Dwarf Fighter - Power Attack?

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EDIT/UPDATE: It's been agreed that PA isn't worth it. Currently discussing Plate Prof/Specialization.


I'd like a review of my new character I'm about to start playing in a home game. The others in the party aren't optimized at all ("casual" players you could say), so I'd like to show 'em how it's done and keep them alive. My main role is Striker yet also remain tough enough to not rely on teammates to keep me standing. I'm also trying to reduce the amount of math/work I have to do at the table, specifically, keeping track of situational bonuses (for example, temporary power bonuses to damage), as this has been causing me to either not pay attention during others' turns or my turns take too long.


My main question for CharOp is if picking up the +6 dmg from the Power Attack feat would be worth -2 atk. I read the Power Attack math thread but it made my head spin. I'd also like any suggestions on maximizing the damage dealt with RoS. Any other optimization criticisms are welcome. Current MBA is +21  vs AC; 2d6 +18 cold dmg


Last note, the DM isn't allowing themes or anything from the Dragon Magazines.


==Willkens Widewrists, level 13==


Dwarf, Fighter (Weaponmaster), KenseiBuild: Great Weapon FighterFighter Option: Combat SuperiorityFighter Talents Option: Two-handed Weapon TalentKensei Focus Option: Kensei Focus MordenkradAkanûl

FINAL ABILITY SCORESSTR 23, CON 18, DEX 12, INT 9, WIS 18, CHA 11STARTING ABILITY SCORESSTR 18, CON 15, DEX 11, INT 8, WIS 15, CHA 10AC: 30 Fort: 28 Ref: 22 Will: 24HP: 105 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLSAthletics +15, Endurance +18, Heal +15UNTRAINED SKILLSAcrobatics +5, Arcana +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +12, History +5, Insight +10, Intimidate +6, Nature +10, Perception +10, Religion +5, Stealth +5, Streetwise +6, Thievery +5

POWERS


Dwarf Racial Power: Dwarven ResilienceFighter Attack 1: CleaveFighter Attack 1: Brash StrikeFighter Attack 1: Lasting ThreatHeal Utility 2: Iron ResurgenceFighter Attack 3: Parry and RiposteFighter Attack 5: Rain of SteelFighter Utility 6: Settling the ScoreFighter Attack 7: Trip Up Come and Get ItFighter Attack 9: Jackal StrikeEndurance Utility 10: Enter the CrucibleKensei Attack 11: MasterstrokeKensei Utility 12: Ultimate ParryFighter Attack 13: Anvil of Doom

FEATS


Level 1: Armor Proficiency: PlateLevel 2: Improved DefensesLevel 4: Dwarven Weapon TrainingLevel 6: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise Master at ArmsLevel 8: Devoted ChallengeLevel 10: Tainted Wounds Lasting FrostLevel 11: Marked Scourge Hammer RhythmLevel 12: Potent Challenge Armor Specialization (Plate)

ITEMS


Frost Brand Mordenkrad +3Dwarven Gith Plate Armor +3Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier)Gloves of Ice (paragon tier)Amulet of Protection +2Boots of Quickness (heroic tier)Helm of Opportunity (heroic tier)Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier)Throwing hammer

-Will, Digital Artist

Power Attack is almost never worth using.  Basically, the loss of accuracy costs WAY more damage than the feat gives you back.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Pretty much only worth it for an epic avenger with a fullblade.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
There are actually a number of epic builds (and parties) in which it's useful. I see players attacking with +8 to +14 bonus to hit from a number of Warlord tools, or attacking enemies that have -9 to all defenses, or have their accuracy tweaked to the gills that their attack bonus is higher than the enemy defenses.

But for this fighter in question, I would not go for Power Attack, unless you frequently find yourself hitting on a 2.

For suggestions, I'd probably ditch Tainted Wounds for Superior Will, and ditch Potent Challenge for Improved Initiative.
That's not an epic build, that's party-op - and yes, when you're getting colossal bonuses to hit, Power Attack can be worth it.  In isolation, it almost never is.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Or you can be Gitzerai and take the Storvakal racial Paragon Path. Buy a 18 Str, 12 CON, 12(14) DEX and 12(14) WIS is not a bad array, and they have good racial feats. Still Dwarves are better.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
You have Trip Up instead of Come And Get It as your E7. Change that, there is no reason not to have that power asap.
lol no on Githzerai. Its so not worth a mediocre fighter race and a mediocre fighter PP.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
lol no on Githzerai. Its so not worth a mediocre fighter race and a mediocre fighter PP.


I mean that Githzerai and Storvakal is for avengers, not fighters. But if he take power attack as a fighter and go a striker route instead defender, is doable. Not optimal obvious.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
You have Trip Up instead of Come And Get It as your E7. Change that, there is noreason not to have that power asap.

I was drawn to Trip Up because it's a Free attack instead of a Standard action. The more attacks I can get in each round the better. But the 1[w] to each enemy I agree would be optimal. Okay.

-Will, Digital Artist

So you're entirely giving up on being a defender?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Power Attack is almost never worth using.  Basically, the loss of accuracy costs WAY more damage than the feat gives you back.

I read somewhere that +1 atk is equal to +2 dmg, meaning this feat would even out if it gave +4 dmg (if this equation is true). But at Paragon level with 2H weapon, it's giving +6 dmg. Still not worth it if I only use PA when it's offset with CA, Brash Strike, or Settling the Score?

-Will, Digital Artist

So you're entirely giving up on being a defender?

Yup. The group has a paladin that will be the main defender while I'll be the secondary/backup if he falls. "best defense is a good offense" no?

-Will, Digital Artist

Power Attack is almost never worth using.  Basically, the loss of accuracy costs WAY more damage than the feat gives you back.

I read somewhere that +1 atk is equal to +2 dmg, meaning this feat would even out if it gave +4 dmg (if this equation is true). But at Paragon level with 2H weapon, it's giving +6 dmg. Still not worth it if I only use PA when it's offeset with CA, Brash Strike, or Settling the Score?



No. This is just not true. At all. I don't feel like spelling out the math, but if +1 to hit= +2 to damage, your damage already sucks and you're in need of help. Also, why are you not playing a real striker?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Power Attack is almost never worth using.  Basically, the loss of accuracy costs WAY more damage than the feat gives you back.

I read somewhere that +1 atk is equal to +2 dmg, meaning this feat would even out if it gave +4 dmg (if this equation is true). But at Paragon level with 2H weapon, it's giving +6 dmg. Still not worth it if I only use PA when it's offeset with CA, Brash Strike, or Settling the Score?



No. This is just not true. At all. I don't feel like spelling out the math, but if +1 to hit= +2 to damage, your damage already sucks and you're in need of help. Also, why are you not playing a real striker?

alright, I'll trust you on the math.
I don't like the lack of power choices in the Slayer class, and I have a lot of fun dishing out pain with CC and RoS.

-Will, Digital Artist

You have Trip Up instead of Come And Get It as your E7. Change that, there is noreason not to have that power asap.

I was drawn to Trip Up because it's a Free attack instead of a Standard action. The more attacks I can get in each round the better. But the 1[w] to each enemy I agree would be optimal. Okay.




If you're gonna be a striker, stick with Trip Up. Come at get it is a formidable defender power, but useless when your aim is to kill one single enemy as fast as possible.


Also, using a Gouge + DEX 15 instead of a Mordenkrad would make Rain of Blows 50% better.

While I am not an optimiser, I play this build when I am in the mood for some Dwarven fun.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Tungdin, level 10
Dwarf, Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Build: Great Weapon Fighter
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Shield Dwarf (+2 to Dungeoneering)
Theme: Bloodsworn

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 16, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 10


AC: 26 Fort: 24 Ref: 18 Will: 20
HP: 90 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +13, Endurance +15, Intimidate +12, Religion +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +12, Heal +8, History +4, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Stealth +4, Streetwise +5, Thievery +4

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Bloodsworn Utility: Bloodied Determination
Dwarf Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Fighter Attack 1: Brash Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Cleave
Fighter Attack 1: Comeback Strike
Cleric Attack 1: Healing Strike
Fighter Utility 2: Pass Forward
Fighter Attack 3: Crushing Blow
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter Utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Fighter Attack 9: Thicket of Blades
Dwarf Utility 10: Stone Stubborn

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Master at Arms
Level 4: Initiate of the Faith
Level 6: Novice Power
Level 8: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 10: Toughness

ITEMS
Challenge-Seeking Execution axe +3 x1
Dwarven Plate Armor +2 x1
Cloak of the Walking Wounded +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
====== End ======

While you are looking for something more striker oriented, I find taking the "pressure" off the healer and dealing decent damage quite fun. 


 
Tactics people, tactics. Come And Get It is an awesome clustering power, period. He himself on the damage side gains a Close 1W attack which isn't much per se, but it means stacking up enemies nicely for both the Paladin and any eventual blaster/controller. There is a reason it is rated gold, and it's not only relative to the Fighter's own use.
and after you use it you AP for THICKET OF BLADES !!
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

and after you use it you AP for THICKET OF BLADES !!



And then you get your butt handed to you when all of those bad guys who you just clumped up *around yourself* proceeds to beat you down.

Nice.

He's trying to be a striker.  He needs to focus on one target at a time.  He can take that feat that lets you swap an encounter power after an extended rest, in case the Paladin says "Hey.  I could use some help defending."
Yeah, our defender died that way last adventure (by pulling all of the enemies in one turn)

-Will, Digital Artist

If you really want to be a striker, you want a Gouge (as was mentioned before) and DEX 15 with Rain of Blows. Combine that with enhancement and other boni from magic items and some help from your leader and go to town. Add in Surprising Charge, Boots of the Mighty Charge and a Horned Helm and you'll kill 'em dead. But really, you could just play an actual striker instead.
and after you use it you AP for THICKET OF BLADES !!

I'm genuinely curious why ToB is the butt of so many char-op jokes.
..and continued to argue this point long after many had giving up telling him why he was incorrect in his assumptions.

I think I know who you're talking about. I watched the last thread he made burst into flames faster than the Hindenburg. That being said, what are the arguments against ToB?


Also, just to keep this somewhat relevant: OP, if you want to use the frost package, you'll also need Lasting Frost and Icy Heart.


EDIT: Also, Armor Proficiency is a waste. Scale is fine. High DEX + Hide + Elven Chain Shirt would likely be better though.

Power Attack might have merit if you had rerolls/boosters from other sources too...  Noble Adept Theme.  Insightful Riposte.  Dice of Auspicious Fortune.  Stone of Earth.  Disciple of Divine Wrath.  Etc..  Only takes one successful 'reroll' to offset the botched miss from incorporating Power Attack as your MO.

(Works best if your accuracy is already 90-95%...)

Iirc, there was a thread (think authored by Mellored) where Skill Power -- Insightful Ripose feat proved more valuable for a typical encounter length than other accuracy booster feats.
That being said, what are the arguments against ToB?


It's not a bad power per se, it just wants monsters to cooperate, which they seem to have a tendency not to.
An easy damage bonus for Fighters who want to strike, especially if they multi-attack, is the lvl 2 utility Battle Fury Stance. 
and after you use it you AP for THICKET OF BLADES !!



And then you get your butt handed to you when all of those bad guys who you just clumped up *around yourself* proceeds to beat you down.

Nice.




Joke <------------------WOOSH

           Undrhil
and after you use it you AP for THICKET OF BLADES !!

I'm genuinely curious why ToB is the butt of so many char-op jokes.



A moron thought it was amazing.

So it was Tuesday?


I think I know who you're talking about. I watched the last thread he made burst into flames faster than the Hindenburg. That being said, what are the arguments against ToB?


Also, just to keep this somewhat relevant: OP, if you want to use the frost package, you'll also need Lasting Frost and Icy Heart.


EDIT: Also, Armor Proficiency is a waste. Scale is fine. High DEX + Hide + Elven Chain Shirt would likely be better though.


Do others agree that Plate prof is a waste? Shouldn't I have a high AC if I'm to wade into the sea of enemies as a melee striker?

Also, if I'm to have a higher Dex for Hide or a Gouge, that would mean I'd have to lower another stat like con, or wis, which would either weaken my HP (con) or CC and OA (wis).
I doubt the effectiveness of a Dex-based Fighter, however if someone gives a link to a Dex build to convince me that'd be appreciated.

-Will, Digital Artist

Were those stats rolled or do you have a high point buy value? I've got them plugged into the CB point buy and I'm at like -10 points left. 
Agile superiority substitues dex for wis in combat superiority. 

If you took arena training, you can add your dex to damage rolls until the end of your next turn when you spend your second wind if you take arena fighter's recovery.

This is besides having higher ac and init(without taking wary fighter).

I think I know who you're talking about. I watched the last thread he made burst into flames faster than the Hindenburg. That being said, what are the arguments against ToB?


Also, just to keep this somewhat relevant: OP, if you want to use the frost package, you'll also need Lasting Frost and Icy Heart.


EDIT: Also, Armor Proficiency is a waste. Scale is fine. High DEX + Hide + Elven Chain Shirt would likely be better though.


Do others agree that Plate prof is a waste? Shouldn't I have a high AC if I'm to wade into the sea of enemies as a melee striker?

Also, if I'm to have a higher Dex for Hide or a Gouge, that would mean I'd have to lower another stat like con, or wis, which would either weaken my HP (con) or CC and OA (wis).
I doubt the effectiveness of a Dex-based Fighter, however if someone gives a link to a Dex build to convince me that'd be appreciated.

 After all, CON is not too important and can be dropped in favor of DEX to qualify for the third Rain of Blows attack. Just don't drop STR, and don't drop WIS more than necessary.


DEX secondary fighters are mostly Tempest Fighters and usually less of a defender and more of a striker with lots of multi attacks but weaker OA and Will Defense. If you don't go Tempest, don't go DEX secondary.

Were those stats rolled or do you have a high point buy value? I've got them plugged into the CB point buy and I'm at like -10 points left. 

Yeah, rolled for 'em. It's under the +8 modifer total limit at lvl 1, before adding racial bonuses so it was approved by the DM

-Will, Digital Artist

Sure, but plate prof doesn't get you that. Plate prof is +1, or in real terms, "1 missed attack per campaign arc."


I strongly (yet respectfully) disagree with the 'per campaign arc' part of that statement. I know you may be exaggerating a bit, but I just played a session today where I took 2 attacks that missed at 28 to AC. Additionally, I'd say I get hit on my AC exactly at least once an encounter, which is making me contemplate Plate Specialization for my next feat.

EDIT: I chose Plate because as a Dwarf I'm ignore the -1 speed penalty, and as a 2-H weapon fighter I need to make up for the lack of using a shield.

-Will, Digital Artist

You will get hit on the nose, 1/20 of rolls, you'll be attacked in the AC on about 1/2 of attacks (at least in heroic - it goes down as you go up), so that means that +1 AC makes a difference 1/40 of the times that you are attacked in heroic.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
You will get hit on the nose, 1/20 of rolls, you'll be attacked in the AC on about 1/2 of attacks (at least in heroic - it goes down as you go up), so that means that +1 AC makes a difference 1/40 of the times that you are attacked in heroic.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks

-Will, Digital Artist

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