4/11/2013 CT: "Do you Know the Mushroom Man?"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Command Tower, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.

1. Read this guy's ability
2. Control + F for Phyrexian Dreadnought
3. Dissapointment
1. Read this guy's ability
2. Control + F for Phyrexian Dreadnought
3. Dissapointment



Beat me to it (didn't Ctrl + F) though.

Does anyone know how this interacts with cards with -1 power like Spinal Parasite?  I assume it just treats it like 0, but ever since I read the rulings for Wild Beastmaster everything has been brought into question.

As far as the 6 card question:

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Death's Shadow
Force of Savagery
Corpsejack Menace
Death's Presence
Sadistic Glee

There are plenty of other cool cards to include. 
Well the odd thing is not only does he give Scavange to creatures that don't have it, in most cases even if they have it he makes it cheaper. Example Dreg mangler.
Time to revisit my Golgari scanvenge deck.
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1. Read this guy's ability
2. Control + F for Phyrexian Dreadnought
3. Dissapointment



Beat me to it (didn't Ctrl + F) though.

Does anyone know how this interacts with cards with -1 power like Spinal Parasite?  I assume it just treats it like 0, but ever since I read the rulings for Wild Beastmaster everything has been brought into question.

As far as the 6 card question:

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Death's Shadow
Force of Savagery
Corpsejack Menace
Death's Presence
Sadistic Glee

There are plenty of other cool cards to include. 



Scavenge specifically cares about +1/+1 counters. The ability cannot add +1/+1 counters to another card if you exile a creature card with 0 or negative power. If a card asks for a number to calcualte, but that number would be less than 1, it is treated as 0 even if the number is negative to 0. Wild Beastmaster is tricky, because it's "giving" a value to other creatures equal to its own, but not doing so with counters. Because there are no negative +1/+1 counters, this ruling doesn't affect scavenging a Spinal Parasite; the result, like Vigean Hydropon, is 0 +1/+1 counters.

Edit:

Relevant rules entry:
"107.1b Most of the time, the Magic game uses only positive numbers and zero. You can’t choose a negative number, deal negative damage, gain negative life, and so on. However, it’s possible for a game value, such as a creature’s power, to be less than zero. If a calculation or comparison needs to use a negative value, it does so. If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead, unless that effect sets a player’s life total to a specific value, doubles a player’s life total, sets a creature’s power or toughness to a specific value, or otherwise modifies a creature’s power or toughness.
Example: If a 3/4 creature gets -5/-0, it’s a -2/4 creature. It assigns 0 damage in combat. Its total power and toughness is 2. You’d have to give it +3/+0 to raise its power to 1.
Example: Viridian Joiner is a 1/2 creature with the ability “{T}: Add to your mana pool an amount of {G} equal to Viridian Joiner’s power.” An effect gives it -2/-0, then its ability is activated. The ability adds no mana to your mana pool."

Because a +1/+1 counter doesn't fall into the category where a negative number can be chosen, a positive or 0 value is the only possible outcome. One does not substitute -1/-1 counters, either.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
1. Read this guy's ability
2. Control + F for Phyrexian Dreadnought
3. Dissapointment



Beat me to it (didn't Ctrl + F) though.

As far as the 6 card question:

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Death's Shadow
Force of Savagery
Corpsejack Menace
Death's Presence
Sadistic Glee

There are plenty of other cool cards to include. 

You both beat me to it, and I *did* Ctrl+F.

Phyrexian Soulgorger is about as good as Force of Savagery.

A few less-obvious options:
Tarmogoyf
Boneyard Wurm
Splinterfright
Stinkweed Imp
Golgari Grave-Troll
How are Tarmogoyf, boneyard wurm, splinterfright, stinkweed and grave-troll good to use? They all require creatures in your graveyard which you are exiling for 1+1 counters. Why not use creatures that give bonuses to creatures which have counters on them? Like the saphire drake/rhino from gate crash, or the new guild champion of simic/rakdos?
IMAGE(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a637/Duke-Daemon/impurple_zps3e279094.jpg)
How are Tarmogoyf, boneyard wurm, splinterfright, stinkweed and grave-troll good to use? They all require creatures in your graveyard which you are exiling for 1+1 counters. Why not use creatures that give bonuses to creatures which have counters on them? Like the saphire drake/rhino from gate crash, or the new guild champion of simic/rakdos?



Tramogoyf, boneyard wurm, and splinterfright all have power that is dependant on the number of creatures (or permanent types) in your graveyard even when they're in your graveyard.  So if you have say 5 creature you can scavence Graveyard Wurm for 2 mana for 5 +1/+1 counters.  Splinterfright also constantly mills your library providing more fuel to scavenge.  Likewise, stinky and Grave-troll's Dredge abilities let you put 5 and 6 cards into your library respectively whenever you dredge them.
 

Scavenge specifically cares about +1/+1 counters. The ability cannot add +1/+1 counters to another card if you exile a creature card with 0 or negative power. If a card asks for a number to calcualte, but that number would be less than 1, it is treated as 0 even if the number is negative to 0. Wild Beastmaster is tricky, because it's "giving" a value to other creatures equal to its own, but not doing so with counters. Because there are no negative +1/+1 counters, this ruling doesn't affect scavenging a Spinal Parasite; the result, like Vigean Hydropon, is 0 +1/+1 counters.

Edit:

Relevant rules entry:
"107.1b Most of the time, the Magic game uses only positive numbers and zero. You can’t choose a negative number, deal negative damage, gain negative life, and so on. However, it’s possible for a game value, such as a creature’s power, to be less than zero. If a calculation or comparison needs to use a negative value, it does so. If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead, unless that effect sets a player’s life total to a specific value, doubles a player’s life total, sets a creature’s power or toughness to a specific value, or otherwise modifies a creature’s power or toughness.
Example: If a 3/4 creature gets -5/-0, it’s a -2/4 creature. It assigns 0 damage in combat. Its total power and toughness is 2. You’d have to give it +3/+0 to raise its power to 1.
Example: Viridian Joiner is a 1/2 creature with the ability “{T}: Add to your mana pool an amount of {G} equal to Viridian Joiner’s power.” An effect gives it -2/-0, then its ability is activated. The ability adds no mana to your mana pool."

Because a +1/+1 counter doesn't fall into the category where a negative number can be chosen, a positive or 0 value is the only possible outcome. One does not substitute -1/-1 counters, either.




Thanks, that's how I was guessing it would work, but wasn't sure the exact ruling.  In a similar vein (and I can't think of a card that does this right off) if a card said something like 'T: Target creature gets -X/-X until end of turn where X is ~'s power' and '~'s power was negative would the creature get +X/+X?  Or do the rules not treat double negatives like that?
i don't know

intuitively, I would say no a negative power marks a creature with less power than positive and not enough to count as damage

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From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

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Post #777

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MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

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MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

a pair

IMAGE(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=34833&type=card)
How are Tarmogoyf, boneyard wurm, splinterfright, stinkweed and grave-troll good to use? They all require creatures in your graveyard which you are exiling for 1+1 counters. Why not use creatures that give bonuses to creatures which have counters on them? Like the saphire drake/rhino from gate crash, or the new guild champion of simic/rakdos?



Golgari Grave-Troll has negative synergy with scavenge. As all other creatures with 0/0 printed on them, they are 0/0 anywhere but outside of play.

Lord of Extinction and other Lhurgoyf-like abilities should count themselves as you exile them for scavenge. I say should, but can't be exactly sure, but feel this is the correct judgment.

"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
IMAGE(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=184691&type=card)

hell bent may return to green
After some thought, I think I could build a whole deck around this guy and Lotleth Troll. Lotleth lets you discard creatures, this guy lets you scavenge them, both regen, and Lotleth has trample.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
I was thinking about evasion and this imp

IMAGE(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=292958&type=card)

he's easy to cast and makes a great blocker that kills than fills your graveyard with dredge
and he's common
plus he gets past protection from deathtouch
Woooooo. It's practically like Dredge in Standard, with mulch, and splinterfright, also in standard: A great scavenge target, could be alms beast +6/+6 for 4, reallly doesn't seem so bad, to me.. Naturally unburial rites needs a home in all this mess. A 1 of, of death's Presence A 3/2 for 3, with a relevant dying ability, that can be used for three additional counters later? We have a sac engine. I call on soulcage fiend but in all honestly... I don't know anything about Theros, but I get the feeling, Mushroom Man's gonna have some friends.

Then again, could go the zombies route, and make mono-black zombies, and Blood Artist, splashing green for the guild champion. Mulch, still partially relevant.
friends in a +1/+1 counter tribe deck

blue is great graveyard filler

what i like best about the imp is he functions on his own beyond his utility
How are Tarmogoyf, boneyard wurm, splinterfright, stinkweed and grave-troll good to use? They all require creatures in your graveyard which you are exiling for 1+1 counters. Why not use creatures that give bonuses to creatures which have counters on them? Like the saphire drake/rhino from gate crash, or the new guild champion of simic/rakdos?


Golgari Grave-Troll has negative synergy with scavenge. As all other creatures with 0/0 printed on them, they are 0/0 anywhere but outside of play.

The Troll's synergy is on its Dredge, not its power/toughness. You won't be scavenging the troll, you'll use its dredge to get the scavenge targets on the graveyard quickly.
Instead of drawing a single Death's Shadow or whatever you'll need to put in the graveyard somehow later, you send up to 6 scavengable creatures directly to the grave.

[<o>]
Alright so only have a few things to contribute. first that if you are like me you sent your top six email and if you are like me you made one be an artifact. that does not fit on the parameters set for the column so now i feel like a goblin...

Second; I believe that the best strategy would be one that relied on small criters to scavange en mass and fast one and two drops that like to die, maybe even elf tribal for the mana bump.

my six
gyre sage
tought gorger
recycle/null profusion
phyrexian dreadnaught   death's shadow
primordial hydra

Yes phyrexian dreadnaught should definitly be there too...
A good birthing pod chain, additional sac outlets like sadistic hypnotist. A small reanimation package for the utility buggers probably containing cards like victimize, strands of night and dread return for value.

the problem that comes to mind is one of balance between having a good supply of critters hitting the graveyard, the mana to scavange them, and the bodies to feed them your soylent green

skullbriar, the walking grave and glistener elf are good candidates though the elf is a bit antisocial... 
These are my thoughts, but then again i'm noob here so i need to learn to make my text blue make magic apear.
How are Tarmogoyf, boneyard wurm, splinterfright, stinkweed and grave-troll good to use? They all require creatures in your graveyard which you are exiling for 1+1 counters. Why not use creatures that give bonuses to creatures which have counters on them? Like the saphire drake/rhino from gate crash, or the new guild champion of simic/rakdos?


Golgari Grave-Troll has negative synergy with scavenge. As all other creatures with 0/0 printed on them, they are 0/0 anywhere but outside of play.

The Troll's synergy is on its Dredge, not its power/toughness. You won't be scavenging the troll, you'll use its dredge to get the scavenge targets on the graveyard quickly.
Instead of drawing a single Death's Shadow or whatever you'll need to put in the graveyard somehow later, you send up to 6 scavengable creatures directly to the grave.



It is confusing to list the Troll alongside other cards that merely care about the number of creatures are in your graveyard as Scavenge targets, and none other are dredgey save Stinky.

A better strat than this however is to use a heavy creature build and use Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest and Birthing Pod -- trying to dredge just seems to be doing things the way Jarad or any other BGx deck does it in EDH, or "combo off." At which point, you don't even NEED this as your general. Survival/Shaman works better to find the best cards to Scavenge for precision pumping than dredging does for combo.

(I won't disguise my dislike of trying to fit dredge combos into anything in EDH that's BGx.)
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
Dredge is not strong enough on its own in EDH. and less so in this particular case, survival and pod are what you want for consistency, not all creatures in this deck are food, and not all cards in this deck are creatures.

Don't get me wrong. dredge is good in some cases, my mimeoplasm deck loves it because it has a strong reanimator theme 35+ creatures and all creatures in it are food.

i think this deck requires a lot more resource management, since you only get a few shots (i would play riftsweeper in this deck)     
This + Corpsejack + Lotleth = Opponent enters scoop phase; respond with "Good Game".
Just a quick reminder... this is a Commander article! People who are talking about cards with white and blue in their color identity need to save that nonsense for some jank standard column.
Aluren works really well with green commanders that cost 3 or less. No matter how many times it's destroyed, you can replay it for free at instant speed... cause Aluren doesn't say "from your hand."