Druid Cantrip: Fire Seeds (Can I create more than 2 and throw more than 2?)

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At 2 points of damage apiece, assuming the target fails their Dexterity saving throw, this cantrip is horrible.

If, however, I can conjure more than 2 fire seeds into existence over multiple rounds, and throw more than 2 fire seeds at the same time, then this spell becomes markedly worthwhile.

Reading the effect carefully, the cantrip 'creates' 2 fire seeds per action. To my way of thinking that means fire seeds last indefinitely (until they strike a chosen target). It therefore stands to reason that I can save them up and strike a chosen target with more than 2 at the same time. The cantrip effect certainly doesn't contradict this conclusion. It merely limits the number of creatures I can target to 2.

Agree or disagree?
You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

Nothing in the rules says I cannot create 320 seeds during 16 minutes of intensive cantripping and later throw them all at two goblins for 320 damage each (unless they make the save, then I wasted 16 minutes of my character's life).

It therefore stands to reason that my 1st level Druid can one-shot Asmodeus. And here I thought this spell was terrible.
You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

Nothing in the rules says I cannot create 320 seeds during 16 minutes of intensive cantripping and later throw them all at two goblins for 320 damage each (unless they make the save, then I wasted 16 minutes of my character's life).

It therefore stands to reason that my 1st level Druid can one-shot Asmodeus. And here I thought this spell was terrible.

That's not broken at all. If any hero should be able to put Asmodeus in his place at 1st level, it should be the druid, protector of the natural world.

Now if it wasn't for his damnable immunity to fire, this scenerio might actually work.

It doesn't split the actions of making the seeds and throwing them.


Casting Time: 1 action.


Effect: You create two burning seeds. Choose up to two creatures within 50 feet of you. Each target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw. Otherwise, a target takes 2 fire damage from each seed that targets it.

That's all listed as the effect of using an action to cast the spell; you can't spend 16 minutes making 160 rays of frost and then suddenly choose to target a single enemy with them.


It doesn't split the actions of making the seeds and throwing them.

Casting Time: 1 action.


Effect: You create two burning seeds. Choose up to two creatures within 50 feet of you. Each target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw. Otherwise, a target takes 2 fire damage from each seed that targets it.

That's all listed as the effect of using an action to cast the spell; you can't spend 16 minutes making 160 rays of frost and then suddenly choose to target a single enemy with them.
But unlike Ray of Frost (an Evocation cantrip), Fire Seeds (a Conjuration cantrip) creates the fire seeds. The spell effect is explicit about that.

Effect: You create two burning seeds. Choose up to two creatures within 50 feet of you. Each target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw. Otherwise, a target takes 2 fire damage from each seed that targets
it.


I'm sure that's not what the developers intended, but according to RAW nothing stops this from working.
It's pretty clear that spell is resolved in the action it is cast. Part of the standard action specifies that you choose up to two creatures within 50 feet and each target must succeed on a dexterity save or else it takes 2 fire damage from each seed that targets it.

I don't understand the interpretation that holds a person could use their standard action to create the seeds and then defer a portion of that same standard action to a later part of the day to choose the two creatures. If the DM is unable to evoke common sense, I think the economy of actions should be enough to rule against this.
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It's pretty clear that spell is resolved in the action it is cast. Part of the standard action specifies that you choose up to two creatures within 50 feet and each target must succeed on a dexterity save or else it takes 2 fire damage from each seed that targets it.

I don't understand the interpretation that holds a person could use their standard action to create the seeds and then defer a portion of that same standard action to a later part of the day to choose the two creatures. If the DM is unable to evoke common sense, I think the economy of actions should be enough to rule against this.

If I can create 'and' target Fire Seeds as a part of the same action, then common sense dictates that I can also create Fire Seeds in the same amount of time. It's less effort after all.

Regarding their existence as a 'creation' (Spell quote: "You create two burning seeds"), because no duration is mentioned they must therefore exist indefinitely (until targeted). If this were an Evocation cantrip, the effect would be discharged right away (undeniably), but's it not. It's a Conjuration cantrip, reinforcing the notion that Fire Seeds are not a spontaneously resolved effect.

Having said that, I agree with Lord_Kyrion. The above interpretation was most likely not intended by the creators, but if all Fire Seeds deal per casting is 4 points of damage (maximum) at 1st through 4th level, assuming the target (or targets) fail their Dexterity saving throw, then this cantrip is a pathetic little duckling that needs to grow up a lot more before joining the ranks of 'feasible' spell effects.

The current cantrip description could be salvaged by including a duration for how long Fire Seeds last, or by stipulating the maximum number of Fire Seeds which can exist at any given time.
By the flavor text, the seeds ignite and seek targets after to throw them.

Seeing that the created side have neither a duration nor an action for use seperate for use, the seeds ignite at the end of the spell's casting or shortly after if but before the next action.

So if the druid casts fire seed and targets no one either the seed do nothing or the druid becomes the target of both seeds, DM's call.

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Reading the spell and its description made me think of the firey pinecones that Gandalf made at the end of the Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey.  This leads me to think that you can make as many as you want and pass them around or set them aside, but they are still flaming seeds of fire.  I wouldn't put those in my backpack.  In that regard, I imagine the spell almost like a Swift spell (although making it thus would open up alot more issues).  You can create the seeds and then as a part of the action, throw them.  If you want to set these flaming tennis balls to the side, or hand them to someone else, I don't see any problem with it.

To summarize:  You can create the seeds and do what you want with them, including throwing them as the same action, but they are still flaming pinecones that you have to contend with. 
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Magic Missle and Scorching Ray use the exact same wording.  You create a thing and then choose targets for that thing.

I've yet to see anyone think that you should be able to carry excess 'darts of magical force' or 'rays of fire and light'.  Or hand them off to other people for that matter.
Magic Missle and Scorching Ray use the exact same wording.  You create a thing and then choose targets for that thing.

I've yet to see anyone think that you should be able to carry excess 'darts of magical force' or 'rays of fire and light'.  Or hand them off to other people for that matter.



Because darts of force and rays of light are not objects that could conceivably be stored. I think Fire Seeds could be made to work much like Goodberry, then it might actually be useful.
Ugh, this is one of the things I hate about this board, people pouncing upon poorly worded spells and trying to do absolutely stupd things, instead of suggesting ways to make the spell worded correctly.



There are poor ways of interptriting the spell but seriously ... let's take a look at the spell.

Flavor text: nice, but has no influnce on the spells acual ability, ignored.

Casting time: 1 action(standard for spells)

Effect:  Create 2 fire seeds.  choose targets, they makes saves or take damage.

So the controversy is over saving them to attack later in bulk... which the power doesn't allow.

There are 4 steps to the spell...
1. create the "fire seeds"
2. target creatures
3. they make saves
4. assign damage for failed saves

#1 is mostly fluff but the big issue,  but #2 is where the argument falls apart, in assuming you can "save" the seeds, you're not choosing a targets.   So you choose "no targets" and move on to the next steps nothing happens in steps #3 and #4.  end of spell. 

Oddly, the spell also doesn't specifially say you can target both seeds at one target, it implies it... but if your definition of saving the seeds is true, it wouldn't matter because you can't target more than one seed at anyone... so there would be no point to it.
Preferences... Not where they should be. Asking someone if they're Trolling you is in violation of section 3 of the Code of Conduct.
Ugh, this is one of the things I hate about this board, people pouncing upon poorly worded spells and trying to do absolutely stupd things, instead of suggesting ways to make the spell worded correctly.


Shhh, these boards are for blaming and complaining. Nothing constructive allowed here (my post included).
I don't want the spell reworded. It's worthless, it is by a wide margin the weakest attack available to players. It needs to be rewritten, not reworded.
It's the only attack cantrip that can have multiple targets and it does damage comparable to other attack cantrips.

What more do you think it needs?
Nothing in the rules says I cannot create 320 seeds during 16 minutes of intensive cantripping and later throw them all at two goblins for 320 damage each


Yes the rules do address that. The created seeds exist only for an instant since they don't have duration (Spells PDF pg. 24)

Duration: If no period of time is specified for spell’s duration, the spell’s 
effect is instantaneous. The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters something 
or someone in way that cannot be dispelled, because its magic exists only 
for an instant.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

It's the only attack cantrip that can have multiple targets and it does damage comparable to other attack cantrips. What more do you think it needs?



I redid the math on it and you're right, it is comparable damage. I hereby concede all complaints about Fire Seeds.
It's the only attack cantrip that can have multiple targets and it does damage comparable to other attack cantrips. What more do you think it needs?



I'd like fire seeds alot more if it did d4 damage per seed instead of 2. Spells that always do the exact same damage are boring, IMO.
I have a quite different complaint about fire seeds.  Obviously the wording has big flaws, but my problem is more basic.  With this venerable classic spell even higher profile thanks to the recent hobbit movie, why on Earth( or whereever) is a Druid conjuring magical seeds instead of enchanting natural ones?!?!?
If you made the druid collect the seeds-perhaps fresh-picked it might help to rein the spell in (not enough by itself obviously).  My complaint is just that the flavor is all wrong for a druid spell.
You create and throw the seeds in the same action. The seeds do not have a duration, they are instant cast. So... this saving up 100 seeds idea wouldnt (and shouldnt!) work.

If you tried to hold onto the seeds while they were burning, you'd take the damage.  The spell doesn't grant you protection from fire or make the seeds everburning; the seeds ignite in the air and burn out on contact with a target.  

Mechanically, the creation and release are all part of the ability.  If you could take only the parts you wanted of the action, then rogues would be able to take the part of their Distract reaction where they negate the damage and forego the part where they take no action on their next turn. 

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The lack of a damage roll may be an issue when coupled with some features, items or feats. I think they should remake it as a standard d6.
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Unless this thread is completely tongue-in-cheek, it's dumb.

If you are the DM and you want to run your campaign with unlimited Fire Seeds, go for it.

However, if a player is trying to rules lawyer you on this, just mention that Fire Seeds only last for 6 seconds before extinguishing. 

/thread 
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