Classes, campaign balance and the use of kits.

12 posts / 0 new
Last post
I had a couple of questions that are related:
What is the best balance of classes for a campaign and from which edition?
and
Whats your favorite class? Do you have favorite Kits and what kits work better than the others.
A) It depends on party size and edition.
B) Kits ceased to exist (mostly) once WotC took over.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
As far as kits go, that would be if you played earlier editions. The class questions are for any edition.
Like the screenname, bro.

Ideal party composition?  Hmm, I never had one.  Always liked to have some healing and a Wizzie of some sort.  Never really cared, though.  Like, we always just played what we wanted to and the DM worked with whatever crew we assembled - be they a haphazard assemblage of experiments best left undone or a powergamer's wet dream. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

For a 2e campaign, the Basic 4 was just fine for party composition. In 3e, the best 4-person party is probably God Wizard, Psionic Artificer, Planar Shepherd Druid, and DMM Cleric.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
As draco mentions in 2ed I think the best "balance" is a group with a warrior, mage, cleric, and thief although the warrior's class can vary.  Now depending on what level we're actually looking at and which "kits" are used (or if Player's Option are used) then that could be shaken up and multi/dual classed characters may also be appealing.

For 3e I'm not sure there is a "best balance of classes for a campaign" because there are so many points to balance.  There's also the easy of mutliclassing to consider.  Frankly, draco's suggestion can also work here although "balance" there would be within the party and would weigh heavily on the rest of the system.
Oh, and for 2e kits, I was always partial to the Bladesinger and the Giant-Slayer Rsnger.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Kits: Swashbuckler and Myrmidon, homie.  Pro stuff.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Kit: Militant Wizard. 

I dream of Beer Head Armies.

Autocard is our friend. [c‍]Urborg Mindsucker[/‍c] → Urborg Mindsucker

For 3E, if you want balance, make sure your players are all in adjacent Tiers as defined here:
www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658...

Having a party with Tier 1/2 or 4/5 will be fine, a party with Tier 1 and Tier 5 will be a problem to balance.

2E is just not very balanced. Or you could say they have a weird way of balancing by having some classes be powerful at low levels while others are powerful at high levels. Same thing with Races and other things.

Bladesinger and Myrmidon are indeed very powerful Kits in 2E becuase they have mechanical advantages but only roleplaying disadvantages that are often not enforced. If i remember correctly.

It also depends a lot on what rules you do and don't use. For example as a Halfling Thief I hated it when we started using the "Players Option: Combat and Tactics" book. It made my character all of a sudden pretty useles in combat.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Witch: Wizard kit, Complete Wizard's Handbook

Bladesinger: Fighter/Mage kit, Complete Book of Elves

Shadowblade: this was a half-elf fighter/thief kit from Dragon #214, iirc
Love 2nd ed psionics. Little too tough in some cases though
 
Sign In to post comments