Druid...wtf?

Just me or are the Circle of the Moon shapes ridiculously OP at low levels, but then they don't get any better?

Shouldn't the power of the shapes somehow scale with level?

My suggestion(s):

  1. Make stats based on Druid's stats, rather than absolute.  E.g., Cat's Dex = Druid's Wisdom + 2.

  2. Scale +hit and damage with level.  (Cat's 3d6+9 is a lot at level 3, but it's the same at level 20.)

  3. Get rid of "Behemoth" completely.  Whose idea was that?

  4. Special abilities are restricted to certain forms.  (Leaping bears?  Really?)  E.g., Bear could have Debilitating Roar and Bull Rush, Cat could have Sneak and Leap, etc. 

  5. Scaling would eliminate need for "Dire" form, so add a couple more options (e.g. Shark, Eagle, Tortoise, Serpent).

  6. Let druid pick one new shape every X levels, rather than pre-determining order.

  
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Just me or are the Circle of the Moon shapes ridiculously OP at low levels, but then they don't get any better?

Shouldn't the power of the shapes somehow scale with level?

My suggestion(s):

  1. Make stats based on Druid's stats, rather than absolute.  E.g., Cat's Dex = Druid's Wisdom + 2.

  2. Scale +hit and damage with level.  (Cat's 3d6+9 is a lot at level 3, but it's the same at level 20.)

  3. Get rid of "Behemoth" completely.  Whose idea was that?

  4. Special abilities are restricted to certain forms.  (Leaping bears?  Really?)  E.g., Bear could have Debilitating Roar and Bull Rush, Cat could have Sneak and Leap, etc. 

  5. Scaling would eliminate need for "Dire" form, so add a couple more options (e.g. Shark, Eagle, Tortoise, Serpent).

  6. Let druid pick one new shape every X levels, rather than pre-determining order.

  



Your argument tacitly assumes that in 5E class balance (or parity) at each level, is a design priority...based on what I've seen so far, I am skeptical of this assumption.

Given the design goals of 5E the aggregate of all past PHB classes should be present in the 5E PHB: Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Assassin, Monk, Fighter, Warlord, Paladin, Cleric/Priest, Psion, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard/Mage/Illusionist, Bard, and Druid. Add in one or two Gish/variants and call it perfect.

 

Your argument tacitly assumes that in 5E class balance (or parity) at each level, is a design priority...based on what I've seen so far, I am skeptical of this assumption.




I assume you're just being snarky because the balance doesn't seem to be there.  If so, feedback/ideas would be more useful than sarcasm.
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Oh, and in your .sig you forgot Cavalier.  Although I guess technically that was a Dragon magazine class (circa 1983) and not a PHB one.
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
 

Your argument tacitly assumes that in 5E class balance (or parity) at each level, is a design priority...based on what I've seen so far, I am skeptical of this assumption.




I assume you're just being snarky because the balance doesn't seem to be there.  If so, feedback/ideas would be more useful than sarcasm.



Unless you are on the design team...if there was snark in that statement, it clearly wasn't directed at you...but it also wasn't intended to be snarky...

If they don't intend for classes to balance at each level, then arguing that a particular class isn't balanced at a given level just means it falls within the expected parameters. So the real argument that should be brought to your fellow playtesters, and to the design team, is should classes balance with each other at each level? With the Druid serving as a case in point.

I tend to favor that goal myself, but...a lot of players (particularly those who hated 4E) do not. And the direction of the design signals to me which side the design team has taken already...I don't think its accidental.




Given the design goals of 5E the aggregate of all past PHB classes should be present in the 5E PHB: Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Assassin, Monk, Fighter, Warlord, Paladin, Cleric/Priest, Psion, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard/Mage/Illusionist, Bard, and Druid. Add in one or two Gish/variants and call it perfect.

Unfortunately, it is easier to fall back on concepts like BA, or develop what you want and let the DMs sort it out. Which is great for the developers if the DM has an excess amount of time to prepare, but for me those days are long gone.
I dont feel I have to prepare any more for this edition than 3e or 4e. :P
My two copper.
I don't have to do any prep work for 5e at all.

Because my players refuse to touch it.

Most of my group prefer modern games were the game is at least somewhat balanced and coherent.

The druid is just the most recent failure in that regard for 5e.

It's got all the OPness of the cleric plus shape shifting powers.

Also there is some scaling for the moon druid in the form of an attack bonus gained for their beast forms. 
Just me or are the Circle of the Moon shapes ridiculously OP at low levels, but then they don't get any better?

Shouldn't the power of the shapes somehow scale with level?  



Your argument tacitly assumes that in 5E class balance (or parity) at each level, is a design priority...based on what I've seen so far, I am skeptical of this assumption.

bounded accuracy meansd they dont hav to gethat much better

Wow, this board is getting so toxic it's actually impossible to have a discussion.

OP: the power of the different forms scales because of the Dire Beast and Enhanced Form powers. So at level 3, you can turn into a tiger; at level 5, you can turn into a Dire Tiger; and at level 10, you can turn into a Dire Tiger that shoots spines out of its mouth. If you read the Shape of the Dire Beast entry, you'll notice that your damage also continues to scale through level 20, exactly like a fighter's Deadly Strike.
seems good enough. your also casting higher level spells as you level up.
really its a good class
Druids need to have weapon attack bonuses and Deadly Strike like Clerics, and use it for both their humanoid and animal forms (instead of getting it as part of dire shapes). This not only solves the balance issues, it allows them to use weapons somewhat effectively if they want to. The individual shapes also need some adjustments. Right now, steeds do as much damage as bears, cats are stronger than bears, cats and steeds only have 10 Con, etc.

Another problem with druids right now is that the two circles are far from balanced with each other. The few extra spells an oak druid gets don't even begin to compare to all of the stuff that moon druids get. I think that all of the basic shapes should be available to both types of druids, but the moon druid should have exclusive access to the dire form and enhanced form abilities.

Whatever version of D&D I play, I always scrap the druid class entirely and use a house-ruled one so I must say I'm not very interested in how it's gonna be anyway.

No love for the Mighty-Morphing-Friend-of-Nature Hermit-in-the-Woods Friend-of-Nature D&D druid concept.
I like the traditional celtic druid concept (add in a little fantasy: magic) and I make my druids more like the "divine wizards," meaning a full caster who uses divine spells instead; no polymorphing (unless via some spell) or fighting-hybrid like the cleric; more casting abilities.

I find it a lot more interesting than the Friend-of-Nature D&D druid, but I know they'll just not go down that road, so what to do but house-rule as ever...
Druids need to have weapon attack bonuses and Deadly Strike like Clerics, and use it for both their humanoid and animal forms (instead of getting it as part of dire shapes). This not only solves the balance issues, it allows them to use weapons somewhat effectively if they want to. The individual shapes also need some adjustments. Right now, steeds do as much damage as bears, cats are stronger than bears, cats and steeds only have 10 Con, etc.

Another problem with druids right now is that the two circles are far from balanced with each other. The few extra spells an oak druid gets don't even begin to compare to all of the stuff that moon druids get. I think that all of the basic shapes should be available to both types of druids, but the moon druid should have exclusive access to the dire form and enhanced form abilities.

This is the way it already works.

All Druids get the Hound, Fish, Bird, Rodent, and Steed shapes; the Circle of the Moon Druid also gets the Bear, Great Cat, Dire Beast, Behemoth, and Enhanced Form options.

EDIT: Edited for spelling.
Just me or are the Circle of the Moon shapes ridiculously OP at low levels, but then they don't get any better?

Shouldn't the power of the shapes somehow scale with level?
 


Dire Form.  It's basically Deadly Strike, for druids.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
This is the way it already works.

All Druids get the Hound, Fish, Bird, Rodent, and Steed shapes; the Circle of the Moon Druid also gets the Bear, Great Cat, Dire Beast, Behemoth, and Enhanced Form options.



You misunderstood what I was saying. When I said "basic" shapes what I meant was non-dire form, non-enhanced shapes. In other words, I think all druids should be able to turn into bears and great cats, not just moon druids.
This is the way it already works.

All Druids get the Hound, Fish, Bird, Rodent, and Steed shapes; the Circle of the Moon Druid also gets the Bear, Great Cat, Dire Beast, Behemoth, and Enhanced Form options.



You misunderstood what I was saying. When I said "basic" shapes what I meant was non-dire form, non-enhanced shapes. In other words, I think all druids should be able to turn into bears and great cats, not just moon druids.


I can't imagine someone wanting a couple extra low level spells in exchange for the wild shape ability of the Circle of the Moon druids. 

We haven't play tested it yet but it does seem ridiculously overpowered if the Behemoth can dire shape as well.
Cone of Cold and Call Lightning aren't exactly wimpy low-level spells.
This is the way it already works.

All Druids get the Hound, Fish, Bird, Rodent, and Steed shapes; the Circle of the Moon Druid also gets the Bear, Great Cat, Dire Beast, Behemoth, and Enhanced Form options.



You misunderstood what I was saying. When I said "basic" shapes what I meant was non-dire form, non-enhanced shapes. In other words, I think all druids should be able to turn into bears and great cats, not just moon druids.


I can't imagine someone wanting a couple extra low level spells in exchange for the wild shape ability of the Circle of the Moon druids. 

We haven't play tested it yet but it does seem ridiculously overpowered if the Behemoth can dire shape as well.

It will primarily come down to player preference. Many Druid fans like the Celtic druid archtype, instead of the beast companion druid archtype.

I don't see a problem with the difference between the two right now. Time will tell; but I don't predict complaints from the true fans of Celtic druid archtype.
This is the way it already works.

All Druids get the Hound, Fish, Bird, Rodent, and Steed shapes; the Circle of the Moon Druid also gets the Bear, Great Cat, Dire Beast, Behemoth, and Enhanced Form options.



You misunderstood what I was saying. When I said "basic" shapes what I meant was non-dire form, non-enhanced shapes. In other words, I think all druids should be able to turn into bears and great cats, not just moon druids.

The intent is that the Circle of the Oak druid gets its power through spells, not from wildshapes; while the Circle of the Moon druid gets its power from the wildshapes, not through spells. Avoiding a "best of both worlds" OP scenario.

The intent is that the Circle of the Oak druid gets its power through spells, not from wildshapes; while the Circle of the Moon druid gets its power from the wildshapes, not through spells. Avoiding a "best of both worlds" OP scenario.

If it lets them sleep better at night fine as long as teh druid stays intackt and all druids gets some shapechange and spellcasting and spellcasting includes healing fire summoning plant and weather manipulation and divination as long as the Druid stays the Druid were good.
Class names hang over the characters heads... I am sure of it.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Class names hang over the characters heads... I am sure of it.


"You're sure you want to play a Swordmaster named Damocles?"

 

 

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I think most people can agree that the druid is a tad on the overpowered side as of right now.

But back to the original poster, I'm the basic forms are there to provide utility and are not really supposed to "scale". At this point the druid gets spells no matter which circle he has as well as decent class features, so you don't really need the "forms" to scale to be better dmg than the actual martial classes, but currently the druid does better dmg than any of the other martial classes once you start stacking the Ancient Behemoth + Shape of the Dire Beast + Enhanced Form. And when you look at all of that combined I'm sure you'll find that the Bear and Great cat "scale" much better than they should, as a Dire Great Cat with Spine that shoot in a 150 foot cone in front of his face is probably a little too good...

That coupled with the fact that druids get every spell on the spell list while wizards get 1 spell per level tell me that I really hope that either wizards get to start shooting fireballs out of their **** as At-Will abilities or they seriously scale the druid back to something a little more inline with the other classes currently in the playtest. (And yes I think that they should add spell book to every casting class).
Class names hang over the characters heads... I am sure of it.


"You're sure you want to play a Swordmaster named Damocles?"



Not really...  Touche. But it annoys shakespear.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think most people can agree that the druid is a tad on the overpowered side as of right now.

I can agree that it doesnt suck and is actually a wwhole Druid.