Combustion Force Power + Stifle Conflict Talent

The Combustion Force Power out of the Legacy Era book causes fire damage to targets within its area and sets them on fire.

The Stifle Conflict talent out of the Jedi Academy Training Manual allows you to choose to have any Force power do stun damage instead of normal damage.

If you opt to have the Combustion power do stun fire damage...  does the damage from them being set on fire that continues afterward do normal damage or stun damage?

It's not quite normal fire, because the result of the Use the Force check determines the fire's normal attack bonus.  But it doesn't stipulate that this is ongoing damage from the power itself, and theoretically would continue to burn as normal so long as no one puts it out.

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I don't believe in "fire stun damage." If anyone actually catches on fire, it should be normal fire.

Anyway, this is a weird combo. If I had Stifle Conflict, I would choose a force power that dealt really high damage, like Move Object or Force Grip/Slam. There's no danger in killing anyone since it's all stun damage. Actually Many Shades + Force Lightning + Stifle Conflict would be an amazing CT killer combo. 8d6 stun damage and move -1 CT, or -2 CT with a FP.

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I don't believe in "fire stun damage." If anyone actually catches on fire, it should be normal fire.


Anyway, this is a weird combo. If I had Stifle Conflict, I would choose a force power that dealt really high damage, like Move Object or Force Grip/Slam. There's no danger in killing anyone since it's all stun damage.



I hear that, combustion definitely isn't a big hitter all at once, I'm just curious on this, that's all.  The wording isn't clear.  I was leaning the later burn wouldn't be stun, myself, but it threw me a little with the power actually affecting the burn.


Actually Many Shades + Force Lightning + Stifle Conflict would be an amazing CT killer combo. 8d6 stun damage and move -1 CT, or -2 CT with a FP.


I'm actually working on a version of this right now for a friend who was looking for some help.  They're a lightsider, and I was thinking Many Shades + Force Lightning + Stifle Conflict + Pure Power could make an intriguing Electric Judgement analog, and exactly with very good CT movement abilities.  Throw in Improved Force Lightning, and potentially Unleashed for some real fun bouncing people around and able to hit targets in a cone (I've set the Unleashed feat to have a minimum heroic level 15 though, and will require the group to discover it first).

I am Blue/Black

The Combustion Force Power out of the Legacy Era book causes fire damage to targets within its area and sets them on fire.

The Stifle Conflict talent out of the Jedi Academy Training Manual allows you to choose to have any Force power do stun damage instead of normal damage.

So when used with Stifle Conflict, the Combustion Force Power will deal only stun damage. The part of the power talking about that the target catches on fire is an affect of the fire damage. So as the power no longer deals any fire damage, there will be no targets catching on fire... This will make the power a lot weaker.

You could as an house rule, to compensate for the loss of effectiveness of the power, let the effect of using a FP affect all targets. That is, at the cost of using a FP with this power you could move all targets down one step on the CT. That may be a bit too strong though. A better option may be that any target moved down the CT is moved one extra step down if you spend a FP. I'm sure that this could be worded better...

As for describing how the application of the Force Power looks like, I would describe it as blue sparks forming into a blue orb and detonating outwards.

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I'm actually working on a version of this right now for a friend who was looking for some help.  They're a lightsider, and I was thinking Many Shades + Force Lightning + Stifle Conflict + Pure Power could make an intriguing Electric Judgement analog, and exactly with very good CT movement abilities.  Throw in Improved Force Lightning, and potentially Unleashed for some real fun bouncing people around and able to hit targets in a cone (I've set the Unleashed feat to have a minimum heroic level 15 though, and will require the group to discover it first).


If you want to go really nuts: Many Shades + Force Lightning + Stifle Conflict + Devastating Power + Debilitating Power with DP. 12d6 damage will hopefully exceed the target's DT, in which case you can spend a DP with Debilitating power and move the target -6 CT total. 

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I'm actually working on a version of this right now for a friend who was looking for some help.  They're a lightsider, and I was thinking Many Shades + Force Lightning + Stifle Conflict + Pure Power could make an intriguing Electric Judgement analog, and exactly with very good CT movement abilities.  Throw in Improved Force Lightning, and potentially Unleashed for some real fun bouncing people around and able to hit targets in a cone (I've set the Unleashed feat to have a minimum heroic level 15 though, and will require the group to discover it first).


If you want to go really nuts: Many Shades + Force Lightning + Stifle Conflict + Devastating Power + Debilitating Power with DP. 12d6 damage will hopefully exceed the target's DT, in which case you can spend a DP with Debilitating power and move the target -6 CT total. 



Or, the multiattacking build I posted in the YbtOP #2 thread can move you -6 CT in one round without spending any DPs or FPs
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So when used with Stifle Conflict, the Combustion Force Power will deal only stun damage. The part of the power talking about that the target catches on fire is an affect of the fire damage. So as the power no longer deals any fire damage, there will be no targets catching on fire... This will make the power a lot weaker.


I'm not quite so sure on the not catching fire point.  The Combustion does half damage on a miss(unless I'm missing errata) and that fire damage does not set them on fire, while a hit does cause them to catch fire.   I think the catching fire is part of the force power itself, and the damage is seperate in this specific case.

Granted, I know a lot less than some of the people here, but the not catching fire on a miss which still does fire damage makes me think that catching fire from this power is divorced from taking fire damage from it.  While I also admit, it'd be strange for a force power doing stun damage to set the target on fire, it was originally a fire force power.
So when used with Stifle Conflict, the Combustion Force Power will deal only stun damage. The part of the power talking about that the target catches on fire is an affect of the fire damage. So as the power no longer deals any fire damage, there will be no targets catching on fire... This will make the power a lot weaker.


I'm not quite so sure on the not catching fire point.  The Combustion does half damage on a miss(unless I'm missing errata) and that fire damage does not set them on fire, while a hit does cause them to catch fire.   I think the catching fire is part of the force power itself, and the damage is seperate in this specific case.

Well, doing half damage on a miss is part of all area attacks in SAGA, and the only attacks that set you on fire are fire attacks. See  page 155 and 255 of SECR for references. Attacks and Powers that have special effects on top of damage, does not give that effect on a miss. It is typical for SAGA that a special effect have the rules for that effect repeated so that you don't have to go look for those rules in another book. From all of this I draw the conclusion that most of this power is just repeated material from other sources, put together in a new way. That means if you could somehow make this power target only one single target, it would no longer deal half damage on a miss, as it wouldn't be an area effect anymore. When you use a talent to take away the fire damage, it should no longer set people on fire.

If you can show me any (unmodified) weapon or power that can set you on fire, without dealing fire damage, I will yield this point.  

Granted, I know a lot less than some of the people here, but the not catching fire on a miss which still does fire damage makes me think that catching fire from this power is divorced from taking fire damage from it.  While I also admit, it'd be strange for a force power doing stun damage to set the target on fire, it was originally a fire force power.

Knowledge of SAGA or anything else are not measured by the number of previous posts. I think that as the the Combustion Force Power did not come in the same splatbook as the Stifle Conflict talent, no one anticipated that the power could be changed to deal a different type of damage. Thus, there was no need to specify that the targets taking fire damage was necessary condition for them catching on fire.

While these arguments are obvious to me, I do understand that they may not be so obvious to others... 



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I'm not quite so sure on the not catching fire point.  The Combustion does half damage on a miss(unless I'm missing errata) and that fire damage does not set them on fire, while a hit does cause them to catch fire.   I think the catching fire is part of the force power itself, and the damage is seperate in this specific case.


He means that when you apply Stifle Conflict to the Combustion power, then it no longer deals fire damage, but stun damage. Therefore no one will be catching fire on a hit or a miss. It's a valid argument and another reason why this combo doesn't make sense.

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I am aware, but the Combustion power behaves oddly since it can do fire damage and not set it's target on fire.  When you have a miss for say 2d6 fire damage, the rules would say "A creature of character that takes fire damage also catches on fire", but the power specifically states that the target does not catch fire.  This leads me to believe that the power setting the target on fire and the damage are two different things.

Let me propose this hypothetical question.  Let's say I have DR 5 against fire damage from some unkown source.  If I get hit with a Combustion that hits, and does only 4 damage(all ones), but then is reduced to zero damage.  Since I took zero damage, do I still catch on fire since it hit and the power says I take 4d6 damage AND am set on fire? (Granted, it's only have a 16% chance to inflict one damage each round if the DR stuck around.)

PS: I'll admit, my arguement is kind of strange, but the wording strikes me as funny in how it handles it.
Let me propose this hypothetical question.  Let's say I have DR 5 against fire damage from some unkown source.  If I get hit with a Combustion that hits, and does only 4 damage(all ones), but then is reduced to zero damage.  Since I took zero damage, do I still catch on fire since it hit and the power says I take 4d6 damage AND am set on fire? (Granted, it's only have a 16% chance to inflict one damage each round if the DR stuck around.)


Core Rules page 255: “A creature or character that takes fire damage also catches on fire.” Since you didn’t take any fire damage, you do not catch on fire.

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I am aware, but the Combustion power behaves oddly since it can do fire damage and not set it's target on fire.  When you have a miss for say 2d6 fire damage, the rules would say "A creature of character that takes fire damage also catches on fire", but the power specifically states that the target does not catch fire.  This leads me to believe that the power setting the target on fire and the damage are two different things.

All special effects like moving down the CT or being knocked back, knocked over and so on, they only work on a hit. On a miss there is only damage or nothing at all. That is the way of attacks and force power in SAGA. Same thing goes for being set on fire. This is a balans issue for area attacks.

Let me propose this hypothetical question.  Let's say I have DR 5 against fire damage from some unkown source.  If I get hit with a Combustion that hits, and does only 4 damage(all ones), but then is reduced to zero damage.  Since I took zero damage, do I still catch on fire since it hit and the power says I take 4d6 damage AND am set on fire? (Granted, it's only have a 16% chance to inflict one damage each round if the DR stuck around.)

This power should be compatible with the other rules of the game, that they didn't explain what happen when you use a talent to modify the effect or if you somehow don't deal any damage is to be expected. The power is described as it will work in a typiacal situation.

As for your extreme example, the answer should be NO. Being set on fire is an effect of taking fire damage, taking no damage you should no be set on fire. The proof is that there is no effect in the game that set you on fire without you taking fire damage. The part about you not being set on fire on a miss, that is the typical effect of a Area attack missing its target.

EDIT: I crossed out "attacks" in the first paragraph.

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On a miss there is only damage or nothing at all. That is the way of attacks and force power in SAGA. Same thing goes for being set on fire. This is a balans issue for area attacks.


Wait, if you miss with a flamethrower and deal half damage, don't the targets still take fire damage and catch on fire?

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On a miss there is only damage or nothing at all. That is the way of attacks and force power in SAGA. Same thing goes for being set on fire. This is a balans issue for area attacks.


Wait, if you miss with a flamethrower and deal half damage, don't the targets still take fire damage and catch on fire?

Looks like you are right! I changed my earlier response to reflect this. However, this does not change my argument one bit. Force powers still deal half damage on a miss and no special effects, some powers deal no damage on a miss typically the ones affecting single targets (or 2 in the special case of Move Object).

But if we only read the description of the force power; not accounting for how force powers, fire damage and area attacks work in general, then you would ALWAYS be set on fire on a hit. But as this leads to absurd results, I would always look for a different interpretation.

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