Two Weapon Fighting

So last night, I was thinking about ways to move Two Weapon Fighting from the Feat Chain side of things and over to the Ability side of things. Now, I'm not a game designer and I have no idea how well the numbers I threw together would work, but the general idea was to provide a simple, coherent system for two-weapon fighting for those people who want to go Featless. I also wanted it to be Class angostic, so that a Rogue/Ranger/Monk/Whoever could pick it up if they wanted.


So here's my proposal-


Two-Weapon Fighting: If you have a Strength or Dexterity score of 16 or higher, you may attack with a One-Handed Weapon in your main hand and a Light Weapon in your off-hand once per round. You do not add your Ability modifier to the damage of the off-hand attack. If BOTH your Strength and Dexterity are 16 or higher, you may use any One-Handed Weapon in your off-hand instead.


Thoughts?
I dislike giving two-weapon fighting ability away, without an associated cost, because it provides an extra attack; which is usually reserved for a mid to high level advancement.

However, if you really want it to be available without Feats:


  • require the Off-hand weapon to be Light and Finesse

  • require the attacker have Advantage on their attack, which must be forfeit to make the second attack

  • no ability modifier to the attacks or damage


Save anything more complex for the Feat.
I understand the complaint, but I was trying to come up with a system that was Featless for those people who don't want/intend to use/allow feats in their games.
I guess, two weapon fighting is quite potent now. As you can decide which attack gets his deadly attack bonus after you know if it hits. So essentially you have the option to take a great weapon, doing xd12 or nothing, or you can use xd6+d6 and have a very high chance to do average damage. I don´t think implementing your strength prequisites to get a little higher base damage is no bad. It makes strength a little more useful for TWF.

However, if you could also play a bit around with light, finesse etc, so that you need equally high dex and strength to make full use of a d8 weapon in the main hand and a d6 weapon in the offhand. (Offhand always uses dexterity to attack, main hand always uses strength, if the weapon is not finesse and light)
I have floated back and forth on two weapon fighting. For most characters, I don't see the current system as a problem. Nuke the spiked shield to only offering 1 AC and give it 1d4 damage, and then it would be fine.

For characters that have Shield Proficiency, they have 3 reasonable options (2 Handed is slightly weaker until Deadly Strike kicks in). I don't like that characters without Shield proficiency have a free second option of 2 weapon fighting. I wish there was a very small penalty to 2 weapon fighting for non-warrior classes to keep this back in balance. Wizards and Rouges should ALWAYS 2 weapon fight, as it is clearly superior.
Exactly, there should be some sort of trade off for the extra attack.

I could accept an attack penalty as well; say -1 to primary attack and -2 to off-hand attack. Although the requirement of Advantage and sacrificing it, that I suggested before, would make untrained two-weapon fighting even more situational; which I like even better.
Why does two-weapon fighting have to give an extra attack?

I am thinking about the classic line from kung fu movies: "It is one weapon in two parts". It could just give a bonus to hit or something. 

That way 2 attacks could be a fighter feat regardless of weapons. Or "if you weild two weapons" of something.

I know it has always been that it gives an extra attack, but that doesn't have to be the case.  
I'd keep it simipler.  Simply remove the stat mod from both attacks.

1d6 * 2   = 7    (but 2 targets).
1d8+3     = 7.5 (+2 AC)
1d12 + 3 = 9.5

*Yes, this means an 8 Str, 12 Dex wizard is better off wielding 2 daggers, but that's fine.


You also need 2-handed and shield feats to match the two-weapon feats.  It's not fair to compair otherwise.

2-handed fighting: score a crit on 19.
Weapon Mastery: reroll your damage die (benifits d12's more then d6's).
Shield Expert: +1 AC with a shield.
ect... 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Penalties (in the form of minus to attack roll) for attacking with two-weapons would be very very bad. Even a -1 is pretty hurtful in a game with BA. The limitations on TWF currently are fine as is. Really, I don't know where this concept comes from that TWF has to be this extremely difficult fighting style to implement. Trust me, it's no more difficult than being a trained soldier in using polearms, sword and shield, or even Two-handed weapon use. No single style is "easy" compared to another. Further, it's fantasy and TWF is a very iconic trope for many characters and players. Forcing penalties and feat requirements for this style to even come close to matching the "apparent" ease of Sword'n'board or 2-handed style is called a Concept Tax. And those are often regarded (by some) as bad.

As for two distinct attack rolls, I think we have some wiggle room for other options here. Since combat in D&D is supposed to be abstract (to some degree) there is a line of thinking that in 1-turn your making several small strikes and jabs to open up an oppenents defenses for the attack that actually connects.  With this narrative element, TWF could just be a simple "add more damage to the base attack". For example, take the Barbarian's Whirling Rend exploit in 4E:

"Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and an enemy adjacent to you other than the target takes 1[W] damage (off-hand weapon)."

Now, there should be some clause that if there isn't an adjacent target then perhaps the first target gets the damage instead. That way, it reduces the amount of time and math involved with a second weapon plus it reduces the chance for additional critical hits (which is probably the most positive element of multiple attack rolls).  
   
Two-Weapon Fighting seems to have a legacy of not quite working right in every edition to date.

Currently, it's lame (the worst yet), what monk is not going to two-weapon fight.
Two-Weapon Fighting seems to have a legacy of not quite working right in every edition to date.

Currently, it's lame (the worst yet), what monk is not going to two-weapon fight.

Monks are kinda set-up to two-weapon fight, with 2 default 1d6 weapons.

IMO, it fit's with the flurry of blows they usually got.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Two-Weapon Fighting seems to have a legacy of not quite working right in every edition to date.

Currently, it's lame (the worst yet), what monk is not going to two-weapon fight.



I dunno, Twin Strike of 4E is often considered one of the strongest At-Will exploits in the game (and really, it's not very hard to obtain outside Ranger either).

As for this version, I don't mind the light-weapon restrictions nor the "no ability mod. to damage of the second weapon" text. Why do you feel this version is the worse yet?


P.S. I wasn't sure if you meant the worse version ever or just so far in this playtest process?   
I kind of like removing stat mod from both attacks. Attack once, get ability mod to damage, attack twice, only get weapon damage. 

I don't really want to impose penalties. The idea was to just put up an Ability barrier to keep it from always being the "best" choice (and to make STR a needed stat).
Why do you feel this version is the worse yet?



Because there is no drawback at all to wielding two light weapons (every rogue dagger fighter or what-have-you will wield two, lame).

And you can't dual-wield non-light weapons, so Drizzt's dad (Zaknafein) can't happen currently, oh, but it seems they made scimitars suddenly light just so people can Drizzt out. 
I kind of like removing stat mod from both attacks. Attack once, get ability mod to damage, attack twice, only get weapon damage. 




I think that's how it was in the 1st packet, another thing it was better at.
Actually, in a game with bounded accuracy, -1 does not hurt that much... I really don´t know, why so many people don´t get that...

it is only in 1 of 20 attacks, where it makes a difference.
If you usually hit on the middle numbers, +1 up or down does not dramatically reduce your damage over time. -1 to hit is much more dramatic if you only hit on a natural 19 or more. A -1 penalty means, that you only hit half as often. So really... a single slight penalty does not hurt, except when you make a lot of rolls.

Admittedly, if you are two weapon fighting, you naturally make 2 attack rolls, so you miss one attack in 10 rounds on average... but given that you attack twice as often, I really can´t see, why you make such a problem out of it.

However, I would rather give someone, who only attacks with a single weapon and without a shield a +1 or 2 bonus to hit. It just fits more nicely with a system that has low attack bonuses anyway. The one weapon free hand fighter should gain something that makes it a solid option.
-1 to hit hurts just as much in a BA games as it does in a non-BA game.
+5 vs 15 AC is the same as +15 vs 25 AC, or +25 vs 35 AC.

The difference is just how many +1's are expected.


I kind of like removing stat mod from both attacks. Attack once, get ability mod to damage, attack twice, only get weapon damage. 

I think that's how it was in the 1st packet, another thing it was better at.

First packet was 1/2 damage on each attack.




guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

-1 to hit hurts just as much in a BA games as it does in a non-BA game.
+5 vs 15 AC is the same as +15 vs 25 AC, or +25 vs 35 AC.

The difference is just how many +1's are expected.


I kind of like removing stat mod from both attacks. Attack once, get ability mod to damage, attack twice, only get weapon damage. 

I think that's how it was in the 1st packet, another thing it was better at.

First packet was 1/2 damage on each attack.




Ah, yes, that's kinda of cool too, was there a packet with the no mod to each attack?

I know there was one where both attacks were at disadvantage, that also caressed donkey-testes.
Why do you feel this version is the worse yet?



Because there is no drawback at all to wielding two light weapons (every rogue dagger fighter or what-have-you will wield two, lame).



Or they wont in lieu of holding something else. A torch is nice, lights the area and can cause things to set on fire (I think Strider illustrated this pretty good in the LotR movie). Or they could be holding a crossbow for ranged attacks. Or a vial of acid or alchemists fire or a black egg or a host of other things that work well with a free hand. TWF is a good option but sometimes people don't play Char_Op and instead goes with what they feel fits the character.  

And you can't dual-wield non-light weapons, so Drizzt's dad (Zaknafein) can't happen currently, oh, but it seems they made scimitars suddenly light just so people can Drizzt out. 



I haven't read The Dark Elf trilogy in over 10 years so forgive me if I don't quite remember what Zak wielded (wasn't it two longswords?) but he might with a Feat or PrC/Paragon path later on. As for allowing Drizzt to become realized via the mechanics, why is this a bad thing? Some people enjoy playing Dual-Wielding Scimitar Drow Rangers and the game shouldn't necessarily make this difficult because there's an apparent hatred for Drizzt-clones.

And TWF-rules have drawbacks (all light weapons, no ability mod to the 2nd weapon) which holds up in line with other options like Sword and Shield and Two-Handed Weapons. TWF isn't the best damage dealer (2H is). TWF isn't the best defensive (Shield users are). TWF is good at spreading around damage to multiple targets (which can also be used by 2H users via Wide Arc). I really don't see a problem so far with the rules as-is.
I don't see TWF being the default choice for rogues as a problem.  What's the matter with anyone who can't wield a 2h weapon or sword and board being best served wielding two weapons (or in the case of the monk, throwing multiple unarmed attacks)?

TWF is only a problem as far as I'm concerned when it's a strictly better option than 2h weapons or sword and board for classes who start with all three options.  If they can bring it to a point at which 2h weapon deals slightly higher, swingier DPR, TWF deals slightly less with a more even distribution and sword and board offers a compelling defensive incentive, that's the sweet spot.  Are we there yet?  If not, how do we get there?
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
I think Zak wielded a short sword and a whip.
Actually, the Dual Wielding Feat allows you to use any one handed weapon in each hand.

However, I'm wanting wanting to go in the other direction.  Let's leave TWF and buff up THF.

But how?
Ah, yes, that's kinda of cool too, was there a packet with the no mod to each attack?

I know there was one where both attacks were at disadvantage, that also caressed donkey-testes.

Not yet.  They did...

1/2 damage
add the |W|'s together.
-2 penalty or something.
no stat to 1 attack.   (and added deadly strike instead of +xd6 expertise damage).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

As for allowing Drizzt to become realized via the mechanics, why is this a bad thing?



I do not want contrived rules in the D&D game just to help emulate one popular rough trade character from the Realms.
Actually, the Dual Wielding Feat allows you to use any one handed weapon in each hand.

However, I'm wanting wanting to go in the other direction.  Let's leave TWF and buff up THF.

But how?

Weapon mastery = reroll dice work better on bigger dice.
Base more things on the die = deadly strike and cleave add more because of the bigger die.


Also nerfing TWF by taking away the mod from the first attack indirectly boosts THF.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If they can bring it to a point at which 2h weapon deals slightly higher, swingier DPR, TWF deals slightly less with a more even distribution and sword and board offers a compelling defensive incentive, that's the sweet spot.  Are we there yet?  If not, how do we get there?



We are about there. I don´t calculate it through, but those 3 option are more or less in line.

One weapon and nothing else is far behind. I don´t know if it is a must, but I think, it could be a little bit improved, since one free hand (with gauntlet) is indeed a workable style. +2 to hit seems to much, as it completely cancels out a shield, but I could imagine a +1 bonus to hit.

For shields, I would maybe rather see imposing disadvantage on a single attacker than a shield bonus when I think about it...
I also liked the twf = 1/2 damage per attack rule. I would just have deadly strike add to both attacks then.
Riposte also favors THF.

The feat support is there for both styles, but the THF support is a little less obvious and a little more situational.  That pleases me, as the benefit of being able to apply your damage more consistently in smaller amounts is less obvious and a little more situational once you get past the levels at which low HD monsters are a daily occurrence.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
I also liked the twf = 1/2 damage per attack rule. I would just have deadly strike add to both attacks then.



I agree with the first part; I think they should merge Deadly Strike and Mulitattack.

I was trying for a clean system that was Class and Feat agnostic. I'd hate to punish Rangers for not having Deadly Strike, but I suppose their spells make up for the difference.

DPR of a 16 Str fighter (+4 to hit at 1) against 15 AC.  Bumping Str, no feats, no expertise dice, no crits (this is enough math).

[sblock TWF equasion]
((1d6+1d6+Mod) * hit) + (DS * (1-(miss*miss)))
=
((7 + mod) * hit) + (DS * (1-(miss*miss)))
=

((7+mod) * hit) + (3.5 * multi)
multi =     0       0.7975   1.755     2.73        3.84
[/sblock]

Level (hit)      1 (.50)      5(.55)    10(.65)    15(.7)      20(.8)
1d8+Str      =    3.75     6.6          11.375     15.4        22
1d6*2(mod)=    5         7.941       13.292     17.255    23.04
1d12+Str     =   4.75     8.8          15.275      21          30


Except for the slight hickup at level 1, that actually doesn't look too bad.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Solution is to first add 2×str bonus to 2Handed attacks and 1×str bonus to both main and off hand attacks.

Also we need back fixed damage reduction (DR).

then 2WF would be vulnerable to DR but would have advantage in applying extra effects with attacks.

with DR of just 5, a 2Handed weapon of 1d12 damage versus 2 weapons of 1d8(with some feats included to wield onehanded in off hand) and ability of 20(+5). damage loss per round would be 16.5-->11.5(-30%) for 2Handed and 19-->9(-53%). And with DR of 10 2WF becomes next to useless.
Solution is to first add 2×str bonus to 2Handed attacks and 1×str bonus to both main and off hand attacks.

I'm actually thinking the other way.

Only add Str/Dex to thf.


Level (hit)      1 (.50)    5(.55)    10(.65)    15(.7)      20(.8)
1d8           =    2.25     4.95        8.775      12.6        18
1d6*2       =    3.5       6.291      10.692    14.455    19.04
1d12+Str   =   4.75     8.8          15.275    21           30 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

What about support for the one-handed weapon wielding non-TWF/shield people.
I personally think deadly strike should have its per turn limit removed and off-hand attack should simply be a reaction that triggers when your main hand weapon hits.

I also think blocking with a shield should be a reaction. This way a spiked shield user has to choose between blocking or striking with the shield.
What about support for the one-handed weapon wielding non-TWF/shield people.

Hmm...  +Mod to damage and  +1 to damage die size?


Level (hit)      1 (.50)    5(.55)    10(.65)    15(.7)      20(.8)
1d8           =   2.25      4.95        8.775      12.6        18          (Sword and board)
1d6*2       =   3.5        6.291     10.692     14.455    19.04     (2 swords)
1d10+Str   =  4.25      7.7         13.325     18.2        26          (sword and nothing)
1d12+Str   =  4.75      8.8         15.275     21           30          (2-handed)


That fit's nicely i think. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

What about support for the one-handed weapon wielding non-TWF/shield people.

Hmm...  +Mod to damage and  +1 to damage die size?




I really like the increased damage die type, nice, elegant, dig.
Use, essentially, the same rules as a two-handed weapon, with some minor tweaks:


  • Base the damage off of the "hurtier" of the two weapons

  • When riders would trigger, pick the riders of one weapon and ignore the other.

I personally think deadly strike should have its per turn limit removed and off-hand attack should simply be a reaction that triggers when your main hand weapon hits. I also think blocking with a shield should be a reaction. This way a spiked shield user has to choose between blocking or striking with the shield.

Spiked shield as 1d4, +1AC.


Level (hit)      1 (.50)    5(.55)    10(.65)    15(.7)      20(.8)

1d4*2       =   2.5         3.368     6.0125     8.575     11.6       (dual spiked shield)
1d8           =   2.25      4.95        8.775      12.6        18          (Sword and board)
1d6*2       =   3.5        6.291     10.692     14.455    20.64     (2 swords)
1d10+Str   =  4.25      7.7         13.325     18.2        26          (sword and nothing)
1d12+Str   =  4.75      8.8         15.275     21           30          (2-handed)


Spiked shiels now has an advantage on killing little things, but otherwise isn't as good as sword and board.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

What about support for the one-handed weapon wielding non-TWF/shield people.



You get the feeling of being incredibly cocky and full of it...and you can grapple more easily Cool

I think you should be able to break up Deadly Strike (and merge it with Multiattack).

So, if you have Deadly Strike (roll three times) and are wielding a long sword, you can:

1) Attack once for 3d8 + Mod damage.

2) Attack once for 2d8 + Mod damage, and once for 1d8 + Mod damage.

3) Attack thrice, for 1d8 + Mod damage.

The caveat is you can't attack the same creature more than once a turn. 


It's what I have been doing since the last packet or two (Expertise Dice), and I can tell you, it feels phenomenal.
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