exactly! D&D should be the humorous game for light hearted Murder Hobos with no plot, story, or character depth due to ease of character death from a single average die roll.

Everyone can laugh as Bob 14 replaces Bob 13 and the adventurers march onward, not giving a care as to the loss of their friend. In such a humorous genre where death is absolute, why bother with details such as backstory and character development. No need to grow attached to your character because death is around the corner and a die roll away.

That will definitely draw in the crowds of new blood this genre desperately needs to continue its existence for the next 20 years.
Um, maybe the problem is the existence/implementation of save-or-suck effects like fear and not their accuracy?
Exactly! D&D should be the humorous game for light hearted Murder Hobos with no plot, story, or character depth due to ease of character death from a single average die roll.

Everyone can laugh as Bob 14 replaces Bob 13 and the adventurers march onward, not giving a care as to the loss of their friend. In such a humorous genre where death is absolute, why bother with details such as backstory and character development. No need to grow attached to your character because death is around the corner and a die roll away.

That will definitely draw in the crowds of new blood this genre desperately needs to continue its existence for the next 20 years.



Thank you very very much for the sarcastic response to my arrogant sarcasm.  It is greatly appreciated.  I love adventures that foreshadow what spells need to be memorized for an encounter.  And I delight in the death of the wizard (my own included) that does not prepare properly.  I delight in an adventure that can not be defeated without careful attention to the plot.  Such players deserve death.  I delight in PCs being killed by a dominated fighter because the wizard and cleric did not prepare for such an event.  I love players whining about being paralyzed and the Spellcaster did not prepare for it.

I also love adventures in general that are not won my number crunching, but by attention to detail.  That way the players that don't pay attention and just want to know when it is their time to fight die a miserable death.  That is what the game is about.  20th level should not be an entitlement, 20th level should be for those who have demonstrated creative problem solving over the course of 20 levels.   Bwahahahaha!
But killing someone just for the sake of fun or bad encounter building.  That I do not like.  Encounters need to be crafted with care.

I also like to kill wizards that waste spells on encounters.  Wizards that go supernova when it was not necessary.  Spellcasters should conserve those spells until they are truly needed and not flaunted.

Everyone needs to realize this. A DC 18 or DC 20 check can basically permanently disable a PC with an 8 wisdom (everything bad targets wisdom).

The chance of breaking out of a fear/stun/death whatever spell or effect thrown out by a high level monster is between 0% and 10% for our poor 8 wisdom PC. Even with a 12 wisdom, it is only 10% to 20%. This basically means the PC is out of the fight entirely (making an ability check every round to break free they average something like 9 rounds of completely unable to act).

So yes PCs and monsters need better saves as they level.




you know what you don't do then?  don't have an 8 wisdom.  SAY HELLO TO HOW YOU STOP PEOPLE FROM MIN/MAXING.  You know why the system is designed around level 20 characters having a 16 as their highest stat even with 12 possible stat increases along the leveling process (next packet)? because they expect most characters to spend those points to get all their ability scores up because you can't min out a score anymore.  It will leave you desperately open to attack especially in the later levels.  Literally by level 20 you can't affor to have 10's  you need to increase those scores or have abilities such as the fighter's unstopable feature which allows you to have bonuses to some saves.  In fact almost every class has some kind of save related bonus or immunity or something of that nature.  the only person that doesn't: The Wizard.  The wizard has no save bonuses, he also has the easiest class to min max (dump all other stats put everything into int) now in the building phase he can't do that because he still needs +1's in almost every stat to account for saves.

Also as far as I can tell spellguard and RoP stack mainly because Spellguard gives advantage on spell saves.  so that fighter with at minimum +2 to all saves with a few hitting +3 or +4 now has +1 to all of them, and if it is spell casting he has advantage on the save.  so lets say asmo uses a spell on the fighter needs to roll a 17 and has advantage...same probablity as rolling for a 15 or 14+ on a singular die, and that's minimum. if the save goes against one of his really good save he is rolling a 15+ to make the save and has advantage so it is like rolling for a 12+ probability wise.  for the non spell DCs out of asmo the fighter is doing a 13+ to pass many of them, and an abjurationist could come by and hit them with resistance (which stacks) and make that even better.  on top of that he could use his reaction to use his unstopable feature (which any smart fighter is going to stack on his +2 bonus having stats).

Basically all of this ammounts to one thing...all these saves are the reason you don't min max in 5e.  in 5e you pretty much have to build a well rounded character or else have giant weaknesses.

Also we are now comparing saves against the strongest thing in the book the thing that you don't fight every day that thing you only fight once and is usually the end of the campaign...yeah that fight is supposed to be hard.

lets look at some actual, I'm gunna fight this all the time kinds of saves.  those rest in the 15 area mostly (like all things of moderate/average difficulty in the bounded accuracy scale).  So your +2 to the save is going to be making that a 13 or higher to make the save...that alone is an acceptable save to make.  On average the DC's you run into as a PC are not those DC 20's.  You are normally not even in the neighborhood of that.  That is literally the spell casting save DC of the strongest creature in the book, and his non spell saves are 18's and 16s he is literally the only thing tossing DC 20 saves.  Next in line is the pit fiend, and he is 18 on spell saves and 15 on everything else saves.  Next in line the ice devil is 15 on spell saves...and no non spellcasting saves.  As we go anywhere else we see saves actually average around the number 15...even with high level enemies.

Basically as usual you guys are completely misrepresenting the actual math of the system.  Yes the hardest thing in the book to face is hard to face...that is the point.  the normally encountered monsters are not as crazy difficult as he is.
you know what you don't do then?  don't have an 8 wisdom.  SAY HELLO TO HOW YOU STOP PEOPLE FROM MIN/MAXING.


Also, given you will have 6 to 12 opportunities to raise your Abilities, if you are so concerned about being Dominated, you can up your Wisdom by dedicating some feat slots to it.
Math people.

Again a 12 wisdom or charisma (you apparently need both now or you will be screwed by a Save or Die), means you only have a 35% chance of making a DC 15 save. You get an ability check every round to end the effect (not a saving throw so no bonuses from anything other than your ability score LOLl!) means on average you will be unable to act for edit - 3 rounds if you fail your saving throw. Most fights don't even last that long.

It has nothing to do with min maxing at all. Simple math shows that even a PC who has invested significant resources in order to have a 12+ in Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma still will be unable to act for a whole fight when confronted with the dreaded Save or Suck abilites. Remember we cannot forget all the save or suck abilities based on Constitution and Charisma as well as Wisdom.

Talk about lame. You can't even make character attributes match their personalities. I can no longer make my unwise and reckless Wis 8 fighter (Wis 8 is far from min maxing, witht he way saves work in this game you are pretty much a fool to have wis below 14. A true min maxer dumps Int but that limits RP). You can't make an 8 Charisma gruff and unpersonable dwarf because you have to get that 12 charisma or risk being perma feared.

You also have to find specific magic items too! This is worse shiz than 4e. The only way to have halfway decent saving throws is to find the magic items, you know the things 5e specifically says you do not need to play. Not only that, the magic items barely help at all after you fail the first save. Wow, great game design here.

But wait, all these problems could be solved if they changed how saving throws work and instead of trying to fix the problems people are calling eachother names like "min maxer" and saying the DM should simply design encounters better? Instead of actually admitting the giant gaping fault in the rules system people are holding the rules up on some pedastle of greatness and saying everyone must design their characters "this tall to ride".

Really?
Math people.

Again a 12 wisdom or charisma (you apparently need both now or you will be screwed by a Save or Die), means you only have a 35% chance of making a DC 15 save. You get an ability check every round to end the effect (not a saving throw so no bonuses from anything other than your ability score LOLl!) means on average you will be unable to act for 5 rounds if you fail your saving throw. Most fights don't even last that long.

It has nothing to do with min maxing at all. Simple math shows that even a PC who has invested significant resources in order to have a 12+ in Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma still will be unable to act for a whole fight when confronted with the dreaded Save or Suck abilites. Remember we cannot forget all the save or suck abilities based on Constitution and Charisma as well as Wisdom.

Talk about lame. You can't even make character attributes match their personalities. I can no longer make my unwise and reckless Wis 8 fighter (wis 8 is far from min maxing, witht he way saves work in this game you are pretty much a fool to have wis below 14). You can't make an 8 Charisma gruff and unpersonable dwarf because you have to get that 12 charisma or risk being perma feared. You also have to find specific magic items too! This is worse shiz than 4e.

But wait, all these problems could be solved if they changed how saving throws work and instead of trying to fix the problems people are calling eachother names like "min maxer" and saying the DM should simply design encounters better? Instead of actually admitting the giant gaping fault in the rules system people are holding the rules up on some pedastle of greatness and saying everyone must design their characters "this tall to ride".

Really?




and the average save your going to have to make at level cap is around 15.  Pre level 15 your looking at on average every save being DC 13 or 12, or below...even with a -1 you're looking at a 14+ to pass.  You want to make that wreckless fighter with an 8 wis give him Iron will so he can add 3.5 (average) to his rolls he is now rocking on average a +2 to that saving throw which means on average he is looking at a 13+ to pass most saves even at level cap, and there are things he can do to make that even better.  Also just because he starts with low wisdom doesn't mean he needs to stay there.  Yes the strongest of all monsters in the book will be able to mess with his head...you min maxed him to have that score/wrote that weakness into his story...sorry that the weakness you gave him came up in the story...However up until those strongest monsters in the book even the fighter with an 8 wisdom can be doing just fine on wisdom saves for the bulk of the game.  Seriously look at what monsters are tossing out before you start running around on this topic.
Again a 12 wisdom or charisma (you apparently need both now or you will be screwed by a Save or Die), means you only have a 35% chance of making a DC 15 save. You get an ability check every round to end the effect (not a saving throw so no bonuses from anything other than your ability score LOLl!) means on average you will be unable to act for 5 rounds if you fail your saving throw. Most fights don't even last that long.


How does that math work?

Witha 35% chance each round to succeed, you have a 72.5% chance to save within three saves, which is two rounds (your initial save on the caster's turn and then two saves on each of your two turns).  You'll be free in time for your third action after being dominated.  The likelihood of you failing six DC 15 saves in a row (whcih is what would be required to go "5 rounds" without acting) is 7.5%.

Here's a Wisdom 14 character's chance to fail all his preceding DC 15 saves based on the number of saves.

  1. 65%

  2. 42.25%

  3. 27.46%

  4. 17.85%

  5. 11.60%

  6. 7.54%

Simple math shows


I'm not sure how you are performing your calculations.  Since you only need to make one save, the formula for a 35% the fail-to-save chance is .65n, where n is the number of saves rolled.

Even a Wisdom 8 character has the following fail to save chance against DC 15.

  1. 75%

  2. 56.25%

  3. 42.19%

  4. 31.64%

  5. 20.57%

  6. 15.42%


Everyone has more than a 50% chance to be free by their third save.

And as Sleeps mentioned, most save DCs for pre-10th level encounters are in the 12 and 13 range.

A -1 mod to DC 13 save is the same chart as for the Wis 14 character above.
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