Unconscious Rules

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Are there any specific rules about being unconcious? If so where can I find them?

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     The creature is helpless.
     The creature can’t take actions.
     The creature takes a -5 penalty to all defenses.
     The creature is unaware of its surroundings.
     The creature falls prone, if possible.
     The creature can’t flank.

This condition applies when a creature is knocked out, cast into a magical slumber, or otherwise incapacitated totally.
    A creature that has fallen asleep naturally—as opposed to being knocked unconscious by a power or other effect—is unconscious but not totally deprived of awareness; it can use its passive Perception to hear things, but with a -5 penalty.

PHB 277, et al.
furthermore being helpless is a condition all of it's own, meaning that the creature can be subject to the "Coup de Grace" standard action.
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Hmmm, no you can only make a save every X amount of rounds... That almost makes sleep useless.

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Hmmm, no you can only make a save every X amount of rounds... That almost makes sleep useless.



... huh?
Hmmm, no you can only make a save every X amount of rounds... That almost makes sleep useless.



... huh?


Well I was figuring that when you're unconscious you would be able to make a saving throw every round normally. And considering a round is about 6 seconds that isn't much time. And with the Sleep spell the unconscious character makes a save every round. 

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Hmmm, no you can only make a save every X amount of rounds... That almost makes sleep useless.



... huh?


Well I was figuring that when you're unconscious you would be able to make a saving throw every round normally. And considering a round is about 6 seconds that isn't much time. And with the Sleep spell the unconscious character makes a save every round. 



Yes, that's why you Coup De Grace him before he has the chance to make a save.
Typical sleeping (like I'm going to sleep during the night) doesn't generate saves, instead when you get hit it's typical for the creature to wake up.

The power Sleep from the wizard forces the creature to remain unconscious until the target saves against the save ends effect.  This is extremely powerful because it means that your entire party can coup de grace the target before it ever even gets to make a save.  

Other powers like the rogue one Knockout make the target unconscious save ends however also specifies that if the target is hit with an attack it wakes up right after.

Other powers simply make the target helpless (save ends) and so on.  Handing out the unconscious or helpless conditions is amazingly powerful.  A round lasts until everything in the encounter has played a turn then restarts from the thing with the highest initiative.  You only get to make a save normally at the end of your turn unless you are granted a save by someone else, use a power that grants you a save or you have something that removes a save ends effect for example.

I don't think you know how these things really work Felorn which is leading to your confusion. 
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Typical sleeping (like I'm going to sleep during the night) doesn't generate saves, instead when you get hit it's typical for the creature to wake up.

The power Sleep from the wizard forces the creature to remain unconscious until the target saves against the save ends effect.  This is extremely powerful because it means that your entire party can coup de grace the target before it ever even gets to make a save.  

Other powers like the rogue one Knockout make the target unconscious save ends however also specifies that if the target is hit with an attack it wakes up right after.

Other powers simply make the target helpless (save ends) and so on.  Handing out the unconscious or helpless conditions is amazingly powerful.  A round lasts until everything in the encounter has played a turn then restarts from the thing with the highest initiative.  You only get to make a save normally at the end of your turn unless you are granted a save by someone else, use a power that grants you a save or you have something that removes a save ends effect for example.

I don't think you know how these things really work Felorn which is leading to your confusion. 

I know how they work. I just don't see the use in using sleep outside of combat.

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I know how they work. I just don't see the use in using sleep outside of combat.

It is a combat spell. So.. yeah, no, no reason to use it outside of combat.
I know how they work. I just don't see the use in using sleep outside of combat.

It is a combat spell. So.. yeah, no, no reason to use it outside of combat.

Didn't used to be...

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and I don't understand where out of combat vs in combat comes from ?  Nothing in the thread hints to anything related to that, only you saying sleep is useless, which is far from the truth.
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I know how they work. I just don't see the use in using sleep outside of combat.

It is a combat spell. So.. yeah, no, no reason to use it outside of combat.

Didn't used to be...

It also used to only affect 4 HD of creatures, and take an entire round to cast, so it was hard to actually use in combat. 

Now there's no limit to the HD of the targets, it only takes a standard action, and it works on undead, vermin, oozes, constructs, and dragons.  The targets are initially slowed and fall unconscious only if they fail the first saving throw.  With an area burst 2 at long range it is very useful at crowd control.

//the combat vs non-combat arguement is coming from RP applications as it would have been used in 3.5 to get past guards, etc, is my assumption.
oh I see, Felorn is in the wrong forums.  gotcha.
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The other thing to note is that Sleep's higher-level cousin, Slumber of the Winter Court, sleeps for 1d4 hours, no save, wake up on damage, which may be what you're looking for.

But yeah, the value in sleep is not 'KO party wins fight', it's 'KO, party gets to coup de grace a lot then wins fight'.  More interesting, more balanced, more fun for the people who aren't the wizard.

Because save or suck is not so much a thing as it used to be in earlier editions.
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Thank you very much for no longer going with save or die WOTC !
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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If unconscious != dead, then your strikers are doing something wrong.
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I know how they work. I just don't see the use in using sleep outside of combat.

It is a combat spell. So.. yeah, no, no reason to use it outside of combat.

Didn't used to be...

It also used to only affect 4 HD of creatures, and take an entire round to cast, so it was hard to actually use in combat. 

Now there's no limit to the HD of the targets, it only takes a standard action, and it works on undead, vermin, oozes, constructs, and dragons.  The targets are initially slowed and fall unconscious only if they fail the first saving throw.  With an area burst 2 at long range it is very useful at crowd control.

//the combat vs non-combat arguement is coming from RP applications as it would have been used in 3.5 to get past guards, etc, is my assumption.

Well yeah a lot of this. Though it not affecting certain things makes since. it is a level 1 spell. Be just overall the utility of it seems shot in the foot. 

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oh I see, Felorn is in the wrong forums.  gotcha.

Nah I was refering to 4e. I play and enjoy 4e just hate the spellcasting (Though that could be due to some of my misunderstanding of the magic system). I just figured sleep would be more useful if you had a penalty to saves when unconscious, or could only save so often.

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oh I see, Felorn is in the wrong forums.  gotcha.

Nah I was refering to 4e. I play and enjoy 4e just hate the spellcasting (Though that could be due to some of my misunderstanding of the magic system). I just figured sleep would be more useful if you had a penalty to saves when unconscious, or could only save so often.



The problem here is that, in combat, its already too strong.  The penalty to save bit would make a lot of the other penalty to save problems massively worse.  It isn't hard to make it impossible for someone to make the first save for sleep in paragon and giving them an extra boost would only add insult to injury.
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Well yeah a lot of this. Though it not affecting certain things makes since. it is a level 1 spell. Be just overall the utility of it seems shot in the foot. 



That's because 4e wanted to kill the godcasters.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that Sleep works on undead. Under undead in (I think) the glossary of the Monster Manual, it says that undead do not need to sleep. Does that just mean they don't *normally* need to sleep but are still affected by magical Sleep? As in "they don't need to sleep" vs. "they don't sleep"? Seems kind of goofy to me, a bunch of zombies snoring away...
 
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that Sleep works on undead. Under undead in (I think) the glossary of the Monster Manual, it says that undead do not need to sleep. Does that just mean they don't *normally* need to sleep but are still affected by magical Sleep? As in "they don't need to sleep" vs. "they don't sleep"? Seems kind of goofy to me, a bunch of zombies snoring away...
 


Do not need to sleep does not mean immune to magical unconsciousness.  It means don't have to go to bed every night.
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Unlike the previous edition, no monsters are inherently immune to a particular status because of their type or origin, although certain immunities may be common for that type (ex: most undead and constructs are immune to disease and poison).  The only case I can think of where all creatures of a type have an immunity is that undead and constructs cannot be effected by anything that specfies "living creatures", and that is defined under the creature type.

  If a monster is immune to magical sleep or unsciousness, it will specify  Immune: Sleep in the creatures stat box.  Maruts and Helmed Horrors from the Monster Manual are examples of creatures with Immune : sleep.

  (Note: the Sleep keyword is defined as "Powers that cause sleep or unconsciousness. ", so if a power causes "Unconsious" but isn't called sleep, a creature with immune sleep still will not fall unconscious, because the immunity covers both)