Optimizing Lightning Lure?

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It seems like there may be some fun to be had by extending the range on the swordmage at-will lightning lure, since the pull distance is unlimited. The ultimate extension would be with the 30th level feature of Cosmic Soul to make it range sight, for the ultimate "get-over-here" move. Earlier than that, Moonbow Prelate can increase the range by 5 in paragon, but that requires using a shortbow as an implement as a swordmage...and right from heroic a superior implement with the distant property will boost it 2 squares range...

But what would benefit most from being able to yank a single enemy adjacent to you from whatever distance? Swordmages themselves don't really benefit much since they prefer to mark and run, so perhaps on a hybrid, or half-elf something with dilettante...

Or is this a completely pointless idea? Or otherwise outdone by something else? 
Pulling Enemies off Buildings (relevant in basically every ELTU mod and half of the others). With my Heroic regular SM, I had a mostly melee party (rogue, barbarian, druid, ranged ranger) so I found it extremely helpful to have Lightning Lure.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Pulling Enemies off Buildings (relevant in basically every ELTU mod and half of the others). With my Heroic regular SM, I had a mostly melee party (rogue, barbarian, druid, ranged ranger) so I found it extremely helpful to have Lightning Lure.




I didnt think you could pull people off of ledges with this because it says it doesnt work if you can't pull them next to you; or is that just refering to the open squares next to you?
Pretty sure he's still pulling them next to him. It's not cool because he's making them fall off the building - it's cool because he's delivering the artillery to a pack of melee strikers.
Pretty sure he's still pulling them next to him. It's not cool because he's making them fall off the building - it's cool because he's delivering the artillery to a pack of melee strikers.



Forced movement ends after the saving throw to determine whether the creature falls is resolved (RC, p. 213). I'm not really sure how that interacts with the special clause of Lightning Lure.
I killed Aleena.
A 1st level trick!  Just requires Lightning Lure and Arcane Familiar (Falcon).

Hunting Falcon: Once per encounter, you can determine range for your ranged arcane attacks from your falcon until the end of your current turn.
Soaring Spirit: A falcon familiar has a range limit of 40 squares from you.

Locate an enemy upto 43 squares (215') away, send your Falcon to within 3 squares of the target and pull

As to actual uses for this?
Separating 1 enemy from a group, so you have 3-5 rounds to fight them solo
Pulling people through Hazardous Terrain/damaging zones
Pulling people off ledges
Pissing off physicists
Hostage Rescue
Party Trick
A 1st level trick!  Just requires Lightning Lure and Arcane Familiar (Falcon).

Hunting Falcon: Once per encounter, you can determine range for your ranged arcane attacks from your falcon until the end of your current turn.
Soaring Spirit: A falcon familiar has a range limit of 40 squares from you.

Locate an enemy upto 43 squares (215') away, send your Falcon to within 3 squares of the target and pull

As to actual uses for this?
Separating 1 enemy from a group, so you have 3-5 rounds to fight them solo
Pulling people through Hazardous Terrain/damaging zones
Pulling people off ledges
Pissing off physicists
Hostage Rescue
Party Trick



Except that is the sort of thing that no DM will allow. You may find your familiar starts to get attacked a lot.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Except that is the sort of thing that no DM will allow. You may find your familiar starts to get attacked a lot.

I'd absolutely "allow" that (always sounds like nonsense to say I'd "allow" the rules to work).

Attacking the Familiar is perfectly legitimate though and they are kind of fragile.
To allow the course of events to occur. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
To allow the course of events to occur. 

Except it isn't up to the DM whether the rules work. I'm not allowing anything. I'm playing 4e. Just like my players.
When did I ever say that the rules did not work, I just said that I would prevent the course of events stated above from working, which I am able to do perfectly within the rules.

And of course it is up to the DM wether the rules work, if you are not playing LFR. Even if sometimes the choice is between 'play the DM's house rule' or 'don't play'. Without the DM there is no game and if he chooses to change the rules somewhat (even on a rules dispute that isn't grey), there is no higher authority to which to appeal.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
When did I ever say that the rules did not work, I just said that I would prevent the course of events stated above from working, which I am able to do perfectly within the rules.

And of course it is up to the DM wether the rules work, if you are not playing LFR. Even if sometimes the choice is between 'play the DM's house rule' or 'don't play'. Without the DM there is no game and if he chooses to change the rules somewhat (even on a rules dispute that isn't grey), there is no higher authority to which to appeal.

Rule zero doesn't exist in 4e. So... no, you're wrong, you're no longer allowed to be a dick within the rules as a DM. Socially, sure, you can be a dick, and I doubt that'll ever change.
Except the only way that any game functions is by social convention. That's true of game, whether it be magic, settlers of catan, 4e, heroquest or warhammer. You don't need a codified rule 0 to make that the case. If a DM changes a rule and you can't convince him that it doesn't work that way, there are two options: you play or you leave. Just because you are objectively correct on your RAW doesn't mean that your power works unless the DM says that it does.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Except the only way that any game functions is by social convention. That's true of game, whether it be magic, settlers of catan, 4e, heroquest or warhammer. You don't need a codified rule 0 to make that the case. If a DM changes a rule and you can't convince him that it doesn't work that way, there are two options: you play or you leave. Just because you are objectively correct on your RAW doesn't mean that your power works unless the DM says that it does.

Social convention is not the rules. Your contention was you're allowed to be a dick within the rules. You were wrong. It is one of the best design decisions of 4e to tell DMs they are not arbiters of the rules. Since that is part of the philosophy behind the development of 4e, it is always slightly comical when people want to pretend they have some justification for being dicks, when the reality is they no longer do.

Like I said, you can be a dick, but you can't justify it with the rules. You seem to be well on your way to finding new justifications though.
I showed a way to not allow the course of events within the rules? Just kill the familiar - I don't even need an attack roll, there are plenty of monsters with aura damage or effect damage.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
I showed a way to not allow the course of events within the rules? Just kill the familiar - I don't even need an attack roll, there are plenty of monsters with aura damage or effect damage.

You said "And of course it is up to the DM wether the rules work". It isn't true in 4e, unless you want to go outside the rules and be a dick. Not sure where you got confused on your position.
My position is that one can stop that particular course of events within the rules.

My position is that any game is based on social convention. This means that if you don't agree on the rules (whether they are RAW or not) then the game cannot function. If the rest of the party (including the DM) wants to play a houserule, you can play that rule or you can leave. 

My position is that playing not 100% RAW isn't necessarily "being a dick".

I don't see how this contradictory or complicated.

Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Except that isn't what you said. See quote.

A game ceases to be that game if you don't play by the game's rules. The game is its rules. So, no, you can't play a game by houserules and still be playing that game. That you can play a different game with different rules is irrelevant.

Arbitrary DMs are dicks. Your position was that it is OK for a DM to be arbitrary. A concept done away with in 4e.

Clearly.
Except that isn't what you said. See quote.

A game ceases to be that game if you don't play by the game's rules. The game is its rules. So, no, you can't play a game by houserules and still be playing that game. That you can play a different game with different rules is irrelevant.

Arbitrary DMs are dicks. Your position was that it is OK for a DM to be arbitrary. A concept done away with in 4e.

Clearly.



You are aware that DMG on page 189 has a whole section on how to implement houserules, right? Labeled 'Creating House Rules' no less.

Including specifically giving DMs the right to change things that the DM disagrees with how the rules handle outcomes and giving DMs the 'authority to do whatever (they) want with the game'...
Its all good guys, I get paid to DM so I'm right
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You are aware that DMG on page 189 has a whole section on how to implement houserules, right? Labeled 'Creating House Rules' no less.

Including specifically giving DMs the right to change things that the DM disagrees with how the rules handle outcomes and giving DMs the 'authority to do whatever (they) want with the game'...

You are aware the DMG also says to put any rules dispute or houserule to a vote and go with the consensus, right? Thus removing the ability for DMs to be arbitrary as a standard expectation. The latter advice far outweighs the former in the DMG. Add in the fact that they intentionally removed Rule 0 as a concept during development and you see a very different philosophy behind 4e.

 The most common way is not letting the rules work the way they say they do, confusing expectations. Being arbitrary is unfun, the difference is when I make it not fun for my players, I lose my income, whereas other tables might put up with it but still hate it. It gives me a valuable insight that many people lack.
Oh I'm sorry I was talking about myself, but if you want to take the entire conversation back to you, thats cool too.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Its fine to be so absorbed in yourself. You just can't expect for everyone anyone to play along.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Its fine to be so absorbed in yourself. You just can't expect for everyone anyone to play along.

Not on your game tonight, I see.
You are aware that DMG on page 189 has a whole section on how to implement houserules, right? Labeled 'Creating House Rules' no less.

Including specifically giving DMs the right to change things that the DM disagrees with how the rules handle outcomes and giving DMs the 'authority to do whatever (they) want with the game'...

You are aware the DMG also says to put any rules dispute or houserule to a vote and go with the consensus, right? Thus removing the ability for DMs to be arbitrary as a standard expectation.



Feel free to quote a page number, because it most certainly doesn't say any thing of the sort in the Creating House Rules section.

It specifically says this:
"More important, do the other players agree to the need for a change? You have the authority to do whatever you want with the game, but your efforts won’t help if you have no group."

i.e. if you make house rules up that sufficiently annoy your group, you may not have one. Which is basic common sense. But as DM, you do indeed have the absolutely clear authority to make any kind of rule change, arbitrary or not, that you feel will improve the game. And if you do and the group that you ultimately want playing with you keeps playing with you, then there's no problem as per RAW of DMG. It is of course better to aim for consensus among the group, but if as DM, you feel you need to impose a rule for whatever reason, then you most certainly have the authority of the DMG to do so.

More importantly, that is the essence of Rule 0. They just didn't call it that because they wanted to emphasize that creating house rules should aim for the benefit of the group having fun rather than the slightly more adversarial position of DM in 3e.
And here I thought I'd be reading about cool at-will OP >_> 

Anyway, using a Symbol of Divine Reach is another easy way to increase the range a bit (+enhancement). Coupled with the Falcon, you can turn your SM into quite the at-will battlefield rearranger. 
Edit: Never mind.  I got so caught up in the argument I'd forgotten that the OP specifically called out superior implements with the Distant property.

A straight swordmage or any non-fighter would be able to mark the opponent this yanks adjacent, so there's that.  Lightning Lure is also an at-will, so it meets the pre-req for White Lotus Riposte.  And there's plenty of party OP that can revolve around having an enemy in a square adjacent to an ally. 

It's like having an avenger teleport a foe-of-choice in to the middle of team melee.
Using a distant holy symbol pretty awesome. What holy symbol-using class hybrids well with Swordmages and can make good use of long-range Lightning Lure? Cleric and Paladin seem prime contenders, unfortunately I have next to no knowledge of how optimized versions of those classes work.
Invoker is the only one that gets any use out of INT.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Afaicr, the only divine character that has int as a primary or secondary is retvenger...

You could just be a SM or SM|Lock and MC paladin or cleric for their implement proficiency.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Invoker is the only one that gets any use out of INT.


Invokers don't get holy symbol prof for some strange reason. 

Hybrid SM|Lock MC divine indeed seems like the cheapest solution, feat-wise. Though investing 2 feats in getting range 5+ LL is too much IMO. 
I thought that there was a generic rule for moving an enemy into difficult terrain.  If you do, the enemy can choose to make a saving throw in the square before the danger (cliff edge, molten lava, zone of acid, etc.).  If they fail the save the rest of the movement happens along with the bad stuff; if they succceed on the save they are knocked prone and the movement stops.

Is this right?  It is how my group plays this out and it works nicely.  You can either throw a guy off a cliff or knock them prone; both are very much worth doing.
You mean hazardous terrain. It doesn't include unfriendly zones btw.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
While there's an important distinction between "difficult" and "hazardous" terrain, yeah that's correct.

But throwing a guy off a cliff with a pull power implies that you're either standing on the other side or are flying in the air, so that won't happen a lot in this case. It's more useful to drag an enemy controller or lurker next to you and your melee buddies. 
Not with the wonders of non-euclidian geometry

==|m==
=x|===
==|x==
==|p==

m = monster
| = cliff edge
x = route of pull
p = PC

If both you and the monster are standing on a cliff edge, you can pull him over the edge because that square would be closer to you.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
To clarify, I think the scenario being discussed is a guy on the ground pulling someone off a nearby rooftop or ledge.

But is a cliff/rooftop/etc hazardous if you're pulling the enemy safely to the ground? There is no falling involved since the forced movement takes it all the way to a square adjacent to the swordmage. Or does this run into the same issues that prevent you from sliding someone up into the air? The movement must be in a square that the enemy could move into normally or something - don't have my RC handy.

Certainly you can move someone off the edge of a cliff, but once he's in a square that can't support him, does he then fall immediately or can you keep moving him?
Hybrid Swordmage | Battlemind.  Drag something close and then staple it in place.  Add as many Catch-22 effects as possible.

Partial Build


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Staple, level 10
Genasi, Battlemind/Swordmage
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid) Option: Aegis of Shielding
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid) Option: Hybrid Encounter Power
Hybrid Talent Option: Swordmage Warding
Versatile Expertise Option: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise Option: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
Elemental Manifestation Option: Magmasoul

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 20, DEX 10, INT 20, WIS 13, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 16, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 13, CHA 8


AC: 21 Fort: 21 Ref: 20 Will: 18
HP: 89 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +15, Endurance +17, History +15, Religion +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Athletics +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Nature +8, Perception +8, Stealth +5, Streetwise +4, Thievery +5

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Magmasoul Genasi Racial Utility: Flowing Magma
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Battlemind Feature: Mind Spike
Swordmage Feature: Aegis of Shielding
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Swordmage Attack 1: Chilling Blow
Battlemind Attack 1: Twisted Eye
Swordmage Attack 1: Lightning Lure
Battlemind Attack 1: Steel Unity Strike
Battlemind Utility 2: Telepathic Challenge
Battlemind Attack 3: Lodestone Lure
Swordmage Attack 5: Swordmage Shielding Fire
Swordmage Utility 6: Armathor's Step
Swordmage Attack 9: Troll Rampage
Swordmage Utility 10: Impenetrable Warding

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Versatile Expertise
Level 6: Initiate of the Faith
Level 8: Superior Implement Training (Astral symbol)
Level 10: White Lotus Riposte

ITEMS
Astral symbol of Divine Reach +2 x1
Feyslaughter Longsword +2 x1
====== End ======

 
Hazardous (or better: hindering) terrain is defines as terrain that punishes creatures that are in it or try to enter it.

Now, punishment is not a game term, but if you fall prone when you drop from a roof (even if you take no falling damage), I'd interpret it as punishment. An enemy would rather be prone on the roof than on the ground next to the characters, so he gets to make a saving throw to avoid falling off.
Well Zathris does it, so I'm assuming there's a good argument for it. If forced movement can take priority over falling, then there's no reason the enemy would be knocked prone at the end of the pull.
Pulling Enemies off Buildings (relevant in basically every ELTU mod and half of the others). With my Heroic regular SM, I had a mostly melee party (rogue, barbarian, druid, ranged ranger) so I found it extremely helpful to have Lightning Lure.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Ueah, pull powers and edges do interact a bit weird. Take Fardiz's example from earlier, does the enemy tumble over the edge, or does it continue along the drawn path so it ends the pull safely next to you? And in the roof to ground situation, does the enemy take falling damage from dropping off a roof when the pull ends on solid ground?

I dunno, if the player in question can make a convincing argument for either case and the table accepts it, I'd run with it.
I would assume that gravity is instantaneous (I don't think the rules cover falling very well), so as soon as he goes over the edge he falls and you resolve the fall. You could then continue your pull, but it is unlikely you could pull them back up to you (can't pull in 3D unless the creature can fly and if it could fly, then it wouldn't have fallen).

Edit: Catching Oneself: If a target is forced over a precipice or into hindering terrain, such as lava or a pit, the target can immediately make a saving throw to avoid going over the edge or entering that terrain. If the creature saves, it falls prone in the last square it occupied before it would have fallen or entered the terrain. Otherwise, it falls over the edge or enters the terrain. Once the saving throw is resolved, the forced movement ends.  (RC311)

In my example, it's either prone its original space or it's falling over the edge of the cliff. It can never end adjacent to you (so if that is a requirement, as it is for certain pulls, then the pull would not work that way).

Also: Two-Dimensional: Forced movement is normally two-dimensional; all the squares of the movement must be on the same horizontal plane. (PHB285)

So you pull it horizontally off the edge of the cliff (make sure your non-euclidian geometry is right) and then it falls and gets its save as normal

(Cross section)

MX===
=X===
=X===
=X===
=XP== 

This is not a valid pull and drop.

MX===
=X===
=X==P

This is. Note that force movement ends as soon as the save is passed or failed so the pull does not continue after the fall.

Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein