## Killing Wave timing question

10 posts / 0 new
clatong
Joined Feb 2011
477 Posts
I have two different scenarios, and am not positive on the outcome of either (if they are different at all).

Let's say that in a 1:1 game I have a Blood Artist, as well as two other creatures (none with sacrifice outlets), and my oponent has three creatures.  We are both at 3 life.  I play Killing Wave, with x being 4.

My question revolves around the timing now.  Is it possible for me to say that I want to sacrifice my other two creatures, and keep my Blood Artist?  Put another way, can I say that I choose to "pay 4 life" to keep the Blood Artist, but sacrifice the other two, which using the Blood Artist's ability would gain me two life, and leave me at 1?  Or would I not be able to pay 4 life because that would first put me below 0 life?  I'm guessing that I cannot because his ability wouldn't trigger until they hit the graveyard, but am not sure.

I assume this scenario has the same answer, but what if I had just the Blood Artist, and my opponent had two creatures.  Since he has to sacrifice both of his creatures, would I be able to pay 4 life to keep my single creature?

Thanks!
Enigma256
Joined Jul 2010
14845 Posts
you'll lose before the triggers from Blood Artist are put on the stack
you can't pay life you don't have, so you'll lose all your creatures

but, good news, Blood Artist doesn't need to survive to trigger, just sac all your creatures and kill your opponent
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ikegami
Joined Nov 2007
2265 Posts
Or would I not be able to pay 4 life because that would first put me below 0 life?

You cannot choose to pay a cost you cannot pay. You only have three life, so that's the maximum you can pay.

If X was 3 instead and you chose to pay with all of your life, you'd lose.

1. Killing Wave resolves: You choose to pay 3 life to save one of your creatures, and two of your creatures die, triggering Blood Artist twice.

2. SBAs are checked. You lose here if you have non-positive life.

3. Blood Artist's triggered ability is placed on the stack twice.

4. Players get priority.

5. The second triggered ability resolves: Gain one life.

6. Players get priority.

7. The first triggered ability resolves: Gain one life.

clatong
Joined Feb 2011
477 Posts
Thank you both!  The actual example was slightly different, so sacrificing all of my guys wouldn't quite have killed him, but it still answers the question!
Diplomat_of_Chaos
Joined Oct 2012
835 Posts
keep in mind blood artist's ability triggers even with your opponent's creatures...so as long as 3 creatures were on the battlefield you would have won

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Coredump00
Joined Nov 2012
3436 Posts

but, good news, Blood Artist doesn't need to survive to trigger, just sac all your creatures and kill your opponent

Could someone go into a bit more detail as to why it works this way?

Argus_Panoptes
Joined Sep 2004
5640 Posts
Could someone go into a bit more detail as to why it works this way?

603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to "look back in time" to determine if these abilities trigger.
Example: Two creatures are on the battlefield along with an artifact that has the ability "Whenever a creature dies, you gain 1 life." Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact's ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner's graveyard at the same time as the creatures.

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Zoidberg
Joined Aug 2005
3042 Posts
Note that if YOU were at 4 life and decided to pay 4 life for one of your creatures, you would have lost before the artist's ability even go on the stack (just after the wave resolved).

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

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Coredump00
Joined Nov 2012
3436 Posts
thx a lot
Chaikov
Joined Jun 2006
8449 Posts

but, good news, Blood Artist doesn't need to survive to trigger, just sac all your creatures and kill your opponent

Could someone go into a bit more detail as to why it works this way?

Even if Blood Artist dies simultaneously with those other creatures, it still «sees» all those deaths, and triggers accordingly.

As a general rule, when objects leave the Field simultaneously, every one sees everyone else leaving.
Symetrically, when objects enter the Field simultaneously, every one sees everyone else entering.

As Argus_Panoptes quoted, rule 603.6 explains this, albeit in a very cryptic way...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.                        -Albert Einstein

So, you keep on voting, and you keep expecting different results from those elections?

How long have you tried this, over and over?