A Tarmogoyf Ban on the Horizon?

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Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised. And don't give me that "hurr but its in Modern Masters."
I'm willing to bet money that if BBE doesn't show up in Modern Masters, that it is only because of a last minute removal by WotC. 

(at)MrEnglish22

They won't ban Goyf.  It is a conerstone of the format, and a major draw to playing Modern.  I, and probably half the people I play Modern with, would definitely stop playing the format if it were to be banned.  It's not like the card is actually format breaking.

And BBE is definitely going to be in Masters.  The set was probably finished being designed by the time it was banned. 
Look, Goyf may be good, but he's a Vanilla beater that's also vulnerable to GY hate.


Also, why would WotC bother spoiling him as the 1st card for MM if they're going to ban him?


As for BBE, I find it logical to be in and logical to be out, due to what Admiral said.
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I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy. For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins. For Modern, I have a B/G/U/W Draw-go Reanimator featuring my favorite creature, Wurmcoil Engine. For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension. I also run a Naya Zoo with all the oldies. For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm. A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely. However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.
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I would say that it'd just a beater that does nothing but tap and that there's really no reason to ban it for that.

But then again, the same could be said of Wild Nacatl.

Though I find it more likely that they'll try and nerf it by releasing more cards like Deathrite Shaman.
I thought he was going to be banned long ago to balance zoo but then they hammered Wild Nacatl. Then Jund started getting rampant and I thought for sure that they'd ban him. Nope, Bloodbraid Elf
I don't claim to be an expert about Modern tournement play and legality but it seems to me like they ban cards that create an extremely quick advantage which ends the game in very few turns. I was under the impression that they banned BBE because it cascaded into Liliana so quickly. Same goes for Seething Song: it ended games too quickly.

Goyf is powerful but like everyone else has said, he's just a vanilla beater thats big for his cost. I mean, one Ultimate Price and he's gone.

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4115936

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Griselbrand (French)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

@Smoke:  That's only one reason why they ban cards in Modern.  It's certainly why Song got the boot.  However, that's not the reason BBE got beat with the ban hammer.

The first reason they ban cards in the format are that it decreaes diversity of the field.  Jund was THE major player in Modern.  I'd guess that at one point it was closing in on 40% of the meta.  So the DCI had to ban something out of the deck to make it less dominate.  Given the nature of the deck as a "good stuff" deck, the vast majority of the cards were played in other decks in the format.  BBE however, was only played in Jund.  Therefore, in order to increase diversity, they correctly banned the one card no other deck was playing.
And after they banned BBE, all the Jund players moved into Junk, splashing for Bolt and Ajani V.

You notice how the decks getting the recent targetted bans all run Tarmogoyf, and the top decks continue to run Tarmogoyf in almost the exact same shell as pre-BBE banning.

Not to mention that Tarmogoyf alone is a prohibitor for new players to get into the format, even with their oxymoronic Modern Masters. Say what you will, but WotC needs to do something about that $120 price mark if they want the format to catch on.

(at)MrEnglish22

Jund didn't just turn into Junk splash Bolt.  There's still "traditional" Jund (using other 4 drops, or some other tweaks), straight Junk, BUG and such.  You're mistaking Jund as a Goyf deck.  It's really a Deathrite Shaman/Dark Confidant/Liliana of the Veil deck.  When you play only the best spells of 2-3 colors, you tend to play the same cards regardless of the third/fourth color.

The reason all the decks that BBE's banning run Goyf is that the card is the most efficient beater available.  Without it, the disruption you get by playing black cards (and the only reason to play black in the format) isn't going to buy you enough time to beat combo decks.  Goyf isn't the core of these decks, it's just the way for the decks to end games quickly.

What you're asking for isn't reasonable.  You ban Goyf, you basically ban green.  What on earth are you going to play base-green decks for now?  Sure, you still want green for the other 3rd of DRS, and maybe Abrupt Decay, but the decks are no longer B/G/x decks.  They're B/X/g decks.  You also essentially ban black on top of it since all of the best black cards interact favorably with Goyf, and without Goyf there isn't enough power in the other cards to keep the deck together.  So what are you left with?  UWR vs. all the combo, and that sounds like a horrible format.

Is Goyf's price prohibitive of joining the format?  Absolutely.  I'm fairly well off in terms of Magic cards.  I'm well on the way to owning all the major decks in Modern.  I own multiple Legacy decks.  I own practically all of the relevant Standard cards.  I don't own Goyfs (yet), and I balk at the $100+ price tag it has.  That doesn't mean it should be banned.  There are tons of other decks in the format that don't play Goyf and are highly successful.  Just look at Eggs (with won the PT, as well as a couple GPs).  It's super cheap and highly competitive.  Look at Tron, Twin, Groyo's Vengeance.  All of these are cheap(ish) decks that are competitive, don't play Goyf and easily beat Goyf decks.

I contend that the Goyf decks aren't even any where close to being the best decks in the format.  They can't easily deal with the combo decks.  They lost a ton of versatility when BBE got axed.  They simply can't withstand the pressure of the other decks.  There is no possible reason to ban Goyf other than whiny little brats complaining that they can't have them too.
Banning goyf isn't necessary. There's no GSZ to fetch it up anyways.

People need to be asking why is the ban-list as big as it is, instead of adding to it.
I think unbanning at least a third of the ban-list would be an excellent start.  
Banning goyf isn't necessary. There's no GSZ to fetch it up anyways.

People need to be asking why is the ban-list as big as it is, instead of adding to it.
I think unbanning at least a third of the ban-list would be an excellent start.  



And start with GSZ. It's the one card that actually makes green critter decks fun to play.
I agree.  It's not like GSZ enables a turn 2 kill of anything is it? 
I was under the impression GSZ was banned because of its ramp with Dryad Arbor.  I do agree that quite a bit of the ban list could be redacted, but it certainly isn't necessary.  The format seems qiute healthy at the moment to me, and on top of that, if anything got unbanned at the moment, I feel like it would need to be 3+ cards just to keep a level of balance.  Unfortunately, most banned cards are just combo enablers, and combo is prevalent enough without Ponder, Preordain, Skullclamp, artifact lands, and most of the rest of it.  Blazing Shoal, Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari Grave-Troll, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and a handful of other cards are the only non-combo cards on the list.
Favorite set: Arabian Nights Favorite planeswalker: Taysir, the One Made of Five Favorite book cycle: Ice Age Favorite creature type(s): Elephant (W), Minotaur (R), Shade (B), Spider (G), Cephalid (U) Myr (Artifact) Pauper: Monoblack Control Modern: Zombie Tribal; Unyaro Stax Cube: The Moons of Mirrodin
I was under the impression GSZ was banned because of its ramp with Dryad Arbor.  I do agree that quite a bit of the ban list could be redacted, but it certainly isn't necessary.  The format seems qiute healthy at the moment to me, and on top of that, if anything got unbanned at the moment, I feel like it would need to be 3+ cards just to keep a level of balance.  Unfortunately, most banned cards are just combo enablers, and combo is prevalent enough without Ponder, Preordain, Skullclamp, artifact lands, and most of the rest of it.  Blazing Shoal, Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari Grave-Troll, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and a handful of other cards are the only non-combo cards on the list.





I would put the Troll under combo, as well as Blazing Shoal.

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I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy. For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins. For Modern, I have a B/G/U/W Draw-go Reanimator featuring my favorite creature, Wurmcoil Engine. For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension. I also run a Naya Zoo with all the oldies. For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm. A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely. However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.
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I was under the impression GSZ was banned because of its ramp with Dryad Arbor.  I do agree that quite a bit of the ban list could be redacted, but it certainly isn't necessary.  The format seems qiute healthy at the moment to me, and on top of that, if anything got unbanned at the moment, I feel like it would need to be 3+ cards just to keep a level of balance.  Unfortunately, most banned cards are just combo enablers, and combo is prevalent enough without Ponder, Preordain, Skullclamp, artifact lands, and most of the rest of it.  Blazing Shoal, Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari Grave-Troll, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and a handful of other cards are the only non-combo cards on the list.



I didn't realize that turn 2 kills using 3 cards wasn't a combo.
I also didn't know Dredge wasn't a combo deck. To be fair, its hard to call dredge a combo deck, where it barely even plays real magic.

GSZ was banned because it was ending up in 'all teh decks' and they were full of 20 silver bullets and 4 GSZ and 4 Pod and just pull out whatever they wanted. Not sure why they didn't like it, but they didn't. Think if they banned Dryad Arbor they would unban GSZ though.

(at)MrEnglish22

I was under the impression GSZ was banned because of its ramp with Dryad Arbor.  I do agree that quite a bit of the ban list could be redacted, but it certainly isn't necessary.  The format seems qiute healthy at the moment to me, and on top of that, if anything got unbanned at the moment, I feel like it would need to be 3+ cards just to keep a level of balance.  Unfortunately, most banned cards are just combo enablers, and combo is prevalent enough without Ponder, Preordain, Skullclamp, artifact lands, and most of the rest of it.  Blazing Shoal, Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari Grave-Troll, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and a handful of other cards are the only non-combo cards on the list.



I didn't realize that turn 2 kills using 3 cards wasn't a combo.
I also didn't know Dredge wasn't a combo deck. To be fair, its hard to call dredge a combo deck, where it barely even plays real magic.

GSZ was banned because it was ending up in 'all teh decks' and they were full of 20 silver bullets and 4 GSZ and 4 Pod and just pull out whatever they wanted. Not sure why they didn't like it, but they didn't. Think if they banned Dryad Arbor they would unban GSZ though.



I don't think T2-3 win is necessarily a combo.  Modern Infect is nowhere near what I'd call a combo deck.  But it can still win that early, and with a decent level of consistency.  

With what you've said in consideration though, that leaves us with Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, Sword of the Meek, Umezawa's Jitte, and Wild Nacatl.  So, 6/30 cards, 20% of the banned list, isn't combo.

And there are still a dozen playable combo decks in the format.  I think the list is mostly fine. 
Favorite set: Arabian Nights Favorite planeswalker: Taysir, the One Made of Five Favorite book cycle: Ice Age Favorite creature type(s): Elephant (W), Minotaur (R), Shade (B), Spider (G), Cephalid (U) Myr (Artifact) Pauper: Monoblack Control Modern: Zombie Tribal; Unyaro Stax Cube: The Moons of Mirrodin
Bloodbraid Elf is only on the banlist because Jund is the most popular deck.  Any other reason anyone else can think of?   Was it a mistake to create a format where we have to ban cards that aren't powerful in order to balance the field. 
WTF?!?!
 Sword of the Meek is a joke. It does not need to be on the banlist at all, nor Wild Nacatl for me.

Golgari Grave-Troll isn't a force without Dread Return (or Flayer of the Hatebound in play).  Despite Dredge having almost none of the accelerators that makes it so degenerate in legacy/vintage, the remaining legal cards have all been banned to oblivion.  This is in a format where we have Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Grafdiggers Cage etc etc to hate it out anyway.
 Boooo!  Bring back dredge!!

I can understand Stoneforge and Jitte being on the banlist - despite them both being fair cards.  Modern has very few of the *free* cards, like Reverent Silence, Force of Will, Contagion etc. to respond to a must-answer like Jitte. 
And Jace the Arse Raper?  YEah - hé can stay banned.  Anyone who played standard back when he was around can tell you how much THAT sucked.
Bloodbraid Elf prevented other fair decks from being able to exist in the format. Banning it is good because Jund vs. Combo Decks is not a good format. 

In any format with a lot of cards in the pool you can make degenerate combo decks whether it is Modern, Vintage, Legacy, or even Pauper.

Sword of the Meek is a combo with Thopter Foundry. Were you aware?

Golgari Gave troll is good without Dread Return. Not sure what you're talking about.  
I'm not saying the BBE ban was bad (it was definitely hindering diversity), but looking back on the Jund vs. Combo format, I find it preferable to the current format of Combo only.  There was a reason why Jund was the only fair deck, and it was because it was the only one that could compete with all the combo.  Now that it's gone, there's nothing keeping it in check...
I'm not saying the BBE ban was bad (it was definitely hindering diversity), but looking back on the Jund vs. Combo format, I find it preferable to the current format of Combo only.  There was a reason why Jund was the only fair deck, and it was because it was the only one that could compete with all the combo.  Now that it's gone, there's nothing keeping it in check...



I hate to say it, but with how much Wizards hates combo, I have faith in that they'll be banning some more essential combo pieces.  I could definitely see Kiki-Jiki or Birthing Pod being banned, and I could even more-so see Reshape being banned.

Though, personally, I'm fine playing against combo.  I run a playset of Meddling Mage in my sideboard, and that tends to even up the field quite a bit. 
Favorite set: Arabian Nights Favorite planeswalker: Taysir, the One Made of Five Favorite book cycle: Ice Age Favorite creature type(s): Elephant (W), Minotaur (R), Shade (B), Spider (G), Cephalid (U) Myr (Artifact) Pauper: Monoblack Control Modern: Zombie Tribal; Unyaro Stax Cube: The Moons of Mirrodin
They should still unban Green Sun's Zenith. I'd like to see Modern Maverick be a thing.
They should still unban Green Sun's Zenith. I'd like to see Modern Maverick be a thing.



That and Wild Nacatl could and should be taken off the banned list.  Neither of them pose a threat to Jund, neither of them make Jund any more of a threat, and both of them allow other decks to compete with combo.  And that's really what we need.  Less combo.  More control (lol, poor control), and a little more aggro.
Favorite set: Arabian Nights Favorite planeswalker: Taysir, the One Made of Five Favorite book cycle: Ice Age Favorite creature type(s): Elephant (W), Minotaur (R), Shade (B), Spider (G), Cephalid (U) Myr (Artifact) Pauper: Monoblack Control Modern: Zombie Tribal; Unyaro Stax Cube: The Moons of Mirrodin
That and Wild Nacatl could and should be taken off the banned list.  Neither of them pose a threat to Jund, neither of them make Jund any more of a threat, and both of them allow other decks to compete with combo.  And that's really what we need.  Less combo.  More control (lol, poor control), and a little more aggro.



Don't even get me started on Nacatl.

"OH NO GUYS, A GOOD 1-DROP THAT CAN ONLY TURN SIDEWAYS AND NOTHING ELSE! THE FORMAT IS GONNA BURST RIGHT OPEN! BAN WHILE YOU CAN!"

And then that Seething Song ban. No, of course I didn't want Red Stompy to be a thing in the format. That would just be stupid without the double colourless lands.

*Sniff*
That and Wild Nacatl could and should be taken off the banned list.  Neither of them pose a threat to Jund, neither of them make Jund any more of a threat, and both of them allow other decks to compete with combo.  And that's really what we need.  Less combo.  More control (lol, poor control), and a little more aggro.



Don't even get me started on Nacatl.

"OH NO GUYS, A GOOD 1-DROP THAT CAN ONLY TURN SIDEWAYS AND NOTHING ELSE! THE FORMAT IS GONNA BURST RIGHT OPEN! BAN WHILE YOU CAN!"

And then that Seething Song ban. No, of course I didn't want Red Stompy to be a thing in the format. That would just be stupid without the double colourless lands.

*Sniff*



In all fairness, Seething Song attributed to a lot more than Dragon Stompy.  It's a pure and simple Storm/Combo piece.  I appreciate all of the fun, Timmy uses cards can have, but when Spike gets ahold of things, the banhammer comes out.  
Favorite set: Arabian Nights Favorite planeswalker: Taysir, the One Made of Five Favorite book cycle: Ice Age Favorite creature type(s): Elephant (W), Minotaur (R), Shade (B), Spider (G), Cephalid (U) Myr (Artifact) Pauper: Monoblack Control Modern: Zombie Tribal; Unyaro Stax Cube: The Moons of Mirrodin
In all fairness, Seething Song attributed to a lot more than Dragon Stompy.  It's a pure and simple Storm/Combo piece.  I appreciate all of the fun, Timmy uses cards can have, but when Spike gets ahold of things, the banhammer comes out.  



Right, but it wasn't broken yet. Can't we just ban cards if they turn out to be too good and then at least give them a shot first?
So, if you don't consider the combo of 3 cards creating a T2 win consistently to be a combo, what would you call it? And even if you can somehow justify that it ISN'T a combo through some BS grey area thing (because that's all it would be), its still a T2 kill, and WotC has expressively stated that they want Modern to be a T4 format.

Bloodbraid Elf is only on the banlist because Jund is the most popular deck.  Any other reason anyone else can think of?   Was it a mistake to create a format where we have to ban cards that aren't powerful in order to balance the field.  
WTF?!?!
 Sword of the Meek is a joke. It does not need to be on the banlist at all, nor Wild Nacatl for me. 

Golgari Grave-Troll isn't a force without Dread Return (or Flayer of the Hatebound in play).  Despite Dredge having almost none of the accelerators that makes it so degenerate in legacy/vintage, the remaining legal cards have all been banned to oblivion.  This is in a format where we have Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Grafdiggers Cage etc etc to hate it out anyway.
 Boooo!  Bring back dredge!!

I can understand Stoneforge and Jitte being on the banlist - despite them both being fair cards.  Modern has very few of the *free* cards, like Reverent Silence, Force of Will, Contagion etc. to respond to a must-answer like Jitte. 
And Jace the Arse Raper?  YEah - hé can stay banned.  Anyone who played standard back when he was around can tell you how much THAT sucked.



There is so much wrong in this post. I feel like you never actually played with these cards. Or against them. Thopter/Meek is by far one of the most powerful things you could do in this format, and isn't very fun to play against.

And seriously, if you're still losing to Eggs, you aren't packing enough hate. Plain and simple. Leyline + any other hate enchantment (like Rest in Peace or Supression Field [my personal favorite]) is enough if your deck does something other than durdle for 10 turns while trying to kill you with a 2/1. You don't get to jam just one Rest in Peace and assume you're fine. Though I do expect a Reshape ban in the coming month, maybe a Lotus Bloom ban. Because those two together is just a tad too good.

And all of you people who are crying to get Nacatl back off the Banned list - I agree, the reasoning for the banning was garbage, but its kind of hard to say "This was the best creature in the format, and made it so that every aggro deck was just Zoo, and everyone was playing an Aggro deck" in another way. It makes me seriously feel like you never played the format when Nacatl was in it. 

And Seething Song? "Oh noooooo, my cute little deck isn't good anymore because Storm was a T3 kill in what WotC wanted to be a T4 format, waaaaaaaaahhhhh" 


Obviously Modern isn't the perfect format, but they only really started making cards with Modern in mind the past two years or so. 

(at)MrEnglish22

So, if you don't consider the combo of 3 cards creating a T2 win consistently to be a combo, what would you call it? And even if you can somehow justify that it ISN'T a combo through some BS grey area thing (because that's all it would be), its still a T2 kill, and WotC has expressively stated that they want Modern to be a T4 format.



Who are you responding to, and about what?

And all of you people who are crying to get Nacatl back off the Banned list - I agree, the reasoning for the banning was garbage, but its kind of hard to say "This was the best creature in the format, and made it so that every aggro deck was just Zoo, and everyone was playing an Aggro deck" in another way. It makes me seriously feel like you never played the format when Nacatl was in it.



But that's because they nerfed blue into oblivion in recent years, not because the kitty is overpowered itself. And no, I never did play the format with that creature in it. You got me. I've been moving around through different countries for over a year now, so my chances of playing at all have been rather slim. However, I would rather see control buffed than have something banned. I mean, sheesh, is Counterspell really too good to be reprinted?

And Seething Song? "Oh noooooo, my cute little deck isn't good anymore because Storm was a T3 kill in what WotC wanted to be a T4 format, waaaaaaaaahhhhh"



I think your reading comprehension needs some work. As for the card, I have a hard time seeing why Seething Song would get banned unless Storm was a dominant force in the format. It wasn't. They were afraid that it would be in lieu of Jund's dominance, but it wasn't yet. Sure the deck allowed for a turn 3 kill. But it's combo. That janky UR Weird deck that everyone went nuts over a while ago allowed for turn 2 wins, but it wasn't exactly overpowered. A deck being able to do something fast doesn't make it dominant - that's why we have sideboards.

And I still don't see it with Green Sun's Zenith. Maybe the ramp with Dryad Arbor is overpowered, I can't say. In that case, however, it's Arbor that's the problem, being a 0-mana green creature that generates mana. What they should do is ban the Arbor, if anything - not Zenith.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">And Seething Song? "Oh noooooo, my cute little deck isn't good anymore because Storm was a T3 kill in what WotC wanted to be a T4 format, waaaaaaaaahhhhh"

You know you can fix that by just banning the Storm cards right?

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

So, if you don't consider the combo of 3 cards creating a T2 win consistently to be a combo, what would you call it? And even if you can somehow justify that it ISN'T a combo through some BS grey area thing (because that's all it would be), its still a T2 kill, and WotC has expressively stated that they want Modern to be a T4 format.



Who are you responding to, and about what?



The guy who didn't want to say that the old Infect deck was a combo deck, and thought Burning Shoal shouldn't be banned.


But that's because they nerfed blue into oblivion in recent years, not because the kitty is overpowered itself. And no, I never did play the format with that creature in it. You got me. I've been moving around through different countries for over a year now, so my chances of playing at all have been rather slim. However, I would rather see control buffed than have something banned. I mean, sheesh, is Counterspell really too good to be reprinted?



Counterspell would be miserable. You would have decks with 20 counterspells and Invisible Stalker (or something similar) and WotC doesn't want people to play reactive anymore-they want proactive play.


I think your reading comprehension needs some work. As for the card, I have a hard time seeing why Seething Song would get banned unless Storm was a dominant force in the format. It wasn't. They were afraid that it would be in lieu of Jund's dominance, but it wasn't yet.
Sure the deck allowed for a turn 3 kill. But it's combo. That janky UR Weird deck that everyone went nuts over a while ago allowed for turn 2 wins, but it wasn't exactly overpowered. A deck being able to do something fast doesn't make it dominant - that's why we have sideboards.


Storm was a turn 3 deck because of Seething Song. Consistently. WotC expressed rather loudly at the advent of the format that they didn't want decks winning on T3 with any sort of regularity. It wasn't about dominance at all. But, had they NOT banned Seething Song, Storm would quickly have become a dominant force in the format-it was already seeing increased play before the ban, and Jon Finkle himself was playing the deck every time he played Modern because he knew how good it was.
And honestly, they might end up banning something from that UR Weird deck if the meta shifts to allow it to be a powerhouse, but I don't ever see a format happening where people don't play Path to Exile.


And I still don't see it with Green Sun's Zenith. Maybe the ramp with Dryad Arbor is overpowered, I can't say. In that case, however, it's Arbor that's the problem, being a 0-mana green creature that generates mana. What they should do is ban the Arbor, if anything - not Zenith.


It wasn't just being able to GSZ for 0. It was being able to GSZ for 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 causing every single green deck to look the same (being 4 GSZ, 20 silver bullet creatures, and 36 other spells and lands) that pushed them to ban it. I agree, GSZ would be nice to unban, and I don't care much for Dryad Arbor, but I don't see it happening. I'm fine with decks not having 8 virtual copies of Tarmogoyf.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">And Seething Song? "Oh noooooo, my cute little deck isn't good anymore because Storm was a T3 kill in what WotC wanted to be a T4 format, waaaaaaaaahhhhh"

You know you can fix that by just banning the Storm cards right?



Banning cards that push a deck over the top is always going to be preferable to banning the cards that make the entire archtype. As much as I would love to see Grapeshot banned, I don't see it happening.

(at)MrEnglish22

So, nobody here thinks Affinity was properly neutered? Because they banned all the engine pieces and now it's just bad. You don't ban the win conditons, you ban the engine pieces. 
So, nobody here thinks Affinity was properly neutered? Because they banned all the engine pieces and now it's just bad. You don't ban the win conditons, you ban the engine pieces. 


I have a Legacy-legal Affinity deck. I have regularly killed on t3 with it.
The Modern equivalent, with all the manabase stripped back, has fairly poor consistency from my testing.
I run Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas in my legacy version, and with the artifact lands gone, Tezz is very hard to play in this deck, if at all....  Modern Affinity doesn't seem like a very fun deck in the time I've been trying it. 

I feel like you never actually played with these cards. Or against them. Thopter/Meek is by far one of the most powerful things you could do in this format, and isn't very fun to play against.


Sword of the Meek is a combo with Thopter Foundry. Were you aware?

 
Yes I'm aware. They get a ton of small weenies and stomp face, can potentially use Tezzy to kill us etc. 
I am new to Modern, I'll pay that - as a Legacy player I've seen plenty of Sword/Foundry.  In Legacy, it can be pretty hard to beat, but in Legacy they have a far more threatening deck. 
Discard, counter, gravehate, extraction, creature sweepers and artifact removal can all answer it for a turn or more, and to me that makes it a combo that shouldn't be impossible to beat after sideboarding. 
 
Without brainstorm, they have no way to protect their combo pieces from discard. No Humility means their options for negating your threats have less time, there's no Enlightened Tutor, Ponder or Preordain to find their pieces.
Is there a reason why counter, discard, gravehate, creature sweepers or artifact removal wouldn't be good enough?   
Jund having access to cards like Abrupt Decay that just slams combo's like this.

  And I have to be honest... if Thopter/Meek is the strongest thing in Modern, I'm kinda disappointed. 
Golgari Gave troll is good without Dread Return. Not sure what you're talking about.


Okay, I'll try to be clearer.
 
GGT is good.  I don't recall saying otherwise.  
Legacy Dredge can win as early as T1 with a nut-draw and a lot of luck, if you're playing with Flayer of the Hatebound or Flame-Kin Zealot, and Legacy Manaless Dredge can do a similar trick with Flayer, as early as T2 (possibly). I've done both in competitive play.
That out they way.....
GGT is an accelerator that almost any grave-based deck can make use of on T1 by simply being on the draw, but it's still just a dumb beater if you would actually hardcast it.   Dread Return is a win-con in dredge, so I can understand it being banned, but I wonder if modern-dredge would even be a quicker-than-turn-4 deck even with them made legal? 
     


I am going to agree on ggt, is it really that much better than the next best option? 
Modern Affinity was properly "neutered" in my opinion.  It's still tier 1, but it can be beaten.  That's where I'd like to see most decks sitting.  Powerful, but fair.  On that note, Modern Infect can be combo, but only if it runs Livewire Lash.  The infect decks that just run tons of pump spells are more of an aggro deck to me, with T2 capabilities.  Disruption ruins it, as does a well placed piece of removal.  Sacrifice spells handle it the best, from my experience though.
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Well, they just banned Second Sunrise.

And absolutely no one was sad about this.
So, nobody here thinks Affinity was properly neutered? Because they banned all the engine pieces and now it's just bad. You don't ban the win conditons, you ban the engine pieces. 



I personally wish they would ban Desciple and Ravager and unban some (if not all) the artifact lands.

Well, they just banned Second Sunrise.

And absolutely no one was sad about this.



Not Dissapointed, but certaintly surprised they simply banned the entre concept out of the format. Think they would have been better off banning Bauble. 

(at)MrEnglish22

They should still unban Green Sun's Zenith. I'd like to see Modern Maverick be a thing.



They should still unban almost the entire list. Wizards keeps banning things because they become a problem not realizing the problem stemmed from an earlier ban.

For example... If artifact lands were unbanned, Affinity would only care a little bit. Yeah, it'd run them, but it wouldn't be world ending. However, what it would do for the rest of the format would be incredible. Decks would begin mainboarding them for things like Thirst for Knowledge and other cute tricks, Tezzeret might become a thing again, and ultimately mainboard artifact hate could once again be viable.

The format could be healthy. Wizards makes it not so.

As for Tarmogoyf, this is a six year old QQ. QQ harder.
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
So, nobody here thinks Affinity was properly neutered? Because they banned all the engine pieces and now it's just bad. You don't ban the win conditons, you ban the engine pieces. 



I personally wish they would ban Desciple and Ravager and unban some (if not all) the artifact lands.

Well, they just banned Second Sunrise.

And absolutely no one was sad about this.



Not Dissapointed, but certaintly surprised they simply banned the entre concept out of the format. Think they would have been better off banning Bauble. 


No, that's stupid. Ravager was only good because of Disciple and the artifact lands. 

And what's the entire point of the format? For everybody to watch somebody jerk off in public way past the time in round? Sounds great.  
The "point" of the format was to provide a reasonable format where people get punished for making play mistakes (you know, like what happens in Legacy).  Banning Sunrise did nothing to help that.  In fact, it killed the most skill intensive deck in the format, all for the sake of people crying about it.  I'm sorry you don't like to play against Eggs, but it was a very fun deck to actually play.  In the hands of a skilled player, it really doesn't take that long to combo.  The last tournament I played it at, I never went to time with it and was never the last person finished.  And no one scooped to me.
Oh, good grief. Modern Affinity is alive and well, and unbanning the artifact lands, while it wpuld be beautiful in the sense that we'd stop being a functionally a 5c deck, would require everyone, ever, to run 4 stony silence in the board. Reliable t3, frequent t2 tez and platings swinging for 20% more? It's already a deck that, when goldfishing, mulls any hand that won't t4 kill.

As for storm... there were two storm decks, and the t3 culperit was the weaker of the two. Banning electromancer (to slow EE down by a turn) or EE itself would have worked, but they try to avoid banning the newer cards.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
Yeah, Affinity is already getting better.  All of the hate being played for it was really just for Eggs and Tron, so as people cut the hate from their board with the newest banning, Affinity is going to get a huge bump.
Affinity had been hated "accidently" thanks to Eggs and Tron. I'm not sure if you played during Extended when it still existed, but decks could and often did run artifact hate mainboard, or at the very least LOADED the sideboard with it.


In the real world cards are actually only banned when...

A) They are annoying. Not just "wow Tarmogoyf again?!", but as in 46% of the Kobe meta being Affinity, trolling with Shahrazad, Mental Misstep having a manditory representation, Eggs and Top ruining literally every major tournament with timing issues...

B) They are literally degenerate. This includes Academy, Skullclamp, Bargain, Channel+Fireball, Gushbond...


Unbanning artifact lands or almost anything on the Modern ban list would not trigger either of the above criteria. You correctly state above that hands that don't turn 4 kill are mediocre, but how does this differ from its current incarnation? How does this make Burn (more commonly turn 5) or some combo or Zoo any better? And how much, honestly can Affinity really gain by having maybe two more artifacts in play by the end of the game? Keep in mind that Affinity doesn't have guaranteed land drops, already runs Darksteel Citadel, and will most likely continue to run some amount of Inkmoth/Blinkmoth/Glimmervoid.

Artifact lands do not break Affinity. In fact, even in the Block bannings (the only other place they were banned), it wasn't because Affinity was broken. It was because Affinity was easy to play and it was literally Affinity vs World. Affinity had no problems in the old Standard (from what I can recall), had no problems in Extended, and has no problems in Legacy. People are overly and arbitrarily scared of things like Bitterblossom, Stoneforge Mystic, artifact lands, and Cloudpost because "they existed and did things". In fact, the banning I find funniest is Cloudpost. It's almost as if Tron doesn't do the exact same thing...
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO
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