Holy/Bane question...

9 posts / 0 new
Last post
I'm playing in a 3.5 campaign, and am unsure about a possible stacking issue.  My character is a Gestalt Paladin/Scout, with Ehlonna as the deity.  at 6th level I am looking at the Divine Warrior feat from FoE, which trades a turn undead attempt to temporarily give my longbow the Holy enhancement.  This campaign is very dragon heavy, and I was thinking of purchasing some Bane arrows, but I didn't know if the Bane & Holy enhancements would work together for 4d6 damage, or if one would cancel out the other and deliver only 2d6.

I'm still relatively new to this game, so please forgive me if this is one of those "I can't believe you don't know this!!!" questions. 
Well "cancelling each other out" would mean no extra damage so you are looking for "overlapping" which would mean seeing just one 2d6 increase.  Fortunately, neither of those things is the case so you would see the damage increase from both the Holy and the Bane assuming the target qualifies for both sources.

I will note that if your campaign really is "dragon heavy" you may want to just invest in a Bane Weapon instead of one shot items like Bane Arrows.  This is actually true on any campaign where a majority of your opponents (or at least the ones you worry about) fall into a category covered under a Bane type.  Bane "cost" you like a +1 enhancement but it provides you with an added +2 enhancement against that specific target type in addition to dealling a little extra damage.  A +1 Dragon Bane weapon costs what a +2 weapon does but functions as a +3 weapon that deals extra damage when used against a Dragon type creature.

In interesting use of Bane is that it can push a +4 weapon up to +6 against a specific creature type allowing it to overcome DR/epic without actually having an "epic" weapon.
Steve wrote: "In interesting use of Bane is that it can push a +4 weapon up to +6 against a specific creature type allowing it to overcome DR/epic without actually having an "epic" weapon."

That's never come up for us, because we don't play epic levels. But I'm not sure that ruling is correct. I'd have to look into it, but the extra +2 bonus either may or may not be a +6 in terms of epic classification, it may just be "a number on the dice". I'm really too sleepy to be bothered to look it up right now.  
Thanks for the clarification on the Holy/Bane issue.  I'm not sure where the DM got the stats for the bow he gave me, but it's a "swordbow", and can magically transform back & forth between sword & longbow.  That's a cool item, but the enhancement costs are doubled!  On top of that, we're playing in a somewhat low-gold setting, so it's difficult to save up enough to add enhancements to weapons.  To offset that he lets me purchase individual arrows, so I can have a quiver filled with "specialty" arrows, like a d&d version of Hawkeye from the Avengers.  On that subject, are there any arrows you could suggest that would be a good addition to my arsenal?
Thanks for the clarification on the Holy/Bane issue.  I'm not sure where the DM got the stats for the bow he gave me, but it's a "swordbow", and can magically transform back & forth between sword & longbow.  That's a cool item, but the enhancement costs are doubled!


The magically transforming swordbow is in the Magic Item Compendium. It's similar to the Elvencraft longbows in Races of the Wild, which can't become swords, but simply are both bows and (clubs or staves, depending on the size of the bow) whenever you want them. (I.e. you can swing your staff to kill a goblin, shoot his distant buddy, then 5' step and whack someone else with the staff without needing to spend actions switching between forms). It's like a spiked shield though in that you need to enhance both forms separately.

On top of that, we're playing in a somewhat low-gold setting, so it's difficult to save up enough to add enhancements to weapons.  To offset that he lets me purchase individual arrows, so I can have a quiver filled with "specialty" arrows, like a d&d version of Hawkeye from the Avengers.  On that subject, are there any arrows you could suggest that would be a good addition to my arsenal?


+1 Spell Storing arrows are all the versatile arrows you need. Fill them up with your team's wizard's specialty spells during downtime, and you can unload as many spells as you can shoot arrows all at once, possibly even with a Manyshot. (You can also poison the tips if you want.) 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Steve wrote: "In interesting use of Bane is that it can push a +4 weapon up to +6 against a specific creature type allowing it to overcome DR/epic without actually having an "epic" weapon."

That's never come up for us, because we don't play epic levels. But I'm not sure that ruling is correct. I'd have to look into it, but the extra +2 bonus either may or may not be a +6 in terms of epic classification, it may just be "a number on the dice". I'm really too sleepy to be bothered to look it up right now.  

You need to note that when a Bane weapon is used against its specific target its effective enhancment bonus is +2 greater then normal.  This means a +4 Bane weapon is effectively +6 against the target of Bane and a +6 enhancment is the threshold for overcoming DR/epic.  Bane clearly adds to the enhancment in addition to providing a little bit of extra damage.

When it comes to magical ammunition you should remember that it is priced just like any other item although you get 50 one shot items instead of one permanent item.  A +1 dragon bane arrow costs 1/50 what a bow with that same property costs assuming you can but individual arrows.

When it comes to individual proprerties that may be good in arrows I wonder if Seeking isn't something to consider.  It can only go on ranged weapons (which I assume includes ammo) and lets you ignore the miss chance from things like concealment.  Very useful against Blurred or Displaced (and even Invisible provides you know what space you are attacking) targets where you have a flat % chance of missing even if you rolled a natural 20.  Spell Storing could also be interesting depending on what spell you use with it although it appears that can't be used on a ranged weapon (its not on the SRD table).
I'm not sure if that's technically correct regarding epic items, although it is an interesting interpretation.

Simply put, the idea that a specific plus overcomes a specific damage reduction is a 3.0 concept (based on needing a specific plus to overcome weapon immunity in 2e.)

In 3.5 a weapon needs only have a qualifier, like magic or epic, to overcome DR. (This almost eliminates any point of the system even existing, except that aligned weapons and more special materials are involved in DR than previous systems' equivalent.)

Simply put, while a +6 enhancement bonus makes a magic item epic, rolling with the effect of a +6 bonus does not. IE, it is the epic nature of the weapon that overcomes the DR, not the fact that it (can) have a +6 bonus.

That's how I'd rule it, anyway, but whatever works best for your campaign is your call, after all.

It is a +6 bonus that defines "epic" when it comes to overcoming DR.  It is certainly possible to have an "epic" class weapon that does NOT overcome DR/epic because it lacks enough enhancment although other things will increase the cost to the point it is an epic weapon.  It is just the +6 that matters.

This is also what makes the Epic Arcane Archer interesting because it can take a normal arrow and fire it as a +6 arrow allowing it to overcome DR/epic.
 
As a note to getting loaded for serious Dragon slaying, I would endorse the Magebane enchantment. It's essentially the Bane enchantment but works only against arcane spellcasters. As most (if not all) true dragons become arcane spellcasters as they get older, this give a big boost of killing power against many of the tougher dragons you might face.
Sign In to post comments