## Staggering flail + Eldritch Strike + Flail Expertise = ?

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CUBPHILDND
Joined Apr 2011
660 Posts
I asked this on the FAQ thread, but it got buried under a silly argument.

Suppose I am using a +3
Staggering flail to Eldritch Strike, and I have the Flail Expertise feat.  I hit (but not critically) and knock my target prone using Flail Expertise.  What is the maximum number of squares I may slide the target, using just the three linked things (one feat, one item, one power), but not Staggering flail's daily power: 0 or 3?

Suppose further that I have the Lashing Flail feat.  Same question, but with the four linked things instead of three: 0, 1, 3, or 4?

Thanks.
kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5250 Posts
You didn't slide the target, you knocked it prone instead.  Therefore you can't add to the distance you slid it: you didn't slide it.

Add in Lashing Flail, and you're in the land of "ETV".  Flail Expertise requires that you hit with an attack that lets you slide the target.  Staggering's property only applies to weapon powers that slide.  Lashing Flail gives no indication if the MBA now slides, or you have a feat that also slides.  So: n/a, 1 or 4. I can't come out with 3 being a valid answer.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Mand12
Joined Jun 2010
17444 Posts
This is why true flail shenanigans requires Dragging Flail and/or Lashing Flail, to get the slide back.

Oh, and the feat doesn't slide, the power does.  Lashing Flail works, and all associated slides that happen are boosted by Staggering Weapon and other slide-enhancers.

People who don't have Eldritch Strike need both Dragging Flail and Lashing Flail, so that you have two instances of slide:  one to be converted to the prone (Lashing Flail + Flail Expertise), and then another for the actual slide (Flail Expertise + Dragging Flail).
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CUBPHILDND
Joined Apr 2011
660 Posts
Excellent, thanks.
kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5250 Posts
Oh, and the feat doesn't slide, the power does.

Citation needed.

The best I've got is via keyword inheritance rules.  We know that in the case of extra damage, that damage is done by the power in that the power gains the relevant keywords.  From that, we can deduce that, perhaps, other things are subsumed by the power too...

But if there's an actual rule that states that, I can't find it.  Thus: Expect Table Variation.

(FWIW, "4" is my personal answer for the OPs 2nd question.  You turn one slide1 into a prone, and the other slide1 into slide4.  I'm just not gonna pretend that it's a settled issue, and won't argue a DM that claims otherwise)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

CUBPHILDND
Joined Apr 2011
660 Posts
Customer Service says "0" to the first question (which is what I expected) and "1" for the second question.  Here is their response, verbatim:

Response Support Agent via Email 04/03/2013 11:34 AM
Hi **********,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support!

For your first case (Eldritch Strike with a +3 Staggering Flail and Flail Expertise), you're sliding the target 0 squares and knocking it prone. A Staggering weapon's first property only applies if you slide the target; because you are choosing to knock the target prone with Flail Expertise instead of sliding it with Eldritch Strike, the property has no effect.

Your second case (adding Lashing Flail to the equation) is more interesting: Eldritch Strike and Lashing Flail each generate a separate Slide 1; they don't stack, but they don't overlap either. However, the slide granted by Lashing Flail is generated by the feat, while Flail Expertise and Staggering weapons both require the attack to generate a slide in order to trigger. So, the end result is that you slide the target 1 (Lashing Flail), and slide the target 0 and knock it prone (Eldritch Strike, Staggering Weapon, Flail Expertise), and you can apply these two effects in any order you choose.

If you have any other questions, please give us a call or email. We're here to help!

Joined Aug 2007
6631 Posts

Eh... Nobody puts any real stock in Customer Service - they're a third-party company hired to do customer service. They don't have any special rules training and may not even actually play the game themselves... Though they're often right, they're just as often either wrong or at least mistaken about why they're right.

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Alcestis
Joined Oct 2009
8509 Posts
Customer Service says "0" to the first question (which is what I expected) and "1" for the second question.  Here is their response, verbatim:

Well, now we know one wrong answer.