Darling outlaw feat

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Dose sudden strike increase with darling outlaw ? If sudden strike can qualify you for the feat then should it not get the benefits of it too?  
Send me photos of this Darling Outlaw, and I'll let you know.
 
I would say, yes, it can qualify you for the feat, and yes, you would then get the benefits. However, the benefits would not really be actual benefits for you, likely as not. Even if your Swashbuckler and Rogue levels now stack to determine Sudden Strike as well, well, so you have the Sudden Strike of a level whatever Rogue. That's still +0, because Rogues don't get Sudden Strike.
Dose sudden strike increase with darling outlaw ? If sudden strike can qualify you for the feat then should it not get the benefits of it too?  



That seems logical. Strangely enough, after an admittedly brief browsing of the books, I can only find the rule that sudden strike counts as sneak attack for qualifying for feats, prestige classes, etc, but no mention that it also increases with them... but it would be strange. Not only for Daring Outlaw, but for any ambush feat. That's just my opinion, though, not an official ruling.

Edit: Appropriately for a thread about sudden strike, I got ninja'ed.

But I would agree with The_Fred that the feat unfortunately says "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels stack", not "Whatever class granted you sneak attack/sudden strike".
That is the part that drives me nuts how can you qualify for something if it is not it it makes no sense at all if sudden strike can be used in place of sneak attack for a feat a class or what ever would it not seem logical that no matter how you qualify for it then that is the one that goes up 

it goes along the same lines of the devoted tracker build where your pally and ranger levels stack fot you mount and animal companion but a Druid can qualify for the feat by simply taking track as a feat 
Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage.

Does that answer your question?

But, seriously, it doesn't matter. If you take Daring Outlaw without rogue levels, you get sneak attack equal to 0(rogue level)+Swashbuckler level. It isn't complicated.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
That is not the point the point is that on page 8 of complete adventurer 

sudden strike and sneak attack
fir the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and similar options that require a minimum number off sneak attack extra damage dice treat the ninjas sudden strike ability as the equivalent of sneak attack

now with that statement to me that says that darling outlaw will stack together if you go swashbuckler ninja even tho it says sswashbuckler and rogue levels stack ? 

 
Except it doesn't. It says rogue. There are feats in the same book that say ninja. Since they're in the same book, it would seem to imply that the lack of inclusion of ninja was intentional, no?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
The ones that say ninja only effect the ki pool not the sudden strike and I think that is because it says it in CV that they are the same 
That is not the point the point is that on page 8 of complete adventurer 

sudden strike and sneak attack
fir the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and similar options that require a minimum number off sneak attack extra damage dice treat the ninjas sudden strike ability as the equivalent of sneak attack

Yeah, so? It's says qualification, not benefit.
now with that statement to me that says that darling outlaw will stack together if you go swashbuckler ninja even tho it says sswashbuckler and rogue levels stack ?  

Nope. It stacks with Rogue levels. That's it. Now does that actually require rogue levels for you to benefit?  No. But trying to claim that Sudden Strike=Sneak Attack is absurd.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
it goes along the same lines of the devoted tracker build where your pally and ranger levels stack fot you mount and animal companion but a Druid can qualify for the feat by simply taking track as a feat 



That's because such a character would stop being a druid or a paladin because of the alignment restrictions. If he stays a paladin, he will have to remain LG, but a druid has to be at least partly neutral. Devoted Performer suspends that rule for bards, but Devoted Tracker doesn't do that for druids, as it has only the ranger in mind.

Yeah, so? It's says qualification, not benefit.

It's not technically stated, but on a practical level, it would have to substitute for the benefit as well, or you wouldn't be able to use most of the ambush feats (since the text typically requires you forgo sneak attack dice to gain the benefit).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I disagree, since the feats allow other classes to increase the SA dice, in addition to rogue. Again, since there are feats that specify ninja classes in the same book, it seems intentional that only saying rogue is a deliberate limitation of the feat.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Ok Draco has a point there. There are feats that do say ninja in the description bu none of those feats increase sudden strike it all has to deal with ki pool not one feat that says ninja also increases you sudden strike but with sudden strike you qualify for all the ambush feats and they say SA only in them.

so rom what you guys are saying if you are a ninja with a sudden strike of 6D6 you can take disembowelling strike but not use it because you do not have sneak attack that you need you need to reduce for the effect 

anyone other then me see how stuip that is ? And how much it makes no sense what so ever  
Yeah, so? It's says qualification, not benefit.

It's not technically stated, but on a practical level, it would have to substitute for the benefit as well, or you wouldn't be able to use most of the ambush feats (since the text typically requires you forgo sneak attack dice to gain the benefit).

I fail to see how this is relevant. 
anyone other then me see how stuip that is ? And how much it makes no sense what so ever  

It makes perfect sense. It's WotC's subtle way of saying "Ninjas are among the worst-written base classes in the game. They make Samurai look good."
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I don't think you can reasonably shoot the entire idea of sneak attack/sudden strike substitution in the foot just because it doesn't seem to work so well for Daring Outlaw.  If you substitute sudden strike into the benefit text of Daring Outlaw, the relevant sentence says:

"Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sudden strike bonus damage."

Which is fine, because it does nothing since neither rogue nor swashbuckler levels grant sudden strike (you're stacking the levels together to calculate an ability that they don't have).  It means that it's useless to qualify for Daring Outlaw with sudden strike because it was specifically designed to use rogue levels for its calculation.

The ambush feats really use sneak attack itself without referring to specific classes, so they function as expected when you switch sudden strike into their benefit text as well as their prerequisites.
I fail to see how this is relevant.

It means that the substitution has to apply for benefits as well as prerequisites, or it wouldn't serve its intended function.  It doesn't mess up Daring Outlaw to do this, because that feat was specifically written to use rogue levels.

Oh, and it's actually the official RAW answer on the matter as well, at least for ambush feats.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Just because you can take a feat doesn't always mean you can actually use it.
Then taking the feat in the first place is pointless but that is besides the point working this over an over in my head I have decided to try for something different and will have to work it out but the basic idea is this 

get as much str and BAB as I can to make several attacks that make people cry with pain

ideas are this
race Goliath
presige class Kensai 5 War shaper 2 druid 5 
that if Iam right will give me with a 18 to start 4 race 4 war shaper 8 kensai power serge 6 belt of giant strength for a total of 40 for a plus 26 to damage with power attack that is 39 damage with leap attack makes it 52 I think  
Then taking the feat in the first place is pointless... 



It's only pointless for a ninja...it works just fine for a rogue/swashbuckler! (To be honest, I agree that it should work with sudden strkie as well, but RAW...)



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Send me photos of this Darling Outlaw, and I'll let you know.
 



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Pretty much everything which advances Sneak also advances Sudden Strike. I'm not sure that there's not a note on it, but there probably should be.

However, as stated, the specific mention of Rogue levels makes this feat useless for advancing Sudden Strike anyway, regardless of what you think about that.

Now, as a DM I would be tempted to allow it, and it's certainly a fairly reasonable thing to ask of a DM. However, as stated, it does not work even for any of the myriad other classes which grant actualy Sneak Attack, so it certainly will not work fur Sudden.

We can argue semantics, but what it boils down to is (surprise surprise), "ask your DM".
@Slagger: So? Again, you've provided nothing of any relevence.

@Everyone else:...You do realize you don't actually need rogue levels, right? 0+x=x. Thus, even without Rogue levels, you can benefit.

Am I the only one with even the slightest capability for reading comprehension here? 
@OP: Remember the rule? Though shalt not lose caster levels. Druid is beyond pointless in your build.  
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
@Slagger: So? Again, you've provided nothing of any relevence.

Your personally-stated failure to see the relevance doesn't mean it's not there.    The relevance comes from understanding what does and does not substitute for the purpose of reading the feat.

Stacking levels of rogue and swashbuckler for the purposes of sudden strike is like saying "I have 20 levels of commoner for the purpose of determining my barbarian rage." when you have no levels in barbarian.

What you'd need for Daring Outlaw to work with sudden strike is the ability to subsitute "ninja" for "rogue" or "swashbuckler" in the benefit text of a feat, but there is no official support for that possibility.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Your personally-stated failure to see the relevance doesn't mean it's not there.    The relevance comes from understanding what does and does not substitute for the purpose of reading the feat.

Nope. You've provided nothing at all that could possibly mean that Sudden Strike is improved by Sneak Attack improving feats. 
Stacking levels of rogue and swashbuckler for the purposes of sudden strike is like saying "I have 20 levels of commoner for the purpose of determining my barbarian rage." when you have no levels in barbarian.

You aren't really good at reading, are you? Daring Outlaw says it stacks your levels of Rogue and Swashbuckler. You don't actually need Rogue levels for this. Nice try at a strawman, though. No, actually, no it wasn't. At all. It was kinda sad, really.
What you'd need for Daring Outlaw to work with sudden strike is the ability to subsitute "ninja" for "rogue" or "swashbuckler" in the benefit text of a feat, but there is no official support for that possibility.

Nope. Nothing at all in Daring Outlaw says anything in the slightest about Ninja or Sudden Strike. Please don't try again, you'll only further humiliate yourself.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Guys. You seem to be agreeing that the feat doesn't work (I don't know, I only read half of the argument) but now you're arguing over why? Seriously, grow up!
Guys. You seem to be agreeing that the feat doesn't work (I don't know, I only read half of the argument) but now you're arguing over why?

Well, the why of it is important, but there does seem to be some kind of serious breakdown in communication.  Hopefully we can put ourselves straight on that point.
You've provided nothing at all that could possibly mean that Sudden Strike is improved by Sneak Attack improving feats.

Are you trying to talk about Daring Outlaw (which doesn't work with sudden strike, due to the classes in its benefit text) or ambush feats (which work just fine with sudden strike).

I said sudden strike works with ambush feats (Daring Outlaw isn't an ambush feat), and that even if you applied the sudden strike substitutions for ambush feats to Daring Outlaw, it wouldn't work because the text specifically calls for rogue levels, rather than ninja levels.
You aren't really good at reading, are you? Daring Outlaw says it stacks your levels of Rogue and Swashbuckler. You don't actually need Rogue levels for this. Nice try at a strawman, though. No, actually, no it wasn't. At all. It was kinda sad, really.

I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to say, but it sounds like you think it's about something else, so let's clarify the point:

I'm saying that the reason Daring Outlaw doesn't work with sudden strike (even if you allowed the ambush feat substitution method) is because the text stacks rogue and swashbuckler levels.  While that stacking might be useful for sneak attack, it's not useful for sudden strike, because neither rogue nor swashbuckler grants sudden strike.
What you'd need for Daring Outlaw to work with sudden strike is the ability to subsitute "ninja" for "rogue" or "swashbuckler" in the benefit text of a feat, but there is no official support for that possibility.

Nope. Nothing at all in Daring Outlaw says anything in the slightest about Ninja or Sudden Strike. Please don't try again, you'll only further humiliate yourself.

This is just bizarre.

You object to a statement about there being no official support for what you'd hypothetically need to make something work by agreeing with the fact of it being unsupported?

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Page 8 of Complete Adventurer, sidebar.
"For the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and similar options that require a minimum number of sneak attack extra damage dice, treat the ninja’s sudden strike ability as the equivalent of sneak attack."
Thank you and have a nice day.
Page 8 of Complete Adventurer, sidebar.
"For the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and similar options that require a minimum number of sneak attack extra damage dice, treat the ninja’s sudden strike ability as the equivalent of sneak attack."
Thank you and have a nice day.

For completeness, the section on ambush feats from Drow of the Underdark (page 53), includes an important clarification on the overall sneak attack/sudden strike interaction stating: "Furthermore, whenever an ambush feat mentions sneak attack, you can substitute sudden strike."

But just so no-one gets confused, this doesn't apply to Daring Outlaw (which isn't an ambush feat), and even if you did apply it, it wouldn't make Daring Outlaw useful for advancing sudden strike.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Guys. You seem to be agreeing that the feat doesn't work (I don't know, I only read half of the argument) but now you're arguing over why? Seriously, grow up!

No. I am pointing out that Swashbuckler can stack with nonexistent rogue levels, making it decently useful here. They're just being dense.
You've provided nothing at all that could possibly mean that Sudden Strike is improved by Sneak Attack improving feats.

Are you trying to talk about Daring Outlaw (which doesn't work with sudden strike, due to the classes in its benefit text) or ambush feats (which work just fine with sudden strike).

I said sudden strike works with ambush feats (Daring Outlaw isn't an ambush feat), and that even if you applied the sudden strike substitutions for ambush feats to Daring Outlaw, it wouldn't work because the text specifically calls for rogue levels, rather than ninja levels.

...And nothing herd matters, or really has anything to do with what I'n saying.
I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to say, but it sounds like you think it's about something else, so let's clarify the point:

I'm saying that the reason Daring Outlaw doesn't work with sudden strike (even if you allowed the ambush feat substitution method) is because the text stacks rogue and swashbuckler levels.  While that stacking might be useful for sneak attack, it's not useful for sudden strike, because neither rogue nor swashbuckler grants sudden strike.

Correct. However, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. 

Here', I'll try to make it as mind-numbingly simple as possible: Ninja lets you qualify for DO. DO lets you stack your rogue and swashbuckler levels. It never says anywhere that you need Rogue levels. Therefore, a ninja/swashbuckler with DO gains sneak attack as a rogue of its swashbuckler levels. Clear?
This is just bizarre.

You object to a statement about there being no official support for what you'd hypothetically need to make something work by agreeing with the fact of it being unsupported?

Nope. Not at all. 0+X=X. Therefore, a Ninja 5/Swashbuckler 5 with Do has sneak attack equal to Rogue 5. There is nothing that contradicts this very basic piece of arithmatic.
Page 8 of Complete Adventurer, sidebar.
"For the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and similar options that require a minimum number of sneak attack extra damage dice, treat the ninja’s sudden strike ability as the equivalent of sneak attack."
Thank you and have a nice day.

Emphasis mine. Which doesn't matter, as everyone knew this at the beginning.

A more useful point would be to ask what in the Burning Hate's name would make anyone think using either ninja or swashbuckler, much less both, would be a good idea.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
What you'd need for Daring Outlaw to work with sudden strike is the ability to subsitute "ninja" for "rogue" or "swashbuckler" in the benefit text of a feat, but there is no official support for that possibility.

Nope. Nothing at all in Daring Outlaw says anything in the slightest about Ninja or Sudden Strike. Please don't try again, you'll only further humiliate yourself.

This is just bizarre.

You object to a statement about there being no official support for what you'd hypothetically need to make something work by agreeing with the fact of it being unsupported?

I think "breakdown in communication" is right on the spot here.
Unfortunately, blocked posts are revealed when quoting, but it means I can actually see what's going on here. Wink

EA was actually making a fairly sensible (believe it or not) point (albeit something of a side point) about the fact that being able to qualify via Ninja could actually be useful for given Swash levels Sneak Attack (if you were actually going to be a Swash/Ninja).
Unfortunately, his "reading comprehension" skills do not seem to be quite what he'd like to think; the above is a hypothetical scenario about what would make Daring Outlaw apply to Ninja as if Ninja were Rogue and Sudden were Sneak, NOT a suggestion that that's how it DOES work.

In fact, both of you two seem to be arguing not only the same result, but even the same reasoning, so maybe we can agree to agree (unusual, I know) and call it a day? Smile 
I think "breakdown in communication" is right on the spot here.

My part of the blame is probably for mixing in hypotheticals and assuming that what I'm saying will be obvious.

For example, I mentioned about what you would have happen if you could use the ambush feat method of application (which affects the feat's benefit text as well as the prerequisites) on Daring Outlaw, but that runs up against some weird discontinuity, because the feat is written from the viewpoint of stacking a class with sneak attack and a class without it.  When you substitute "sudden strike" in place of "sneak attack" (as the ambush feat definition allows for ambush feats), you're now stacking together two classes without sudden strike in order to calculate sudden strike, without actually stacking them with the class that does grant sudden strike.  It's bizarre in a way that doesn't really function.

The sneak attack bit EA was discussing does work (if you get even the most minimal sneak attack ability from somewhere), but I may have inadvertently given the impression that I was talking about the sneak attack angle when addressing sudden strike.
Ninja lets you qualify for DO. DO lets you stack your rogue and swashbuckler levels. It never says anywhere that you need Rogue levels. Therefore, a ninja/swashbuckler with DO gains sneak attack as a rogue of its swashbuckler levels. Clear?

I'm glad we've managed to clarify what we're discussing.  I've primarily been talking about advancing sudden strike with Daring Outlaw, not the possibilities for advancing sneak attack instead.

The only part where I disagree with the reasoning for the ninja is that you need at least a basic 1d6 sneak attack from somewhere before the stacking will be able to contribute (you don't need rogue specifically, just some source for sneak attack).  If you don't actually have a sneak attack ability, stacking classes to determine its bonus damage value is setting the total for something you don't have.  The feat allows you to work out the value for your sneak attack, but doesn't grant you the ability if you don't already have it.

For example, a ninja 7/swashbuckler 4 could taking Daring Outlaw, and would technically be dealing 6d6 damage with her sneak attack, but since she doesn't have a sneak attack, it's not very useful to her.  But add in access to Assassin's Stance (or any other source for even a single dice of sneak attack damage) and she's up to full power, since she now has the ability that Daring Outlaw improves.

I agree that Daring Outlaw can be useful without any actual rogue levels, and you can even use the rogue 0+swashbuckler X as the value (just as you say).  All you do need is some initial source of the sneak attack ability in order to make it function, since the ninja doesn't get it from her class.
A more useful point would be to ask what in the Burning Hate's name would make anyone think using either ninja or swashbuckler, much less both, would be a good idea.

Maybe a deliberately low-tier game?  The basic functions would also still work if you had a better, more effective version of the classes.  Like a ninja homebrew with more and better ki abilities, and enough juice to run them for a decent amount of time.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I'm glad we've managed to clarify what we're discussing.  I've primarily been talking about advancing sudden strike with Daring Outlaw, not the possibilities for advancing sneak attack instead.

The only part where I disagree with the reasoning for the ninja is that you need at least a basic 1d6 sneak attack from somewhere before the stacking will be able to contribute (you don't need rogue specifically, just some source for sneak attack).  If you don't actually have a sneak attack ability, stacking classes to determine its bonus damage value is setting the total for something you don't have.  The feat allows you to work out the value for your sneak attack, but doesn't grant you the ability if you don't already have it.

For example, a ninja 7/swashbuckler 4 could taking Daring Outlaw, and would technically be dealing 6d6 damage with her sneak attack, but since she doesn't have a sneak attack, it's not very useful to her.  But add in access to Assassin's Stance (or any other source for even a single dice of sneak attack damage) and she's up to full power, since she now has the ability that Daring Outlaw improves.

I agree that Daring Outlaw can be useful without any actual rogue levels, and you can even use the rogue 0+swashbuckler X as the value (just as you say).  All you do need is some initial source of the sneak attack ability in order to make it function, since the ninja doesn't get it from her class.

Wrong. Nothing ever says that. I see nothing in the feat that explicitly states you need Sneak Attack.
A more useful point would be to ask what in the Burning Hate's name would make anyone think using either ninja or swashbuckler, much less both, would be a good idea.

Maybe a deliberately low-tier game?  The basic functions would also still work if you had a better, more effective version of the classes.

So? ****ing TRUENAMER is better than both of those classes, and it's a class that literally does not function. When you're on a level below the class thats main class feature is to get weaker as it levels up, you've got serious problems.
Like a ninja homebrew with more and better ki abilities, and enough juice to run them for a decent amount of time.

That already exists. It's called "factotum." Or "Swordsage."
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I see nothing in the feat that explicitly states you need Sneak Attack.

The feat says that "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage."

It allows you to determine the amount of damage that a sneak attack deals, but it never says that you gain the sneak attack ability if you don't already have it.  If you have no sneak attack, all it does is tell you the right amount of damage for an ability you don't possess.

It's like having Weapon Specialization to increase the damage of a longsword when you don't have a longsword.  You have improved damage, but you need the mechanism for delivering that damage for a higher value to be useful.
A more useful point would be to ask what in the Burning Hate's name would make anyone think using either ninja or swashbuckler, much less both, would be a good idea.

Maybe a deliberately low-tier game?  The basic functions would also still work if you had a better, more effective version of the classes.

So? ****ing TRUENAMER is better than both of those classes, and it's a class that literally does not function. When you're on a level below the class thats main class feature is to get weaker as it levels up, you've got serious problems.

It's rare to have a restriction like "only classes of Tier 4 and lower are available", but it's not invalid as a campaign idea, and the mechanical interaction for Daring Outlaw won't have changed.
Like a ninja homebrew with more and better ki abilities, and enough juice to run them for a decent amount of time.

That already exists. It's called "factotum." Or "Swordsage."

They are alternatives for the general role and style, though not direct substitutions for the ninja class and all of its mechanical interactions.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Actually, I'd say that's debatable. If your Rogue and Swash levels stack for determining Sneak, yeah, I'd be tempted to say that that would grant sneak (and actually, sneak and sudden stack, so a Ninja/Swash is no less viable than a Rogue/Swash in some ways - emphasis on some)... though I can see the argument that you need to have a level for something to stack with (you could argue that having no levels in Rogue is not the same as having 0 levels in Rogue, just like Divine Rank or how 0 is not equal to "null") and if a DM said "no", well, no big deal. Personally I'd probably allow it, though.
Actually, I'd say that's debatable. If your Rogue and Swash levels stack for determining Sneak, yeah, I'd be tempted to say that that would grant sneak (and actually, sneak and sudden stack, so a Ninja/Swash is no less viable than a Rogue/Swash in some ways - emphasis on some)... though I can see the argument that you need to have a level for something to stack with (you could argue that having no levels in Rogue is not the same as having 0 levels in Rogue, just like Divine Rank or how 0 is not equal to "null") and if a DM said "no", well, no big deal. Personally I'd probably allow it, though.

It's not so much about the number of levels in rogue being 0 or none so much as the fact that the classes in question only stack for the purpose of determining the sneak attack damage, not whether you actually have the sneak attack ability.

Even though it's often written as things like "+2d6 sneak attack", the ability itself encompasses all the things about when it can be used, who is immune, and so forth.  The amount of sneak attack damage you deal is just one number (of dice) in the sneak attack ability; it's not the entire ability all by itself.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I see nothing in the feat that explicitly states you need Sneak Attack.

The feat says that "Your rogue and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage."

It allows you to determine the amount of damage that a sneak attack deals, but it never says that you gain the sneak attack ability if you don't already have it.  If you have no sneak attack, all it does is tell you the right amount of damage for an ability you don't possess.

Wrong. Your Rogue levels and your Swashbuckler levels stack, period. There is no mention of it requiring Sneak Attack to grant thin benefit. That's the rules.

It's like having Weapon Specialization to increase the damage of a longsword when you don't have a longsword.  You have improved damage, but you need the mechanism for delivering that damage for a higher value to be useful.

No, it's like getting extra hours at a part-time job when you didn't have any hours scheduled that week. But, hey, if you like false analogies and logical contortions, fine, be my guest, but you're still wrong.
 It's rare to have a restriction like "only classes of Tier 4 and lower are available", but it's not invalid as a campaign idea, and the mechanical interaction for Daring Outlaw won't have changed.

There's a difference between using mediocre classes and intentionally making your build suck. Using either, much less both, falls under the latter.
They are alternatives for the general role and style, though not direct substitutions for the ninja class and all of its mechanical interactions.

...Nope. Both classes are completely capable of doing anything the Ninja can do, and doing it better. There is literally no reason to use Ninja. At all.Ever. Under any circumstances.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I can see what Slagger is saying and can agree with his interpretation.  With DO and Swashbuckler levels your levels in Swashbuckler would count to SA damage IF YOU HAVE SNEAK ATTACK.  Without SA all you have is potential.

It is a little like taking a PRC that says under spells "+1 existing spellcasting class" when you don't actually have any spellcasting.  Some classes may specify that you gain another class's spellcasting yet there are other classes where gaining that ability means you get nothing.  If a Barbarian/Fighter were to take a level in Dragonslayer it doesn NOT spontaneously gain any spellcasting despite Dragonslayer advancing spellcasting.
There is no mention of it requiring Sneak Attack to grant thin benefit.

The benefit in question is being able to stack the levels in question for determining your sneak attack's damage.  There's no mention of it granting sneak attack if you don't already have it, just of improving the bonus damage it deals.
No, it's like getting extra hours at a part-time job when you didn't have any hours scheduled that week. But, hey, if you like false analogies and logical contortions, fine, be my guest, but you're still wrong.

They're both valid analogies, but I'm happy to go with yours:

In the analogy of getting extra hours at a part-time job, you have to already be signed up for the job in the first place.  Getting more sneak attack damage without having sneak attack to begin with is like getting extra hours at a job you don't have.
 It's rare to have a restriction like "only classes of Tier 4 and lower are available", but it's not invalid as a campaign idea, and the mechanical interaction for Daring Outlaw won't have changed.

There's a difference between using mediocre classes and intentionally making your build suck. Using either, much less both, falls under the latter.

Either or both of what?  The only thing we've mentioned other than the two mediocre classes (ninja and swashbuckler) is Daring Outlaw.
They are alternatives for the general role and style, though not direct substitutions for the ninja class and all of its mechanical interactions.

...Nope. Both classes are completely capable of doing anything the Ninja can do, and doing it better. There is literally no reason to use Ninja. At all.Ever. Under any circumstances.

That's obviously not true since we've been discussing a circumstance under which the ninja/swashbuckler would be more viable than either due to them being unavailable (the factotum and swordsage are both rated too high for a low-tier game).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I think it more depends whether you consider yourself to have an effective +0d6 sneak attack. Spellcasting doesn't work this way, but things like, say, clothing for the purposes of Magic Vestment does (it counts as +0 armour). You have a +0 Natural Armour bonus, etc. I'd be tempted to think sneak works more like casting, yes, but it doesn't seem to be called out explicitly anywhere.
I was all set to agree with EA... But then I noticed that Assassin's Stance actually has specific wording to GRANT sneak attack. Therefore, the evidence has me leaning towards Slagger's interpretation.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Let's steer away from personal attacks, please.
I was all set to agree with EA... But then I noticed that Assassin's Stance actually has specific wording to GRANT sneak attack. Therefore, the evidence has me leaning towards Slagger's interpretation.


This is why I maintain, say, Swashbuckler 20 + Assassin's Stance + Daring Outlaw would have 10d6+2d6 sneak attack while in Assassin's Stance, but 0d6 when outside of that stance (loss of prerequisite deactivates the feat regardless of how you read it).

For the benefit of those without a ToB handy, that phrasing is " While you are in this stance, you gain the sneak attack ability, if you do not already have it, which deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. If you already have the sneak attack class feature, your existing sneak attack ability deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. "

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.