Deadly Strike, Rage 1st level damage etc...

I am wondering if anyone feels that the damage for Deadly Strike is a little too much. If it was a times per day skill or once per day or even once per encounter, but to allow it each turn is over the top. Why would you NOT use this every single turn?

Rage should not be a switch you turn off. The whirlwind that is a barbarian in a rage is far more interesting if there are more comcequences to using that rage. Otherwise why ever come out of it?

Spell damage is way too high at first level. For an example: Cure wounds used against the undead at first level 

"If  the  creature  is  undead,  it  must  make  a   Constitution  saving  throw.  It  takes  4d8  radiant   damage  on  a  failed  save,  and  half  as  much   damage  on  a  successful  one. "

At first level? Really? seems a bit high don't you think?

Or inflict wounds the Black guard (paladin 1st level spell) 


Inflict  Wounds  

1st-­level  necromancy   The  negative  energy  that  you  channel  instantly   saps  life  from  a  living  creature  or  restores  vigor   to  an  undead  one.     Casting  Time  (Swift):  1  action.  You  can  take   another  action  as  part  of  the  same  action,  but  not   an  action  that  involves  casting  a  spell  or   activating  a  magic  item.     Effect:  Choose  a  living  or  an  undead  creature   that  you  can  see  within  25  feet  of  you.     If  the  creature  is  living,  it  must  make  a   Constitution  saving  throw.  It  takes  4d8  necrotic   damage  on  a  failed  save,  and  half  as  much   damage  on  a  successful  one.     If  the  creature  is  undead,  it  regains  1d8  +  4  hit   points.     At  Higher  Levels:  When  you  cast  this  spell   using  a  spell  slot  of  2nd  level  or  higher,  the   damage  increases  by  1d8  for  each  level  above   1st,  and  the  healing  increases  by  2d8  +  1  for  each   level  above  1st.  

That is ridiculous at 1st level and it is a scaling spell.

The damage I feel is the games biggest shortcoming, coupled with once again a sense of uniqueness to each of the classes. (perhaps it would be better to criticise it by saying, in past editions, previous to 4th, each class filled an integral role. I do not feel that and I miss it.) It allowed for players to have a night where their character really was the star and with luck earned his/her rightful place in the party. 



 




 
Your supposed to use deadly strike every turn (past level 5).  It's the main way your damage scales, which is the main way PC's scale.  You don't get much of an attack bonus anymore, nor do you get multiple attacks.

My only complaint about it is that the damage jumps so drasticly at level 5.  
base, 0%, 0%, 0%, 50%, 0%, 0%, 5%, 25%... is not smooth scaling.


Also, spells do not add stats to damage.  So it's 4d8 = 18 damage, vs the fighters who can do 1d12+3+2d6 = 16.5 each enounter.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Confused things, Disregard
Because at level 1 you can only use 2 per fight unless you choose to not attack

Deadly Strike is a level 5 feature.

Deep Wounds is the level 1 fighter thing.  And yea, that's 2 per enounter.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Because at level 1 you can only use 2 per fight unless you choose to not attack

Deadly Strike is a level 5 feature.

Deep Wounds is the level 1 fighter thing.  And yea, that's 2 per enounter.



Sorry you are correct, and I did confuse them
or Divine Wrath of Channel Divinity for Cleric o Divine Smite of Paladin at level 1.

Divine Wrath
 When you hit with you weapon, expend a use of your chanel divinity to deal
3D1O extra damage to the creature. If you are at leas 11th level the damage increase to 6D10.

Divine Smite
 When you hit with you weapon, expend a use of your chanel divinity to deal
3D1O extra damage to the creature.

And another thing, Why all class have Deadly Strike?. In the figther is logical one  thing that increase the damage because he dont´t have anything for increase this, but that you say is a little too much to for each round and to make damage the choise is decided for the dice of the weapon, i like more in the other packet with Martial Damage Dice where wasen´t important the weapon with you attack . Others class have things that increase the damage, so  is more logical that only figther has Deadly Strike and other class no. One idea for don´t use that you say one turn that  only use for encounter or they have disavantatge o use Martial Damage Dice again, but only the figther.
My comment about deadly strike stands. I didnt say it was a first level skill. I think it is broken.

I am going to limit it to times per day or once per day.

The damage seems off on a lot of spells and skills.

Backstab vs. deadly strike. hmmmmm.
 
backstab and deadly strike are not vs...they are and. You use both at the same time.

What are you comparing damage to when you say damage is too high? If monster HP are in line with the damage and its increase there is no problem is there?  
the problem is Monster HP is not in line. 

(I guess I am wording my query oddly, I apologize) Also why use Sneak attack at low levels, when deadly strike doesn't involve sneaking?

Originally it (deadly strike) was limited with expertise dice. Now it is not, every turn if you hit, you get to do double weapon damage. Ridiculous. To be able to add that to sneak attack is silly.  How much damage does a single character need to make in one turn, for players to be happy? Pc's one-shotting monsters is not dramatic. Damage reduction is meaningless if you have characters doing this much damage in a single non-critical hit attack every turn.  

I have run every edition, I am a well versed DM and will just house rules this, but this is a playtest and my group and I feel that this skill is too powerful, especially without any limitations.
At 5th level many monsters are doing twice, or more, the damage that a 1st level monster did.  A cultist of Asmodeus (Bestiary P.9 4/1 packet) does 1d6 bludgeoning damage + 2d8 fire damage or hurl fire for 3d6 and can attack twice  per round (for a possible 2d6+4d8 with the two successful mace attacks or 6d6 with two successful hurl fire attacks).  Combat is quick and deadly and it is kill or be killed.  With this in mind I don't think that Deadly Strike is too powerful.  

The idea is to have fun short combats so you can move on to the story (and the next combat).
My comment about deadly strike stands. I didnt say it was a first level skill. I think it is broken.

I am going to limit it to times per day or once per day.

The damage seems off on a lot of spells and skills.

Backstab vs. deadly strike. hmmmmm.
 



This is the quickest way to nerf noncasters and the worst idea I have seen since the playtest began.
Deadly Strike is pathetic. I'm glad I ran Mud Tombs with the old damage rules.

The worst thing about DS is now that martial types are pathetic so will have to be the casters. Either that or we're back to CoDzilla and Batman Wizards. 
You can't look at damage in a vacume. It needs to be in comarison to HP. 100 damage is excessive agaisnt 10 HP, but doesn't mean much against 100,000 HP.


But if your complaint is that things die to easily, I agree. IMO, your average enemy should last 4 rounds.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Deadly Strike is pathetic. I'm glad I ran Mud Tombs with the old damage rules.

The worst thing about DS is now that martial types are pathetic so will have to be the casters. Either that or we're back to CoDzilla and Batman Wizards. 



Ridiculous. A fighter with a greatsword at level 20 is doing an average of 38 damage per hit (5d12 + 5), and that's assuming he's not even using a magic weapon. And he can keep doing that damage round after round. Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell, does 42 damage on average (12d6), and a wizard can only cast one of those per day.
for that damage that DS make a mecanic for be limited and not use every round. and be a thing only for figther, other class have powers, spells, skills. etc that increase damage, figther now only Deep Wound for a only 1D6 to damage---with this sure he make a lot of damage
Deadly Strike is pathetic. I'm glad I ran Mud Tombs with the old damage rules.

The worst thing about DS is now that martial types are pathetic so will have to be the casters. Either that or we're back to CoDzilla and Batman Wizards. 



Ridiculous. A fighter with a greatsword at level 20 is doing an average of 38 damage per hit (5d12 + 5), and that's assuming he's not even using a magic weapon. And he can keep doing that damage round after round. Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell, does 42 damage on average (12d6), and a wizard can only cast one of those per day.




Oh noes! The fighter has a stick that does 5d12 damage! That will surely scare the Batman Wizard we'll TO no later than three splats into the edition the way spell design is going on at the moment!
Deadly Strike is pathetic. I'm glad I ran Mud Tombs with the old damage rules.

The worst thing about DS is now that martial types are pathetic so will have to be the casters. Either that or we're back to CoDzilla and Batman Wizards. 

Ridiculous. A fighter with a greatsword at level 20 is doing an average of 38 damage per hit (5d12 + 5), and that's assuming he's not even using a magic weapon. And he can keep doing that damage round after round. Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell, does 42 damage on average (12d6), and a wizard can only cast one of those per day.

Umm...

12d6 * 4 = 168 damage, in an AoE, half damage on a miss, and can do it over a mile.

Fireball does 12d6 at level 9, but that's still in an AoE, and does 1/2 of a miss. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Deadly Strike is pathetic. I'm glad I ran Mud Tombs with the old damage rules.

The worst thing about DS is now that martial types are pathetic so will have to be the casters. Either that or we're back to CoDzilla and Batman Wizards. 



Ridiculous. A fighter with a greatsword at level 20 is doing an average of 38 damage per hit (5d12 + 5), and that's assuming he's not even using a magic weapon. And he can keep doing that damage round after round. Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell, does 42 damage on average (12d6), and a wizard can only cast one of those per day.



So the fighter has to spend the whole fight running up to people and hitting them for less average damage than the wizard laid down on everybody at once on the first turn?  You're right - that is out of whack.  Poor fighter!

Let's pretend for a minute that they both get the same two options.  Let's give the wizard a melee range cantrip (we'll call it Melf's Massive Beatdown) that rolls to hit against a single target's AC, deals 5d12+5 on a hit and nothing on a miss.  Let's also give the fighter an attack he can use once per day (let's call it A Storm of Swords) that targets every creature in four wide areas of effect within a mile of himself, deals 12d6 with no roll to hit, and gives the target the option to save for half.  What wizard in his right mind would bother with his other spells when he could be spending those actions issuing Melf's Massive Beatdown?  How many times do you think the fighter would pass up an opportunity to do his ridiculous Deadly Strike cheese to fart around with his goofy "sword them all at once" attack?


Orange pie sucks; we must nerf apples.   

  
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
Deadly Strike is pathetic. I'm glad I ran Mud Tombs with the old damage rules.

The worst thing about DS is now that martial types are pathetic so will have to be the casters. Either that or we're back to CoDzilla and Batman Wizards. 

Ridiculous. A fighter with a greatsword at level 20 is doing an average of 38 damage per hit (5d12 + 5), and that's assuming he's not even using a magic weapon. And he can keep doing that damage round after round. Meteor Swarm, a 9th level spell, does 42 damage on average (12d6), and a wizard can only cast one of those per day.

Umm...

12d6 * 4 = 168 damage, in an AoE, half damage on a miss, and can do it over a mile.

Fireball does 12d6 at level 9, but that's still in an AoE, and does 1/2 of a miss. 


Its not multiplied by four. Anything covered takes 12d6 damage.... not per covering.

Let's pretend for a minute that they both get the same two options.  Let's give the wizard a melee range cantrip (we'll call it Melf's Massive Beatdown) that rolls to hit against a single target's AC, deals 5d12+5 on a hit and nothing on a miss.  Let's also give the fighter an attack he can use once per day (let's call it A Storm of Swords) that targets every creature in four wide areas of effect within a mile of himself, deals 12d6 with no roll to hit, and gives the target the option to save for half.  
  




Indeed. Let's consider fighter and wizard being 100% equal in damage.

-The fighter will have his tank (when enemy target or when able to force enemies into preferring him over their intended target)

-The fighter will have his Expertise stuff (apart from damage and tank that we listed above) to support the party and do this and that


-The wizard will have all the hard control, soft control, utility, etc. that his spells offer, in and out of combat. We're likely to see a great number of spells returning from previous editions a few splats into this edition.



Draw your own conclusion if equal damage for fighters and wizards will work out in Next. 
the problem is Monster HP is not in line. 

(I guess I am wording my query oddly, I apologize) Also why use Sneak attack at low levels, when deadly strike doesn't involve sneaking?

Originally it (deadly strike) was limited with expertise dice. Now it is not, every turn if you hit, you get to do double weapon damage. Ridiculous. To be able to add that to sneak attack is silly.  How much damage does a single character need to make in one turn, for players to be happy? Pc's one-shotting monsters is not dramatic. Damage reduction is meaningless if you have characters doing this much damage in a single non-critical hit attack every turn.  

I have run every edition, I am a well versed DM and will just house rules this, but this is a playtest and my group and I feel that this skill is too powerful, especially without any limitations.



Part of the issue is that different players/DMs have different expectations of how long an encounter should last or how deadly monsters should be.

Personally, I'm enjoying quicker combats in D&D Next and I've found that most combats with the new playtest package tend to run 1 or 2 rounds longer than they did with the last one using Expertise Dice.   I'm ok with that.   In my last 10th level playtest, a small group of 3 players were able to complete 8 encounters (7 of them combat related some with traps and combat) in 4 1/2 hours (including time to look up spells, roleplay a little and discuss some of the mechanics).  That pace was very satisfying.  The group was plenty scared and eventhough most encounters were just 3 rounders, I was able to soften them up and outright hurt them using traps, environmental hazards and monster spellcasting (area effects and influence spells).  

That said, I also futz with 1 or 2 monsters per encounter to beef them up a tiny bit.   I like giving the leader or main monster in each encounter more hit points and sometimes better armor if it is applicable.   

    

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Let's see, compared to pre-4e editions, wizards in DnDN have suffered some considerable nerfs.

* They have many fewer spells per day, especially at the higher levels. Compared to 3.x wizards, which got bonus spells from high Int, they have less than half as many spells per day! Most importantly, wizards only get ONE spell per day of 6th through 9th levels.

* Many spells are now limited by concentration, so they can't be used at the same time. This prevents most of the powerful combinations that were possible before.

* Spells (other than cantrips) no longer scale automatically with level. If you want your fireball to do more than 6d6 damage, you have to use a higher level spell slot.

* Many spells are far less powerful than they were before. Charmed people remember being charmed and may seek revenge. Dominate, which used to last for 1 day/level, now lasts only 1 hour. The 5th level teleport spell can only take you to a teleportation circle, and only if you know that circle's sigil sequence. The 7th level teleport spell is like the old 5th level teleport, including the chance of miscasting and ending up in the wrong place. There is no equivalent of teleport without error anymore.

I agree with all of those changes, but seriously, what more do you people want? Some people won't be happy until wizards are completely useless.
That you say about wizards is probably true, but i think isen´t here the post to speak about this. Here wii are talking about Deadly Strike, if is too much powerful that every round you add twice damage of weapon o more, that also think need to have something to limited this and be only with figther, Specialization that had in 3.X o Advanced. 
That you say about wizards is probably true, but i think isen´t here the post to speak about this.



Another poster said that deadly strike is "pathetic" and that wizards are overpowered in comparison. I don't think either of those is true. I think deadly strike is just fine as it is, and wizards are not overpowered in general (though obviously, being a playtest, certain things still need some tweaks).
What I'm saying is:

1. Martial types need damage advantage over caster types to be balanced at high levels (look up my previous post)


2. Deadly Strike is a poor way to achieve this advantage in the current iteration 
Deadly strike is pretty much the same as it was in 3.5.

At 5th level a...
3.5 fighter got +6/+1 attacks.  For 1d8+Str+1d8+Str = 2d8+2Str
next fighter get's on attack at  +2 for double damage = 2d8+Str


It's just a bit more "all or nothing", and faster due to not having to roll more dice.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

deadly strike = vital strike from pathfinder. Its not original in any way....and it works, and it means you can use 3.5 adventures with minimal conversion. Using the older MM will also give the DM some real monsters instead of these halfbaked cardboard cutouts we test at the moment. 
Problem is not with player damage its with a monster ethos that almost havent changed since beta release.
Are we aiming for Pathfinder level of caster/martial (dis)balance now?
Are we aiming for Pathfinder level of caster/martial (dis)balance now?



You are the only one even remotely mentioning casters....where did you get that from? You mention (often) that deadly strike is pathetic or poor, can I get you to expand on that with why you think that is so?
Are we aiming for Pathfinder level of caster/martial (dis)balance now?



You are the only one even remotely mentioning casters....where did you get that from? You mention (often) that deadly strike is pathetic or poor, can I get you to expand on that with why you think that is so?




Deadly Strike doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is the core damage performance feature of the martial classes, and as such is supreme in defining their balance in relation to casters.

Should we want a balanced game (we do?) the effectiveness of the core damage perfomance feature of the martial classes (currently Deadly Strike) defines the upper bounderies of what casters can achieve without becoming unbalanced.

When Deadly Strike is pathetic, casters consequently have to be either 1) pathetic or 2) overpowered

Also, see this community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... 
Guess how everyone with 12+ mod will roll; plus multiple rolls slow down the game.
Becase have be the class balance because of all classes that can make the same of others? ifa amke a gigther i will like to be the ****img master taht when i take my wepon you start run to i don´t hit you. That was the flavour of warrior in Advanced. Start 3.X edition and people cry...i also like more damage and more things...and warrior is changed a pull o feats that im low level can use...but high levels? the monster maybe have +15..yes you can perhaps but with magic items and moreAfter was only the ability of warrior to slash. And the guy that is speaka bout wizatds..open a posy if  you have speak about wizards, but here speak about deadly strike from figther..is wizard, patetic, owerpower, balanced o another thing speak in a wizards   
The OP talked about Deadly Strike, Rage, and Inflict Wounds spell damage. It's a thread about damage, not a thread about Deadly Strike only.

Once again, Deadly Strike doesn't exist in an empty space.

Deadly Strike doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is the core damage performance feature of the martial classes, and as such is supreme in defining their balance in relation to casters.

Should we want a balanced game (we do?) the effectiveness of the core damage perfomance feature of the martial classes (currently Deadly Strike) defines the upper bounderies of what casters can achieve without becoming unbalanced.

When Deadly Strike is pathetic, casters consequently have to be either 1) pathetic or 2) overpowered

Also, see this community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... 



So let me get this straight, if wizards are occasionally able to do more damage with daily spells than a fighter's at-will attacks, that means the fighter's at-will attacks suck? Really? If one class, with limited resources, could never outperform a class with at-will resources, why would anyone ever play the class with the limited resources? The idea that a fighter's deadly strike damage on his at-will attacks should set the upper boundary of what spells can do is absolutely ridiculous, and far from balanced. Something that can only be done a few times per day should be better than something that can be done at-will.

Once again, Deadly Strike doesn't exist in an empty space.



You really seem to cling to this "empty space" thing.

Not really using it in the right context. 


Looking at the big picture is good, I agree with Zidarq on that one.
What I still havnt seen any evidence for is why deadly strike is pathetic. All the playtests ive seen and read suggest players still carve through monsters (albeit now not monsters 10 levels too high) and not "because wizards do too much damage".... so I am genuinly interested in where this opinion comes from.

Deadly Strike doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is the core damage performance feature of the martial classes, and as such is supreme in defining their balance in relation to casters.

Should we want a balanced game (we do?) the effectiveness of the core damage perfomance feature of the martial classes (currently Deadly Strike) defines the upper bounderies of what casters can achieve without becoming unbalanced.

When Deadly Strike is pathetic, casters consequently have to be either 1) pathetic or 2) overpowered

Also, see this community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... 



So let me get this straight, if wizards are occasionally able to do more damage with daily spells than a fighter's at-will attacks, that means the fighter's at-will attacks suck? Really? If one class, with limited resources, could never outperform a class with at-will resources, why would anyone ever play the class with the limited resources? The idea that a fighter's deadly strike damage on his at-will attacks should set the upper boundary of what spells can do is absolutely ridiculous, and far from balanced. Something that can only be done a few times per day should be better than something that can be done at-will.




You didn't get it straight at all. Consider the hypothesis of equal damage for everyone, as I did:

Let's consider fighter and wizard being 100% equal in damage.

-The fighter will have his tank (when enemy target or when able to force enemies into preferring him over their intended target)

-The fighter will have his Expertise stuff (apart from damage and tank that we listed above) to support the party and do this and that


-The wizard will have all the hard control, soft control, utility, etc. that his spells offer, in and out of combat. We're likely to see a great number of spells returning from previous editions a few splats into this edition.





So what happens when WotC nerfs martial damage and cantrips? Martial classes lose a lot, because damage is so much of what they contribute. Casters lose not nearly as much, because they keep all the cool tricks.


So each martial damage nerf is either pushing casters into overpoweredness (not good for the game) or limits the room casters have for versatility (the cool spells). Between Deadly Strike (from dice and hard numbers) and the removal of racial weapon dice increase, martial classes lost ~40% of their damage in the last playtest. That's really, really a lot. And ultimately, it will come to haunt the casting classes in a negative way too.


tl;dr:   strong martial classes = room for awesome caster classes; weak martial classes = boring casters or OP casters

Looking at the big picture is good, I agree with Zidarq on that one.
What I still havnt seen any evidence for is why deadly strike is pathetic. All the playtests ive seen and read suggest players still carve through monsters (albeit now not monsters 10 levels too high) and not "because wizards do too much damage".... so I am genuinly interested in where this opinion comes from.




Yes, monster hps are too low, but there are other ways to fix this, including, say, modifying monster hps. When I say DS is pathetic, I mean it is much weaker than what fighter types had earlier.

Martial classes (at least for now) are almost linearly dependent on the damage they do for party contribution. They lack significant battlefield control, taunt&tank, healing, utility (excluding the rogue), downtime utility, etc.

On the other hand, casters got their spell damage nerfed some too. But they do a lot more than spell damage. A caster can have great party contribution without ever bothering to do damage even now, barely a few dozen spells into the edition. Now try to imagine what will happen when all the hundred spells of established DnD tradition arrive in the Core and the first few splats. 

If WotC "solution" of monsters lacking hps is "nerf the martial classes", we are going to have a bad time in this edition. 
Ahhhhh now I see. Deadly strike is pathetic...compared to MDD! You could have said from the start. NOW we can disagree propperly. MDD was responsible for the 1round killing of level 15 dragons by a group of level 6 characters 80% of the time.Thank Pelor we got rid of that! 40% damage reduction was sorely needed. Now a level 6 group can only 1round kill level apropriate monsters. Monsters will be a fun challange rather than things to be tickled to death
Or we could have had monster hp doubled and left plenty of room for casters being awesome too. Now the clock is ticking on the spell synergies that will render fighters as useless as they were in 3.5


Of course, we are free to disagree. The idea of the test is to discuss stuff like this and hopefully get it right for the release.
I posted my reply as you posted your first reply to me
 And yes I really see your points a lot clearer now and even agree with most of them.

You didn't get it straight at all. Consider the hypothesis of equal damage for everyone, as I did:

Let's consider fighter and wizard being 100% equal in damage.

-The fighter will have his tank (when enemy target or when able to force enemies into preferring him over their intended target)

-The fighter will have his Expertise stuff (apart from damage and tank that we listed above) to support the party and do this and that


-The wizard will have all the hard control, soft control, utility, etc. that his spells offer, in and out of combat. We're likely to see a great number of spells returning from previous editions a few splats into this edition.




Wizards have limited resources, so yes, while they can have alot of "cool tricks", they have to choose between using those and dealing damage. Every villager he charms or lock he opens is one less combat spell he can use that day. And assuming that they make damaging spells and control effects balanced with each other (which is their stated goal), then it really doesn't make the wizard any more powerful than the fighter for having them. They're just a different way of doing things.

Now, if you're going to say "but fighters don't have any out-of-combat stuff!" then I totally agree. That's a big problem and I've been asking WotC to give them something for the exploration and interaction pillars for as long as the playtest has been going. But that is an entirely separate issue and has nothing to do with whether or not Deadly Strike sucks.


So what happens when WotC nerfs martial damage and cantrips? Martial classes lose a lot, because damage is so much of what they contribute. Casters lose not nearly as much, because they keep all the cool tricks.

So each martial damage nerf is either pushing casters into overpoweredness (not good for the game) or limits the room casters have for versatility (the cool spells). Between Deadly Strike (from dice and hard numbers) and the removal of racial weapon dice increase, martial classes lost ~40% of their damage in the last playtest. That's really, really a lot. And ultimately, it will come to haunt the casting classes in a negative way too.



Damage is relative. I could do 1000 damage a hit and it wouldn't matter if the monsters had 1 million HPs. What matters is how much damage the characters do relative to the HP of the monsters they're facing, and in this packet, they got martial character damage right. The damage nerfs from the last packet were badly needed. Fighter damage was absolutely ridiculous. They were running around 1-2 shotting monsters way above their own level.
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