Our questions and feedback

A) Request for Clarification:


  1. Spot vs Search: When searching for tracks, Is it spot or search? We had a sizeable argument about this on our table. Search (INT) is supposed to be for specific things, Spot (WIS) is supposed to be for easily missable things and out of place things within the environment. When a character is searching for tracks, does it go under spot or search?

  2. Sneak Attack - I asked this earlier, but the language isn't clear so I'll restate it. I was under the assumption that Sneak Attack itself was an attack, NOT a modifier for an attack. IE Sneak attack would be chosen instead of isolated strike or backstab. I have since been told otherwise, and believe it. Please correct wording to remove possible confusion

  3. Hit Dice is not properly explained. Coming from what I understand, it's basically your level, so when you rest, you spend up to your level's amount of dice to heal. This is correct, right? Hit dice isn't explained. I assume this will appear in an intro explaining things such as dice jargon, but just throwing it out there for now.


B) Notably missing:


  1. Traps/Trapping skill - Our ranger wanted to lay a trap, but we couldn't figure out which skill it was. We just house ruled that it was missing in playtest and should come in the ranger skillset anyway. Should it be a feat (making abush traps for combat), should it be a skill, How should traps be handled in general? We just used the character's roll as the DC for the victim

  2. One Handed stats for Katana. Where are they?

  3. Shooting under range penalties. Using a longbow at melee range should get a penalty, right? Did I miss it?

  4. List of Lores to purchase

C) Errata

  1. As mentioned, please clarify the sneak attack language

  2. Padded armor has disadvantage to stealth.... why? I think this is a mistake

  3. Magic missles indicates you may target up to three targets. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be one targer per missle. Otherwise, when you gain other missiles, you'd be stuck on three targets.

  4. Dual Wielding indicates that you no longer need a light weapon on the off hand if you get this feat. However, in the 'How to play' section, the requirement of a light weapon isn't mentioned.

  5. Martial Arts - I assume that if you have martial arts, it should also be considered that you have 'dual wielding' feat for your hands for the purpose of purchasing further feats IE "Two-Weapon Strike"


D) Mechanics comments



  1. I'm enjoying the expertise dice mechanic. So much so that I suggest them for every vanilla class except clerics which have their channel divinity mechanic. Mages should use their expertise mechanic to enhance their spells. Make feats like Maximize and Energy Admixture be worth a certain number of expertise points. Mages roll their expertise dice and spend the number of points they have available to enhance their spells. Specialist Mages (if/when introduced) would get less expertise dice and/or no expertise dice to compensate. Rogues could use it to modify their skills see my other topic:
    community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

  2. I am enjoying the advantage/disadvantage mechanic, but there is no real explanation of how much of a relative bonus/penalty you need for the DM to get advantage/disadvantage. For example, normally getting cover gives a mechanic of increased AC, but at what point does the attacker's rolls get disadvantage, if ever? Does being 10 feet higher than a target give advantage for a ranged attack? 20? 30? Do you need a wall too? I know ultimately it's the DM's decision, but some guidelines would be appreciated

  3. In one turn, you get one move and one action. Why not just say two actions. Why not let players/monsters attack twice if they want? Of special note is ranged fighters who would rather just stay still and throw more projectiles down. Of course this would require things like RoF, but pretty simple. Longbows 1 per action, shortbows 1.5 per action (rounded down makes it 1 if you decide to do something else) crossbows 1 per action.

  4. Sneak attack, backstab, isolated strike is starting to look broken as they can stack on ANY attack action. My min/max brother is now combining it with charge. That now allows him to move his normal move his normal move, then charge and get benefits of sneak attack and backstab/isolated strike. because of the wording of the skills and because sneak attack/backstab/isolated strike isn't attack actions

Spot vs Search: When searching for tracks, Is it spot or search? We had a sizeable argument about this on our table. Search (INT) is supposed to be for specific things, Spot (WIS) is supposed to be for easily missable things and out of place things within the environment. When a character is searching for tracks, does it go under spot or search?

The easiest guideline for this is to look at who's initiating the check. If the player is saying "I want to know if I find X.", then that's Search. If the DM is saying "I want to know if the players notice X.", then it's Spot. Essentially, Search is proactive, Spot is reactive.

Sneak Attack - I asked this earlier, but the language isn't clear so I'll restate it. I was under the assumption that Sneak Attack itself was an attack, NOT a modifier for an attack. IE Sneak attack would be chosen instead of isolated strike or backstab. I have since been told otherwise, and believe it. Please correct wording to remove possible confusion

Sneak Attack already says "Once per turn, if you do not have disadvantage when making an attack..." That's all the wording they need to let you know that it's done as part of any other attack, not as an attack all on its own, because it triggers "...when making an attack..." If it were supposed to be an attack all on its own, it would say something like "As an action, you can make a single attack..."

Hit Dice is not properly explained. Coming from what I understand, it's basically your level, so when you rest, you spend up to your level's amount of dice to heal. This is correct, right? Hit dice isn't explained. I assume this will appear in an intro explaining things such as dice jargon, but just throwing it out there for now.

I'll agree on this one; I like the concept they're using, but the wording could change. There's just too much history behind the term "Hit Dice", it's too easy for those who played 3e, 3.5 and Pathfinder to get confused.

And yes, you're right: my 5th level Fighter has 5d10 Hit Dice, and I can spend any number of them to heal that much, plus my Constitution bonus per die. So, if my constitution is 14, I could rest and then spend one Hit Die to heal 1d10+2, or I could spend three Hit Dice to heal 3d10+6, or any other combination of Hit Dice.

Traps/Trapping skill - Our ranger wanted to lay a trap, but we couldn't figure out which skill it was. We just house ruled that it was missing in playtest and should come in the ranger skillset anyway. Should it be a feat (making abush traps for combat), should it be a skill, How should traps be handled in general? We just used the character's roll as the DC for the victim

This is just a case of "The game isn't finished yet." Traps aren't a huge part of player actions, as relatively few players care about being able to set traps, so they just haven't come up with rules for it yet. They'll probably have some guidelines before the final release. Until then, I suppose it's up to the DM to make a judgment call.

One Handed stats for Katana. Where are they?

Katana were not, traditionally, wielded in one hand; most of them were meant as two-handed weapons. However, if you really want a one-handed katana, just use the stats for the Rapier and rename it: it's a one-handed, 1d8 Finesse weapon, so it works perfectly. Just change the type to Slashing and you're set. (If you want to play a badass dual-wielding katana warrior, then a pair of renamed Scimitars are a perfect fit. Naming your character Musashi is optional, but highly recommended.)

Shooting under range penalties. Using a longbow at melee range should get a penalty, right? Did I miss it?

Nope, there is no longer a penalty for shooting in melee range. I agree that this is a mistake: the fact that you can't properly fire close up is the main balancing poitn for the fact that you can shoot people hundreds of feet away without reprisal. In older versions, you suffer Disadvantage to the attack roll if you try to fire a ranged weapon while an enemy was adjacent to you. I'll be keeping this rule for my game.

List of Lores to purchase

They have a list, it's in the "Gaining Skills" section, on the first page of the "Backgrounds and Skills" PDF.

Padded armor has disadvantage to stealth.... why? I think this is a mistake

It's not an error, though I do think it's a mistake. Mechanically, it has Disadvantage because it's the same AC value as Leather, but cheaper, so they wanted to give a reason that people would choose Leather over Padded armor. Thematically... I guess it's more restricting, or something? Not sure of their reasoning on that.

I'm enjoying the expertise dice mechanic. So much so that I suggest them for every vanilla class except clerics which have their channel divinity mechanic. Mages should use their expertise mechanic to enhance their spells. Make feats like Maximize and Energy Admixture be worth a certain number of expertise points. Mages roll their expertise dice and spend the number of points they have available to enhance their spells. Specialist Mages (if/when introduced) would get less expertise dice and/or no expertise dice to compensate. Rogues could use it to modify their skills.

They tried this before, with maneuvers for martial classes. The point is the the Fighter needs something that is only theirs, something other classes don't get. That's Expertise Dice. Other classes don't get it for the same reason other classes don't get Sneak Attack.

I am enjoying the advantage/disadvantage mechanic, but there is no real explanation of how much of a relative bonus/penalty you need for the DM to get advantage/disadvantage. For example, normally getting cover gives a mechanic of increased AC, but at what point does the attacker's rolls get disadvantage, if ever? Does being 10 feet higher than a target give advantage for a ranged attack? 20? 30? Do you need a wall too? I know ultimately it's the DM's decision, but some guidelines would be appreciated

This is deliberately left vague. Advantage/Disadvantage is meant to be (mostly) the DM's call. They leave it up to you to decide how much Advantage or Disadvantage you want to throw out in your game: using a lot of Advantage and only a little Disadvantage, for example, can create a very high-flying, action-adventure hero-fest, while using more Disadvantage than Advantage makes for a grimmer, grittier game where the odds are often stacked against you. Advantage and Disadvantage are a powerful tool for making your game feel the way you want your game to feel.

In one turn, you get one move and one action. Why not just say two actions. Why not let players/monsters attack twice if they want? Of special note is ranged fighters who would rather just stay still and throw more projectiles down. Of course this would require things like RoF, but pretty simple. Longbows 1 per action, shortbows 1.5 per action (rounded down makes it 1 if you decide to do something else) crossbows 1 per action.

The main reason is power, the very close secondary reason is simplicity and speed of play. First, if you could fire multiple ranged attacks per turn like that, ranged weapons would dominate play. Everybody would be an archer so they could get multiple attacks, and everybody would run for cover and then shoot at each other twice per turn until one side loses. And then one spellcaster would join the fray, use two Fireballs in one turn, and suddenly everybody's playing a Wizard instead of an archer.

Second, one action per turn means that each turn goes by more quickly, and there's less decision paralysis among players. And it would be multiplied, not added. For example, let's say you have 5 different abilities that you could use on your turn. If you get one action, you can choose from among those 5 things. If you get two actions, though, you don't have to choose from 5 things to do, or even 10 things to do: suddenly there are 25 possible combinations of actions that you could take. If you have 10 possibilities (as many spellcasters would), then suddenly you have 100 possible combinations for your turn. This would drastically increase the amount of time taken for each turn as people try to decide the best actions to take, and that is very much against the goals of Next, which include streamlining play and allowing for faster combats, so more fun can be had in a single session.

A) Request for Clarification:


  1. Spot vs Search: When searching for tracks, Is it spot or search? We had a sizeable argument about this on our table. Search (INT) is supposed to be for specific things, Spot (WIS) is supposed to be for easily missable things and out of place things within the environment. When a character is searching for tracks, does it go under spot or search?

  2. Sneak Attack - I asked this earlier, but the language isn't clear so I'll restate it. I was under the assumption that Sneak Attack itself was an attack, NOT a modifier for an attack. IE Sneak attack would be chosen instead of isolated strike or backstab. I have since been told otherwise, and believe it. Please correct wording to remove possible confusion

  3. Hit Dice is not properly explained. Coming from what I understand, it's basically your level, so when you rest, you spend up to your level's amount of dice to heal. This is correct, right? Hit dice isn't explained. I assume this will appear in an intro explaining things such as dice jargon, but just throwing it out there for now.


B) Notably missing:


  1. Traps/Trapping skill - Our ranger wanted to lay a trap, but we couldn't figure out which skill it was. We just house ruled that it was missing in playtest and should come in the ranger skillset anyway. Should it be a feat (making abush traps for combat), should it be a skill, How should traps be handled in general? We just used the character's roll as the DC for the victim

  2. One Handed stats for Katana. Where are they?

  3. Shooting under range penalties. Using a longbow at melee range should get a penalty, right? Did I miss it?

  4. List of Lores to purchase

C) Errata

  1. As mentioned, please clarify the sneak attack language

  2. Padded armor has disadvantage to stealth.... why? I think this is a mistake


D) Mechanics comments



  1. I'm enjoying the expertise dice mechanic. So much so that I suggest them for every vanilla class except clerics which have their channel divinity mechanic. Mages should use their expertise mechanic to enhance their spells. Make feats like Maximize and Energy Admixture be worth a certain number of expertise points. Mages roll their expertise dice and spend the number of points they have available to enhance their spells. Specialist Mages (if/when introduced) would get less expertise dice and/or no expertise dice to compensate. Rogues could use it to modify their skills see my other topic:
    community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

  2. I am enjoying the advantage/disadvantage mechanic, but there is no real explanation of how much of a relative bonus/penalty you need for the DM to get advantage/disadvantage. For example, normally getting cover gives a mechanic of increased AC, but at what point does the attacker's rolls get disadvantage, if ever? Does being 10 feet higher than a target give advantage for a ranged attack? 20? 30? Do you need a wall too? I know ultimately it's the DM's decision, but some guidelines would be appreciated

  3. In one turn, you get one move and one action. Why not just say two actions. Why not let players/monsters attack twice if they want? Of special note is ranged fighters who would rather just stay still and throw more projectiles down. Of course this would require things like RoF, but pretty simple. Longbows 1 per action, shortbows 1.5 per action (rounded down makes it 1 if you decide to do something else) crossbows 1 per action.




I think I can address some of those:

Spot is if you notice something without looking for it (probably a secret roll by the DM).  Search is when you say, "I'm looking for X."  (possibly with modifiers if you describe exactly where you're looking.)

Hit Dice: whenever you read that, just substite "Recovery Dice" in your head.  They're the dice you get to roll to heal.  Terrible naming.

Katana: I had to read this again; I missed it the first time.  It seems like this version of the "Katana" is simply a 2H sword that you can use with Dexterity instead of Strength.  That's actually kinda nice.

I think it's funny that you really like expertise dice.  Lawolf is complaining about how boring and simplistic it is.  I'm with you.

EDIT: They should just rename "Sneak Attack" to "Devious".  Make it clear it's a characteristic of your fighting style, not a special kind of attack.

"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
On Expertise dice being only for fighters; I don't see it as just for fighters vs every other class. I see it as an advantage for fighters against other fighter classes. It's what makes it different from barbarians and rangers. The basic differences between martial classes and rogue classes and wizard classes and cleric classes are so varied that expertise dice will not be the deciding factor on choosing them. However, Expertise dice for a wizard vs a specialist wizard will be a deciding factor. So too, Rage vs expertise dice for Barbs vs Vanilla Fighters. It's there to balance with vanilla versions of the same superclass

Other Errata I've added:

1) Magic missles indicates you may target up to three targets. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be one targer per missle. Otherwise, when you gain other missiles, you'd be stuck on three targets.

Other Mechanics:
1) Sneak attack, backstab, isolated strike is starting to look broken as they can stack on ANY attack action. My min/max brother is now combining it with charge. That now allows him to move his normal move his normal move, then charge and get benefits of sneak attack and backstab/isolated strike. because of the wording of the skills and because sneak attack/backstab/isolated strike isn't attack actions
On Expertise dice being only for fighters; I don't see it as just for fighters vs every other class. I see it as an advantage for fighters against other fighter classes. It's what makes it different from barbarians and rangers.

Exactly. That's why it needs to stay Fighter only, because it's the only thing that Fighters get that nobody else gets.

1) Magic missles indicates you may target up to three targets. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be one targer per missle. Otherwise, when you gain other missiles, you'd be stuck on three targets.

Probably true, though I wouldn't be too bothered if it were limited to three targets. By the time you get more missiles, you're likely not fighting a horde of 3-6 HP enemies, and if you are there are better options than Magic Missile to kill a lot of them. I find at later levels, my main use of Magic Missile is automatic damage against large, hard-to-hit or high-HP enemies.

1) Sneak attack, backstab, isolated strike is starting to look broken as they can stack on ANY attack action. My min/max brother is now combining it with charge. That now allows him to move his normal move his normal move, then charge and get benefits of sneak attack and backstab/isolated strike. because of the wording of the skills and because sneak attack/backstab/isolated strike isn't attack actions

Why is this a problem? Your player took a feat to be able to move 60 feet and still attack, so why shouldn't that also include Sneak Attack? It's not like it's any more powerful than before, it doesn't deal extra damage or anything.
The magic missle thing is an errata change, not balance. I know there are better choices at that point.

The sneak/backstab/charge issue breaks the theme of the game as well as breaks quite a few balance issues
1) I'm fairly certain they did not intend to allow 60 feet of movement AND attack. Balance issue
2) Ever try to be sneaky? You kind of have to be silent and move slower. Being able to move double someone who isn't sneaking around is an issue
3) Yes, you do get extra damage. Sneak attack gives lots and lots of extra damage. Compile this with covert strike, and you can literally move and attack 60 feet every round with a bonus of 1d6 at first level and add an extra die of damage every two levels after. This is a pretty broken system.

Really the big culprits to this is
1) Sneak doesn't lower speed
2) Isolated Strike/Backstab/Sneak Attack are modifiers not actual attacks in and of themselves
The magic missle thing is an errata change, not balance. I know there are better choices at that point.

The point is that you're assuming it's errata. It might not be, that could be the intention. You never know.

The sneak/backstab/charge issue breaks the theme of the game as well as breaks quite a few balance issues
1) I'm fairly certain they did not intend to allow 60 feet of movement AND attack. Balance issue

Obviously they did, or they wouldn't have made the Charge feat in the first place. Beyond that, it's not a balance issue: you have archers that can hit targets 600 feet away... you're really worried about a Rogue who can hit them 60 feet away? Honestly, I think Charge should be a baseline option instead of a Feat, as anyone who plans on using melee needs to be able to charge just to be viable.

2) Ever try to be sneaky? You kind of have to be silent and move slower. Being able to move double someone who isn't sneaking around is an issue

But the Rogue isn't just "sneaky". They're also the agile duelist, the assassin, the light skirmisher... Sneak Attack isn't always based on Stealth.

3) Yes, you do get extra damage. Sneak attack gives lots and lots of extra damage. Compile this with covert strike, and you can literally move and attack 60 feet every round with a bonus of 1d6 at first level and add an extra die of damage every two levels after. This is a pretty broken system.

But that doesn't mean that Charge + Sneak Attack is broken. If you think the math of Sneak Attack is off, then that's the problem, not Charge. As to Sneak Attack itself... it's debatable. I don't think it's too bad, since you have to take Disadvantage to use it, giving up a higher chance to hit in return for that damage.

That said, the designers have already said that they're still working pretty heavily on the Rogue, and that this version of it will probably not be anywhere close to the final version. So I'd wait and see what the latest version is, they may have already addressed the issues you're having.

It's likely an errata, hence posted as feedback in assumption that it is. Maybe it isn't, but I'm doing my part if it is.

As fire rogues not needing to be sneaky, my point is there is no real way to justify that while sneaking, there is no way to justify a charge and backstab, possibly done from the front. Thematically, charge shouldn't work with sneak attack and backstab.

And while sneak attack gains disadvantage, being hidden adds it to make it neutral. Then take backstab or isolated strike and you now have a charge attack with advantage, dealing backstab damage. Add covert strike and it possibly becomes an invisible force moving 60 feet per round dealing massive backstab damage every turn.
(On the charging rogue issue) Alot of real life fighting styles are based on deception and basically doing what sneak attack usually describes. Most fighting styles that do this use speed not stealth to do this though. A guy running at you and kicking dirt into your eyes is just as effective as a guy jumping you from behind.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/4.jpg)

JRutterbush say:

The point is the the Fighter needs something that is only theirs, something other classes don't get. That's Expertise Dice. Other classes don't get it for the same reason other classes don't get Sneak Attack.


 I toyaly agrre fur that, the experice dice or another thing similar only for the figther, because others class have mecanics gfr make damage and were something characteristic of the figther and can´y traspassing to another that for example you say the sneak attack of the rogue.


expertise dice is not a mechanic that will win over from thief to fighter. But it may win over someone from barb or ranger to vanilla fighter. It's something that doesn't really matter much between the basic classes.

My issue isn't neccessarily with charge. To be completely honest it makes sense that if you come out of sneak, you can charge. You still surprise the enemy and you should get advantage to charge. My problem is that it compounds with sneak attack and backstab. Thematically, how do you aim for vital centers while charging at a target?

Now we're experimenting with multiclassing rules and after some tinkering we stumbled upon barbarian/rogues. At level nine rogue, you also can get covert strike and 5d6 damage, deadly strike. That's guaranteed advantage on attack rolls, ability to move 80 feet and attack, double weapon +5d6 +2 damage, and a free roll to get back into stealth. All because sneak attack and backstab aren't actual attacks. They are attack modifiers that can be put in other things.

And really, a pure rogue is not much different, just reduce speed to 60 and remove the +2 damage at the end of my math. Even at lower levels, you have a rogue to run around a full 60 feet while getting backstab damage without incurring penalties to move.
Added two more possible errata:


  1. Dual Wielding indicates that you no longer need a light weapon on the off hand if you get this feat. However, in the 'How to play' section, the requirement of a light weapon isn't mentioned.

  2. Martial Arts - I assume that if you have martial arts, it should also be considered that you have 'dual wielding' feat for your hands for the purpose of purchasing further feats IE "Two-Weapon Strike"

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