Spiked shields and dual wielding for everyone!

So I've been messing around with the playtest packet and tried out some basic encounters with friends and for any character looking to use a shield (that has martial weapons training) there is no reason NOT to use a spiked shield and get the dual wiedling feat unless you stubbornly don't want the free damage.

It is light and gives the +2 AC for using a shield and does 1D6 damage. So you can have your cake and eat it too with the best possible 2-weapon damage and +2 AC (no feat required for 2-weapon defence!)


Now I actually like the idea of 2 weapon fighting with a shield. I think it's awesome. Cutting an enemy and then bashing them with my shield is fantastic. My problem is that there is no reason NOT to make a martial weapon, shield using character not do this, even if you save a feat and use a short sword instead of a longsword (or other weapon type.)

My suggestion:

Regular shield: +2 AC, light, 1D4 damage.

Spiked shield: +1 AC, light, 1D6 damage, or, +2 AC, 1D6 damage (not light, therefore requires a light mainhand).

Then us power gamers can argue the virtues of the different options and have some choice. If I'm missing something and/or not interpretting rules right let me know.

Other than that I like the newest version so far. No more required scaling in magic items and giant slow monsters with +15 initiative. Still unsure about the magic system. Rolling to hit vs. will/reflex was something our resident wizard player enjoyed. We could totally houserule it though so it's not a huge issue.
I do agree that the spiked shield needs to be fixed. You are right that there's no reason to take Two-Weapon Defense or to do anything else but grab a spiked shield (or two, for +4 AC).

At 1d6 damage, the spiked shield is already the best a light weapon can be (assuming finesse isn't needed). Adding +2 AC is overkill. Even +1 AC is already making it the superior option. Making it non-light just means a player would grab the spiked shield and a regular shield.

The problem with their approach to "Everyone can TWF without feats" is that it makes sword & board character into an automatic two-weapon fighter. If I go sword & board, I don't necessarily want to roll two attacks every round. Some players may want to. Both options need to be viable and balanced with one another.
Could make it so a shield bash causes you to lose your shield's AC bonus for that round, unless you take a feat. I also think we should have light and heavy shields, both spiked and blunt.
Spiked shiled is definatly broken in this packet.

That said.  Just use 2 of them. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I have done some cheesy things in my time but 2 spiked shields is even too ridiculous for my taste.


Just happy we have a concensus that there is no downside at all to using one.
If they put in a note that you can only benefit from one sheild's AC bonus at a time it would go a ways towards helping the issue.
If they put in a note that you can only benefit from one sheild's AC bonus at a time it would go a ways towards helping the issue.



It would completely solve the issue of dual shields. At that point you're just using a shield and a light weapon, which happens to be a shield because you felt like being the maniac running around with two shields bashing everything in sight, and there's nothing wrong with that if you're not getting double the AC bonus for it.

But TWF would still be problematic because of the lack of any penalty for it.
Outside the shield problem within this packet which have to be fixed, since considering price and utility there is not any reason for anyone trained in weapons not to use a spiked one instead of a regular. The dual shielding supremacy was a lot of laughing when reading the packet the first time.

I don't understand why there is a feat that gives a shield bonus to AC to dual-wielders while there isn't also a feat that gives regular shield bearers an offhand attack. It seems to me that it would be a natural feat balancing move.
In this particular packet case, these two feats would be solved by only one that would just be giving acces to spiked shield at a feat cost.

If they put in a note that you can only benefit from one sheild's AC bonus at a time it would go a ways towards helping the issue.


But that would require them to put in a rule about "named stacking bonuses." Even though it was a hallmark of 3E/4E, they seem dead set on simplifying the game and rehashing all the problems that have been fixed over the last ten years.
But that would require them to put in a rule about "named stacking bonuses."



Not necessarily, they could simply add "a character may only benefit from one shield at a time" to the Shield rules. Easy peasy.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

But that would require them to put in a rule about "named stacking bonuses."



Not necessarily, they could simply add "a character may only benefit from one shield at a time" to the Shield rules. Easy peasy.

How is it easier to add a no stacking rule to everything that might be stackable than to make a general rule about stacking? The single rule is what sounds easy peasy.

I never said it would be easier. Veggie was stating that Raven's proposition wouldn't work because it would require WotC to bring back a rule that they were "dead set" against. I came up with a one sentence alternative to counter Veggie's counter.

For the record, I agree that a general stacking rule would be better. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that it's necessary. But I was just demonstrating that if they are, in fact, adamant about not including that rule then there are workarounds. 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

I would just let them stack.  I mean, you get 4 feats.  Spending 2 of them on AC is alot of your resources.  

Your just really good at blocking.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

 At that point you're just using a shield and a light weapon, which happens to be a shield because you felt like being the maniac running around with two shields bashing everything in sight, and there's nothing wrong with that if you're not getting double the AC bonus for it.



My group's next adventuring party now has to be four fighters carying only spiked sheilds. Our line of spiky defense will slowly move down the hall, bringing unmatched terror to all who stand in our way. Grovel, hide, it makes no difference. In the end, all will be bashed. Make no attempt to fight back. Any attack at us will result an interposing sheild. Ranged attacks will be met with "block missle". There is no escape, only tears now, forever. Or untill they fix this.
I don't understand how a shield...any shield...could be considered "light".  And how does a shield spike do more damage that a dagger?  Is this a spike or a short sword welded to a shield?

Remove spiked shield from the game completely, imo, and only allow a shield to be used as an off-hand weapon if you take a feat.  Because of Bounded Accuracy, +2 AC is a big enough bonus all by itself. 
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
I don't understand how a shield...any shield...could be considered "light".  And how does a shield spike do more damage that a dagger?  Is this a spike or a short sword welded to a shield?

Remove spiked shield from the game completely, imo, and only allow a shield to be used as an off-hand weapon if you take a feat.  Because of Bounded Accuracy, +2 AC is a big enough bonus all by itself. 



That's a good *point*. 1d6 is a bit absurd for the spiked sheild. I wouldn't remove it though. I like the idea that if you attack with it you loose the ac bonus for that round. 
I'd leave it, running around with 2 shields should be an option.  It just needs the numbers reduced to be balanced.

Rule: You can carry 1 light, and 1 normal weapon.

Small Shield:  1d4 bludenong damage, +1 AC, light
Spiked Shield: 1d4 piercing damage, +1 AC, light
Edge Shield: 1d4 slashing damage, +1 AC, light

Shield: +2 AC, light  (with a normal d8 weapon)

Tower Shield: +3 AC  (with a light d6 weapon)

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Running around with two shields shouldn't be an option. It's utterly idiotic.
Wait...wait...what about head butting with a spiked helm?
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Running around with two shields shouldn't be an option. It's utterly idiotic.

So because you don't like it means other people should not be allowed to play that way?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Running around with two shields shouldn't be an option. It's utterly idiotic.

So because you don't like it means other people should not be allowed to play that way?



Can't speak for him, but if it's not obvious to you that it's both silly and overpowered then go ahead and use it in your game.

If it made any sense at all we would have Greek vases and Norman carvings that showed warriors wielding two shields in battle.  

("We don't have Greek vases showing wizards casting fireballs, either."  "No, but casting fireballs wasn't possible.  If it were, they would have done it.  Wielding two shields was possible, but they didn't do it.  Q.E.F.D.")


"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Running around with two shields shouldn't be an option. It's utterly idiotic.

So because you don't like it means other people should not be allowed to play that way?

Can't speak for him, but if it's not obvious to you that it's both silly and overpowered then go ahead and use it in your game.

I don't want it to be overpowered (clearly it is at the moment).  I want dual shields to be balanced.  Something like...

1d12.
1d6 + 1d4 + 1 AC.
1d8 + 2 AC.
1d4 + 1d4 + 2 AC.
1d6 + 3 AC.

Silly is in the eye of the beholder.  And yes, sometimes people did use dual shields.  Not often, but people don't use 2-weapons very often either.  But that doesn't matter since this is fantasy, we can allow for some fantastical things.

Heck, the yo-yo was origionally a weapon too.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

And yes, sometimes people did use dual shields.



Citation, please.

"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
The sheild should defintaly be ballanced not removed. My fantasy character should be able to do anything silly he wants. The silly things should be just as stupid as they seem, but I want the option. 

I think the spiked sheild should never get much better than a d4. Two daggers built purely for attacking should be more effective than two sheilds with pointy things welded to them.
 
Running around with two shields shouldn't be an option. It's utterly idiotic.

So because you don't like it means other people should not be allowed to play that way?



That's a slippery slope. Rule Zero says that everybody can play any way they please. If I want to play with a sawed-off shotgun and a satellite phone, I can - but that doesn't mean it should be included as an option in the main rulebook. 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

Running around with two shields shouldn't be an option. It's utterly idiotic.

So because you don't like it means other people should not be allowed to play that way?



That's a slippery slope. Rule Zero says that everybody can play any way they please. If I want to play with a sawed-off shotgun and a satellite phone, I can - but that doesn't mean it should be included as an option in the main rulebook. 



But is it a SPIKED satellite phone?  If so, you should dual wield them.

"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
My fantasy character should be able to do anything silly he wants. The silly things should be just as stupid as they seem, but I want the option.



And you can. It doesn't mean that every idiotic option should be viable, though. I think it'd be fun to play a Fighter who dual-wields two salmon, but that doesn't mean I think dual-wielding a pair of dead fish should be a viable build (Hell, I once played a Don Quixote like character and purposefully played him with mediocre stats and substandard equipment to represent his total incompetence. It wasn't viable, but I did it). Likewise dual-wielding two shields shouldn't in any way be viable. We've got thousands of years of history in which people use shields. Nowhere will you find anyone dual-wielding them. There's a reason for that. Yeah, it's fantasy, but the stuff rooted in the real world should at least reflect the real world in some way. And just as I don't expect a D&D rulebook to introduce standard humans capable of shooting laser beams out of their eyes or a standard longbow which can fire an arrow into an enemy with so much force that it carries him across the countryside, I likewise don't expect to see viable builds for combat techniques using real world equipment which were never used in that way in the real world. And nobody in the real world ever dual-wielded shields and shield bashed their way through life.
 
Again, if you want to do that, that's your perogative. But it shouldn't be a viable option, because that'll only encourage others to replicate that idiocy across other game tables.
Wait...wait...what about head butting with a spiked helm?



That should inflict 2d6 damage, obviously.

Can't speak for him, but if it's not obvious to you that it's both silly and overpowered then go ahead and use it in your game.

If it made any sense at all we would have Greek vases and Norman carvings that showed warriors wielding two shields in battle.  

("We don't have Greek vases showing wizards casting fireballs, either."  "No, but casting fireballs wasn't possible.  If it were, they would have done it.  Wielding two shields was possible, but they didn't do it.  Q.E.F.D.")



You spoke for me just fine, thank you. Smile


And for the record, I love shieldbashing. I had a 2E Paladin with whom I went out of my way so I could have him two-weapon fighting with his sword and a shield bash, but 1d6 damage is too much. It should be 1d4. And dual-wielding spiked shields is silly.  

So why make a character that uses 2 short swords when you can use a spiked shield and a shortsword for exactly the same offensive ability and an additional +2 AC?

Spiked shields at the very least need both an exotic weapon feat requirement and a nerf to 1d4 damage.

My fantasy character should be able to do anything silly he wants. The silly things should be just as stupid as they seem, but I want the option.



And you can. It doesn't mean that every idiotic option should be viable, though. I think it'd be fun to play a Fighter who dual-wields two salmon, but that doesn't mean I think dual-wielding a pair of dead fish should be a viable build (Hell, I once played a Don Quixote like character and purposefully played him with mediocre stats and substandard equipment to represent his total incompetence. It wasn't viable, but I did it). Likewise dual-wielding two shields shouldn't in any way be viable. We've got thousands of years of history in which people use shields. Nowhere will you find anyone dual-wielding them. There's a reason for that. Yeah, it's fantasy, but the stuff rooted in the real world should at least reflect the real world in some way. And just as I don't expect a D&D rulebook to introduce standard humans capable of shooting laser beams out of their eyes or a standard longbow which can fire an arrow into an enemy with so much force that it carries him across the countryside, I likewise don't expect to see viable builds for combat techniques using real world equipment which were never used in that way in the real world. And nobody in the real world ever dual-wielded shields and shield bashed their way through life.
 
Again, if you want to do that, that's your perogative. But it shouldn't be a viable option, because that'll only encourage others to replicate that idiocy across other game tables.



We are actually agreeing here Green. Im saying that I want my double sheilds and your double salmon to be viable, as sub par options. I want there to be rules for duel weilding the sheilds in case a situation ever arises where I have two spiked sheilds and need to fight. Similarly, I think you should be able to duel weild improvised weapons (catfish). Not because you should logically take them, but because fighter may be unarmed in a sheild/seafood shop, and need to heroicly don the famed sword fish and spiked sheild combob. My wizzard may need to bluff to the king that he has enchanted the coy on his plate to be as deadly as a knife, and when that bluff fails I have to follow through. I agree that a fighter with two sheilds should never be better or equal to one with actual weapons. But do you see what I'm saying? I think allowing these to be options, in any form, allows for an extra bit of creativity.
Oh, ok. Allowing them in any form is naturally assumed, though. After all, for a character not to be able to wield two shields there'd have to be some reason why they can't do so, which obviously there isn't (The only way I could see that happening is for there to be some sort of rule in which it's stated that it's physically impossible for a single character to wear two or more shields, which it isn't. Come to think of it, you could wear four. One on each arm, one strapped to your chest, and one strapped to your back. Does that give you +8 AC, then?). Ruleswise, though, you should only get the AC benefit from a single shield (Which wouldn't be a difficult change. Just insert a single sentence into the descriptions of shields stating that a character may only benefit from a single shield), and the damage from the spiked shield really should be lessened to 1d4.
I think you should be able to get a bonus from both, but not from one you attack with. Along with limiting damage to a d4 would ballance it nicely I think. 
"or a single character to wear two or more shields, which it isn't. Come to think of it, you could wear four. One on each arm, one strapped to your chest, and one strapped to your back. Does that give you +8 AC, then?)."

I hope is a joke .. seriously, I guess nobody would be able to do that, I do not think any master apate leave him, then delete Wizard armor and shields are now sewn clothes .. or rename to One Piece Next.
i think they are good as they are:

-Not stacking the AC from two shields is common sense ,in 3.5  the best two handed weapon was a shield (with shield bash)  ,but i never saw anyone doing that cos it is common sense . But well if u think that the rules are a binding law intead of a guide for conflict resolving ,its need to be typed.

-Its permit 2 types of shield figthers ,the dex type ,and the strength type:
The first is one extra attack ,the second is more control manuovers type .

-Also ¿why anyone would use a short swordor hand axe instead of a shield in a dex build?

I dont know..   ¿to change quick between melee/ranged while doing two attacks or mixing both things in the same turn? ¿to being stealthy and being able to ready two weapons quickly? ¿to be in a party or social event armed without being suspicius? ¿using a double weapon and mixing between two handed and dualwield traits?

I think its cool as it is:
-dualweapon: twohanded / double weapon mix.
-spiked shield plus light weapon ,total dex melee figther. 
-dual light weapons: , mixed thrower/melee or stealthy character.
-Or you can be strength dual wield with a finesse(light) weapon and a longsword.
I keep thinking about this, and I think shields should do 1 point of damage, spiked shields 1-2 points.

Remember that a dagger, which is designed as a weapon not armor, only does 1d4.
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
I'm curious as to why you would ever walk about with two spiked shields other than min maxing your cartoon. I can't think of any fictional heroes that  walked about killing dragons and the like with shields because they did more damage per second. 
I'm curious as to why you would ever walk about with two spiked shields other than min maxing your cartoon. I can't think of any fictional heroes that  walked about killing dragons and the like with shields because they did more damage per second. 



I happen to agree, but I still gotta ask: how many fictional heroes do you know that walk around with two broken pool cues?



"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
For those who think dual spiked shield is silly I have one word...
Shredder!

As a DM I would not allow shield AC bonus to stack. +2 is plenty and would consider no AC bonus if two attacks made. Two weapon Defense would still give same benefit though. 

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskrima 

I said pool cues so everyone could easily picture what I was talking about.

as far as shredder goes shredder had cestus and not spiked shields. 

The only place I have ever seen duel wielded shields would be dark souls by players so good at the game they purposly pick items that make it harder for them to play.