Trying to make an Avenger crit-fisher

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I know that there are probably dozens of threads out there for Avenger crit builds, but do to WotC having THE WORST SEARCH METHOD of looking at random crap said in posts instead of looking at post titles, I just can't find anything useful.  So here's what I'm wondering:

I'm trying to make a character that is an Avenger with multiple attacks per round and high crit'ing ability.  The more of both the better.  I want a step by step of what to get at what level, not vague details on "good things to think about."  Explanations on WHY you get said feats/ abilities are always welcome, but not strictly necessary (I can figure out the "why" on my own once I know the "what").  The campaign is currently at lvl 7 and is likely to go up to lvl 21.

This character is being created for someone else in a game I'm DMing.  Neither of us cares about anything but optimization as we are just testing it out.  So if something is absolutely better than another thing, write it down.  Don't worry about "flavor" or "making the character interesting."  I've tried searching the internet with Google and for the most part, I'm either getting builds that are only really designed for after lvl 21 or are conceptual, "think about these things" type of webpages.  I just want a straight answer of "DO THIS!"

Any help would be appreciated,
Thank you
My build that does exactly this.

Kilpatds's Avenger handbook.



Wow.  That is exactly the type of reply that I was looking for.  You're awesome!  Thank you for responding.  I'll look into it and see if I have any questions, but I'm guessing that they are all pretty much going to be answered.

Thanks again for making my search easy.
Ok, I'm getting completely confused with the "Retrain 11" part under the Paragon Tier stuff.  I've never retrained before and have very limited experience multi-classing, so I'm pretty much fumbling around.  I've tried retrianing "Invigorating Pursuit" with "Novice Power" and then went to "Level 11 Novice Power" under the powers screen, clicked on Relentless Stride, but could not find "Finishing Cut" at all.

I also can figure out how to do "At-Will 11: Dual Weapon Attack, replacing Bond of Pursuit" and "Encounter 11: Fox's Cunning."  Could you explain these parts?

For the moment, I'm just checking out the lvl 11 character.  I'm not quite getting the virtues of it.  Granted, it's not fully created yet, but it seems like you jump through a lot of hoops just to get to a point where you're able to get to "Dual Weapon Attack."  And wouldn't "Twin Strike" be better?  At least, that's what everyone else seems to talk about when making a crit-venger.

I guess that I'm getting lost as to what all the multi-classing feats and ability swapping is really doing.
if you're using the online or offline builders, you won't be able to make some of the swaps for this build because they are not recognized as legal choices.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Let me be a bit clearer...

Erachima is using a reading of the benefits of Paragon Multiclassing that exactly follows what it says ... but is rather unlikely to match what it meant.  Specifically, odds are rather good the authors meant "1st level at-will class attack power" for both what you gain and what you lose. However, they didn't use those words.

As a result, Mia will likely cause your DMs cheese meter to peg.  And also tools will break.

On a different topic, bringing any superstriker (Mia, or a rebreather, or one of the good AoE blasters, or a BB/BR spammer, or anything else with Elite-killing encounter novas, and standard killing at-will sequences) to a "real" game is going to be highly disruptive.  Don't do it.

It does seem like this is a non-real game though, so goferit.  Mia's what you're looking for... just don't expect the tools to work right.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Since I'm the DM, I don't mind if this character is over powered or whatnot.  The one requirement for it is that it must be legal within the character builder rules (so if it doesn't work in the program, I won't use it).  The main reason why some of the players want OP characters is tick off a player that we've seen bend the rules to their absolute limit, misinterprit the more absure rules to (always) benefit himself, and/or flat out cheat.  Since it's a public game at a shop, we can't just kick him out, but constantly bickering with him is more frustrating than it's worth.

So in retaliation, a few players have decided to make ridiculously powerful characters, or ones that have extremely special benefits (like multi-rolls, multi-attacks, and crits) just to mess with him and show him what it's like to own his ass without cheating.  As I'm feeling rather vindictive and curious about certain builds, I have no problem allowing those players to try it.  But the thing is, it MUST be a character that is able to be created with the builder, and it MUST follow the rules properly.

@Erachima:  I took a closer look at DWA adn you're right, it's much better, not only using Dex for attack, but also adding on the Dex modifier to damage.  I'm not quite getting how to add it in though.  Is it impossible to add without houseruling on the character builder?  If so, do you have any other recommended powers of builds (that seemed to be a cornerstone of that build)?
If you're staying strictly within the CB you're gonna have a LOT of trouble.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I fail to see how that is funnier or more accurate, but whatever floats your boat.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
quoting system blew up.

It's a popular meme.  Surprised you don't know it.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

The Character Builder requirement is just so that, if that cheating player does argue about the build (which will inevitably happen), I'll be able to say that it's allowed by some authority higher than my own (and thus mean that it's not me bending the rules).  But that's irrelevant for the discussion.

Is there a good alternate build?  I liked Erachima's (from what parts I could do/understand), but if there's another build that doesn't stretch the rules and require houseruling, that would be best.  If not, how would I houserule the DWA into the build?
to be honest, the real problem here is that you're doing this for the wrong reasons.  You're doing this to get revenge on someone who's a ****.  Don't be a **** yourself, wheaton's law applies here.

If your group doesn't like a specific player, then don't play with that player.  You all have free will after all.  Just kick the player out, it's a public shop, but you guys are still playing a game as a group and if there's a problematic element like a player who cheats or doesn't get along with everyone else then you have to remove that problem or resolve it.  Try having a group talk about it at the start of your next session isntead of doing this passive-aggressive stuff that won't solve the problem but instead make it worse.  Deal with it as a group but in the open, this is a game meant to be enjoyed.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

The main reason why some of the players want OP characters is tick off a player that we've seen bend the rules to their absolute limit, misinterprit the more absure rules to (always) benefit himself, and/or flat out cheat.  Since it's a public game at a shop, we can't just kick him out, but constantly bickering with him is more frustrating than it's worth.

Talking and/or not playing with the guy is likely the right answer.  In game approaches to out of game problems have a really really poor success rate.
So in retaliation, a few players have decided to make ridiculously powerful characters, or ones that have extremely special benefits (like multi-rolls, multi-attacks, and crits) just to mess with him and show him what it's like to own his ass without cheating.

You're not looking for Mia then, you're looking for ye-olde dead Tiefling/Genasai werebear BB/BR spammer.  And a rebreather.  And a pretty box-stock morninglord invoker.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

The main reason why some of the players want OP characters is tick off a player that we've seen bend the rules to their absolute limit, misinterprit the more absure rules to (always) benefit himself, and/or flat out cheat.  Since it's a public game at a shop, we can't just kick him out, but constantly bickering with him is more frustrating than it's worth.

Talking and/or not playing with the guy is likely the right answer.  In game approaches to out of game problems have a really really poor success rate.



+1. If everyone basically has an intervention with him, saying to the effect of, "We're happy to play with you if you go along with the social contract, but we'd rather not play with you if you're going to continue doing what you're doing."

And if you're DM, you should have better options than just accepting what he says. i.e.
Say to him that you'd strongly prefer that he tone it down. If he doesn't do that, make rulings about what you think is legal or illegal and don't allow time to discuss during game, but only afterwards. You think he's misinterpreting a rule? Rule against it and clarify after the game whether or not you're right. And put your foot down if you think after the game that he's misinterpreting even if he insists that he's right and he says CharOp said so and that as DM, you don't have the right to change rules.

At some point, he's going to get the idea that his choices are to better conform with the group, either willingly or unwillingly or to find a new group.
Half-Elf Avenger, Dilettante Twin Strike, MC Fighter, PP Draeven Marauder, dual wield trident/short spear.
2 attacks of 19-20 crit range at-will, at level 11. It's not that great, but it's not horrible either, and is the earliest expanded crit range I can find that is easy to work with (for an avenger). slap on a frost package and go to town. as a side benefit, 100% char builder legal too.
Bane of Gnomes. "An angel of snuggles is a bad match for evil gods." -Mike Mearls (Worlds&Monsters, p.72)
You'll be better starting fighter and mcing avenger for that.
also, if you're going to do passive aggressive in game stuff, wouldn't just flat murdering his character be better? You're the DM, just kill his character, repeatedly, until he gets the message.

I mean, clearly discussing these things is the right answer- tell him he has to get approval for cheese before he pulls it out, tell him he's ruining everyone's fun and as the DM it's your responsibility to do something about that, tell him he's got to play essentials characters until he proves he can act like an adult.

actually, I really like that last one.
I actually wonder if the player is a intentionally cheater, or if he's just an obnoxious rules lawyer who thinks the Builder is a rules source. There's a lot of people who are distanced from RAW because of that mistake, or just because of a poor grasp on english.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Rebreather(s) might be the answer here.  1 of them is deadly, 2 of them in the same party might as well be playing a different game.  Mia is amazing but takes a lot of quirky rules to get it to work right.  The Rebreather works via character builder with some very minor tweaks (for instance the attack bonus and damage doesn't scale properly because of the way it is coded.  Even without those it is still a great build which you should not play to its fullest.)

If you bring a Rebreather to a table do so at your own risk.  I say this because the attitude that goes with playing a rebreather to break everything you see is the same attitude that destroys friendships. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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So in retaliation, a few players have decided to make ridiculously powerful characters, or ones that have extremely special benefits (like multi-rolls, multi-attacks, and crits) just to mess with him and show him what it's like to own his ass without cheating. 

As others have said, this probably isn't the best way to go.

If you don't want to be quite as confrontational as some of the other suggestions, you could also just decide on a new time to meet and not clue him in. Pretty much anything is better than passive-agressive ego-bruising.

You may also get some good suggestions over in the "What's a DM to Do?" forum.
So in retaliation, a few players have decided to make ridiculously powerful characters, or ones that have extremely special benefits (like multi-rolls, multi-attacks, and crits) just to mess with him and show him what it's like to own his ass without cheating. 

As others have said, this probably isn't the best way to go.

If you don't want to be quite as confrontational as some of the other suggestions, you could also just decide on a new time to meet and not clue him in. Pretty much anything is better than passive-agressive ego-bruising.

You may also get some good suggestions over in the "What's a DM to Do?" forum.


Unsurprisingly, I strongly disagree. Now, I personally prefer honest confrontation with someone I believe is cheating, but the proper response certainly isn't "well lets be nice to him and have tea and biscuits". Oh, and changing the meeting time/place without telling one of the players is about as passive agressive as you could possibly be, it certainly works (just ask LDB), but don't be a hypocrite.

Gamers often have fragile ego's ... but power gamers usually don't, and who cares about the feelings of a cheater? Creating super powerful characters to 1-up a munchkin is A. Cathartic, B. It sounds like an ego-busting is needed, and C. You're still left with awesome characters no matter what happens.

People seriously need to man up and stop pretending that gaming groups are precious rarities anymore, this isn't the 90s where we have to tolerate the people that make us miserable just to get our game on unless you PUG at a convention, and even there you have options.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Creating super powerful characters to 1-up a munchkin is A. Cathartic, B. It sounds like an ego-busting is needed, and C. You're still left with awesome characters no matter what happens.


And then they create an even more powerful character to match yours, and it's off to the arms-races while the rest of the table just wants to play a normal game of D&D. Can't say I agree with you here, at all.
But they don't. This isn't just the OP wanting to do this, it's the table, that's why he's looking at multiple characters, as was stated.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Since I'm the DM, I don't mind if this character is over powered or whatnot.  The one requirement for it is that it must be legal within the character builder rules (so if it doesn't work in the program, I won't use it).  The main reason why some of the players want OP characters is tick off a player that we've seen bend the rules to their absolute limit, misinterprit the more absure rules to (always) benefit himself, and/or flat out cheat.  Since it's a public game at a shop, we can't just kick him out, but constantly bickering with him is more frustrating than it's worth.

So in retaliation, a few players have decided to make ridiculously powerful characters, or ones that have extremely special benefits (like multi-rolls, multi-attacks, and crits) just to mess with him and show him what it's like to own his ass without cheating.  As I'm feeling rather vindictive and curious about certain builds, I have no problem allowing those players to try it.  But the thing is, it MUST be a character that is able to be created with the builder, and it MUST follow the rules properly.


Emphasis mine. It's not the table, it's just a couple of players. 

If the table is devolving into match between a few players who can bring the most ridiculous character to the game, the right thing for the DM to do is dig a little deeper and bring the underlying issues to light.

If he follows his own route, he's only enabling the munchkin and encouraging the rest to do so as well by practically forcing them to bring an overpowered character. Because if they don't, they might as well not even be there during combat. And forcing players to follow a certain playstyle is really bad form. 
Haivng players use certain type of character is part of the social contract on both sides. You don't want a game with 4 players: Mia, Sparky, a cavalier and a sentinel each of the latter having taken linguist for all their feats. You can run your game wherever you like on the optimisation scale, but all the PCs have to be near each other on that scale or things will be less fun for everyone.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Haivng players use certain type of character is part of the social contract on both sides. You don't want a game with 4 players: Mia, Sparky, a cavalier and a sentinel each of the latter having taken linguist for all their feats. You can run your game wherever you like on the optimisation scale, but all the PCs have to be near each other on that scale or things will be less fun for everyone.


Unless you have a previously decided agreement that some players are just tagalongs for RP scenes, and the other players are just tagalongs for the combats. This isn't 4e's design intent, and most players will get upset with not being meaningful the majority of the time (and other players will get upset with the RP characters not being meaningful in combat ...). But it does work for a couple other game systems, so it can work for 4e -with planning-
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
That's quite the hypothetical table you've got there. What are those other game systems that use this model?
That's quite the hypothetical table you've got there. What are those other game systems that use this model?


The closest equivalent I can think of is Shadowrun, where the decker can be nearly useless except for the scenes where they're decking (and vice versa).
yeah shadowrun is a very good example of what Zathris is describing.  And from my experience, it doesn't actually cause problems unless players don't understand how shadowrun works.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

So it's like, extreme specialization? Indeed something that you need full player buy-in for.

Sounds like a form of 4e where only strikers deal damage, only controllers inflict status effects, only defenders are/should be attacked, and where leaders only heal, buff and grant attacks. Or like Zathris proposes, an even more extreme variant where some players don't even participate in combat or skill challenges. Quite the opposite of the philosophy on which 4e is built.

(what was the thread topic again?)
how to make a crit fishing avenger.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

That's quite the hypothetical table you've got there. What are those other game systems that use this model?



In addition to the infamous Decker Problem, it can come up in basically anything that uses pointbuy with a heavy specialization requirement: that diplomat's concept may not be possible to purchase at chargen on the same character as one that can fight worth anything.

Unless you're playing Exalted.  Sure, that Eclipse might not be able to fight his way out of a wet paper bag, but he doesn't have to when he can just talk the bad guys into performing seppuku then and there. Tongue Out

Yes, but why would you play Exalted? Ever?
A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
Yes, but why would you play Exalted? Ever?

To see if 3rd ed. fixed all the brokenness from 2nd ed.?  When it comes out, anyway.  Besides, the occasional bit of over the top anime-style craziness can be fun.

Yes, but why would you play Exalted? Ever?

To see if 3rd ed. fixed all the brokenness from 2nd ed.?  When it comes out, anyway.  Besides, the occasional bit of over the top anime-style craziness can be fun.



Doubt it. The second part, yes, but there are other systems for that.
A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
Yes, but why would you play Exalted? Ever?

To see if 3rd ed. fixed all the brokenness from 2nd ed.?  When it comes out, anyway.  Besides, the occasional bit of over the top anime-style craziness can be fun.



Doubt it. The second part, yes, but there are other systems for that.

True, but it's still fun on occasion to say "Heavenly Guardian Defense!" when I get hit during a game session and there's someone at the table I know played Exalted.

A lot of game systems. And I didn't mean "utterly useless outside their niche", simply someone has to play Sam, or Collette, or Bulma, whose job in combat is "Try to contribute in a way that also makes you not die becaues we're going to need you to Talk/look pretty/yell at someone later." These characters are often placed opposite the "protagonist" from a socially oblivious berserker. It's actually really really trope in cartoons.

V:TM and W:TA when dealing with the ever present "can't let people find out we exist" issue is very much a "These characters are fighty, these characters are talky, and these characters are thinky." Sure, a Ragabash can shoot someone, but it's highly unlikely he's spent nearly as many points in Firearms as the Galliard of Arhoun spent in Brawl/Melee. West End's d6 system, Star Wars d20, d20 Modern, Spycraft ... You basically need Face, Murdoch, Hannibal, and BA. The system that particularly stands out for me is L5R where Bushi, Shugenja, and Courtiers optimize by spending just enough points in cross-role skills to be able to let the luck of the system bail out a poor roll by the specialist and otherwise try to be as out of the way as possible when not doing "their scenes"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Collette


I hated having to bring her.  hated.  Most hated character in that entire game, so completely transparent and soulless and that's before she actually lost her soul.

The only good part about her storyline was that the game let you dump her.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Collette


I hated having to bring her.  hated.  Most hated character in that entire game, so completely transparent and soulless and that's before she actually lost her soul.

The only good part about her storyline was that the game let you dump her.

What game is that?

I actually became happy when "plot" made her stop talking, but that rapidly was replaced with even greater fury when she wouldn't stop talking anyway afterwords. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ahh.  Most recent JRPG I've played is (the beginning of) Hyper Dimension Neptunia.  The characters are amusing so far, at least.
Meh, details.
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