created a new class, need opinion

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hello everyone, i will play my first game in a few weeks and i have to create my character but i cant find my alter ego!! my favorite class would be like the prestige class deepwood sniper, a mix of ranger/rogue/stealthy/nature. i love the ranger, but i dont think i want to bother with spells for my first game and it is not stealthy enough. and the rogue is very stealthy, but more urban hehe

so basically i created a class and would like your feedback to see if it is balance and fair, not overpowered

class skill would be:
balance
climb
craft
hide
jump
knowledge nature
knowledge dungeonering
knowledge geo
listen
move silently
search
spot
survival
swim
use rope

it would level like this
1 sneak attack (d6) (within 30ft) feat
2 evasion
3 sneak attack (2d6)
4 track
5 sneak attack (3d6)
6 trap finding
7 sneak attack (4d6)
8 uncanny dodge
9 sneak attack (5d6)
10 trap sense
11 sneak attack (6d6)
12 camouflage
13 sneak attack (7d6)
14 trap sense +2
15 sneak attack (8d6)
16 hide in plain sight
17 sneak attack (9d6)
18 trap sense +3
19 sneak attack (10d6)
20 fast movement, extra feat

i would still get the feats at level 1, 4, 8, etc

what do you think??

Francois
I'll just start out by saying that asking "to see if it is balance and fair, not overpowered" is a poor place to start.  All of those things require some assumptions and if that assumption is that you need to play an optimized wizard or cleric (or the like) then I can safely say HELL NO to those questions.  You are also missing a few key pieces when looking at a non-spellcasting class.

What are it's HD, BAB and Save progressions, and how many skill points does it get? 

Now all of those concerns aside I would not allow it even without taking a good look at it.  Why?  Because you're just reinventing the wheel.  What your "request" has me thinking of is simply some Rogue/Ranger multiclass character along with a few of the variations that are already out there.  I also look at that and think about the Scout.

To summarize:


  • You do have enough information listed.

  • Balance, fair, and overpowered are all relative terms

  • Your class seems like it is just trying to do what can already be done. 

thank you for taking the time to help me, you are completely right i forgot a few things

for the BAB, and the saving throws, i will use the same progression of the rogue/scout 

for the skill point, it will be the same thing, rogue/scout progression

for the rogue, the problem is the class skills, they are too urban and INT oriented skill (bluff, diplomacy, etc)


about balance, fair and not overpowered, by that i am just trying to say that i am willing to give up some skills and special ability to go with a character that i will REALLY enjoy playing, since i am not a pro with DnD i was just making sure my character is not too powerfull compared to the other classes yet not too weak also

thanks again

Francois
Please read the following.

On the Philosophy of Class Design - if you read nothing else, please read that.
Unearthed Arcana - Wilderness Rogue - Basically what you're trying to create.

That's all I can say that Steven didn't already cover, really. 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

If it is "all about the skills" I really have a hard time seeing it.  I'm looking at the Rogue skill list which is just "missing" your Knowledge skills and Survival.  A level in Ranger easily makes those class skills and unless I'm missing something major those four skills usually see limited use in games.  I don't want to look it up but I suspect that every one of those skills can be taken from the Scout class.  Just because a Rogue has all of those "urban and CHA oriented skills" (fixed your INT to CHA for the skills you listed) that doesn't mean you need to put ANY ranks into them.  That would leave you just as clueless using them as someone who does NOT have them as class skills.

After looking at your skills your "special abilities" look like a cut/paste from Rogue with a few things shuffled around for a couple Ranger abilities.  Again it reminds me of what I recall a Scout's list of abilities looking like.

Now with the basic Rogue stats your class can probably work but then it is also so similar to the Rogue that even an more detailed look at your character sheet would make it hard to distiguish that class from a Rogue.  You should take a look at those things Tempest linked (I don't have them saved anywhere) and know I'm just trying to inform you.
I'd say you're looking at it the wrong way by trying to treat it as a new class, Frank.  What you are really doing here is creating a wilderness variant for the rogue, in the same sort of way that there are urban variants for the druid and ranger.

There is even an existing Wilderness Rogue variant (from Unearthed Arcana) which does almost exactly what you're attempting.  You can read the details of it here.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
other points that many people forget. You can take more then one class and you can, in some limits, redefine the fluff of a class. The wilderness rogue was allready named, but you could also go for a rogue/ranger combo. or the classical scout/ranger with the swift hunter feat. ranger are also very goos at stealth, by getting camouflage and hide in plain sight. If you dont want to bother with spells, there is a spell-less ranger variant in Complete Warrior.
Just in case you aren't following the link, because three other people have also mentioned it, here's the Wilderness Rogue.

Rogue Variant: Wilderness Rogue


The wilderness rogue prefers to put her skills to use in the great outdoors, rather than in cramped alleys and dungeon corridors. In many ways, she is similar to the traditional ranger, though with less combat savvy and with none of the ranger's divine link to the natural world.


Class Skills

Remove the following rogue class skills from the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Appraise, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Forgery, and Gather Information.


Add the following skills to the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival.


Class Features


The wilderness rogue has all the standard rogue class features, except as noted below.


Special Abilities

Add woodland stride (as the 7th-level ranger ability), camouflage (as the 13th-level ranger ability) and hide in plain sight (as the 17th-level ranger ability, requires the rogue to already have the camouflage ability) to the list of special abilities that can be chosen by the wilderness rogue.


For what it's worth, we've made use of a wilderness rogue in our optimization showcase before (Quiet Murder) while other builds can easily be wilderness-friendly (Flip the Bird; just don't use the Cityscape substitutions and it's pure wilderness/rogue themed). That's what's already possible with the existing rules, and those rules are what anything you create will be compared against.

Basically, if you're looking to create a new class, the first thing to do is ask if you need it. For a class to be good, it needs to fill a mechanical/fluff niche no others do (more mechanical than fluff, since fluff is completely what you make of it), and it needs to be mechanically unique. What you're looking for - a rogue with wilderness skills - is neither of those.

Don't take this as a put-down - it isn't. I'm just trying to provide constructive criticism.  

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

All of that said (and they are good points)-- your class isn't going to be a problem in most typical games if you and your DM want to go with that specifically.  There are a few alternate rules that allow you to essentially put together your own class and this isn't far off of that or the actual existing variants. 

You would likely end up with a slightly more powerful character using some of the variations mentioned above though, if that is a concern for you.
Just a note. You gain feats at every third level (3, 6, 9), not fourth.
guys, i just found an AWESOME class! im very surprise no one talked about that class before, the wilderness rogue!! LOL joking i didnt know that class guys! thats awesome thats exactly what i needed!!! all that work for nothing Tongue Out haha

thanks again everyone for all your feedback

quick question, should i pick improved initiative for my first feat or i can go ahead and pick point blank shot?

Francois 
Just a note. You gain feats at every third level (3, 6, 9), not fourth.



hallelujah!!! thats even better!!
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />quick question, should i pick improved initiative for my first feat or i can go ahead and pick point blank shot?

Francois 



If you're planning on a ranged specialist, I wouldn't bother with Improved Initiative-- ranged combat can be fairly feat intensive.  You might want to aim for crossbow sniper incidentally.  That will double the distance of your ranged sneak attacks and give you some Dex to damage.
perfect thanks again!!