Worried about the Swordmage

In 4e the Swordmage was one of the most flavorful and best designed classes I ever played. The Swordmage accomplished something no class in D&D history had ever done. It seamlessly blended magic and martial prowess.

While the spell-blade has long been a concept in D&D, it always revolved around either casting spells or striking with your weapon. The Swordmage on the other hand casts spells by attacking with their weapon. There is no either or for the Swordmage. Their weapon attacks are spells an their spells are both unique and flavorful.

Looking at the 5e ranger and paladin makes me worried. Neither the ranger nor the paladin blend their magic and their martial prowess. No, instead they are martial characters with crappy spellcasting slapped on almost as an afterthought. If that is what the designers thinks makes for an interesting hybrid class then I do not want to imagine what the have in store for the poor Swordmage.

My 5e Homebrew Material

The Warblade: A Mythic Fighter

The Hero: A Modular Class

I agree. I never got why rangers in 3e got spells and I like the martial only 4e ranger. Then the swordmage came out and loved it. The Bladesinger was broken but so much fun to play. In both classes, weapon and spell worked together; not separately. 5e seems to be writing themselves into a corner here with swordmages & bladesongs. I have seen lots of posts about perfering martial rangers. Hopefully, WotC is reading them and will make rangers martial and fill the void with the swordmage. You didn't actually say this but I believe weapon and spell blend would work well with the paladin too.  
We haven't seen the full list of paladin and ranger spells yet. I really liked the 3.5 exploration spells the ranger had.

You could imagine spells that are resolved as an attack. You use your spell slot and as part of the attack and it adds additional effects. I don't see any reason not to have at-will spells based on the same principal.
There's no reason why a swordmage can't exist.
I agree. Multiclass Fighter-Mages have always been sort of clunky. Aside from being MAD as hell, a lot of their features work at cross purposes.

Whether or not its called "Swordmage", "Bladesinger" or something else, a Class that is actually built to fully integrate combat prowess and magic is good for D&D IMO. The Gish is a popular archetype, and I just don't think most multiclassing models it that well.
I would very much like a Next Swordmage.
Now, let me ask a question:
Is there any reason why crappy-weapons/can't-hit-anyway regular-type Wizard should be forbidden from using spellblade spells?
Now, let me ask a question:
Is there any reason why crappy-weapons/can't-hit-anyway regular-type Wizard should be forbidden from using spellblade spells?



I was actually hoping that the swordmage was different enough mechanically from the wizard that it didn't use spell slots at all. I could see it using encounter based Mana Points or something, but fire and forget doesn't really play well with the swordmage IMHO.

Also, the wizard is damn well versatile enough. No need for wizards to do everything!
I'd like Swordmage spells to be stuff like "Teleport to a location you can see within 100 ft, if you end adjacent to an enemy you can make an attack against them". Unlike Wizards, spells should not be the primary source of damage, attacks are. Spells are about mobility, and buffing your attacks and defenses to make you better in combat. The swordmage spell list should really be about powers that integrate seamlessly with a playstyle built around melee combat. "Make an attack. Until the start of your next turn, if an enemy attacks an ally within 50 ft. of you, you may teleport adjacent to the enemy and make an opportunity attack against them."

I also agree some spells shouldn't be daily, though some can be. I could see something like a self-hasting power that gives you extra attacks being a once per day thing, whereas routine "teleport and attacK' stuff should definitely be at least once per combat, if not more.

I was actually hoping that the swordmage was different enough mechanically from the wizard that it didn't use spell slots at all. I could see it using encounter based Mana Points or something, but fire and forget doesn't really play well with the swordmage IMHO.

Also, the wizard is damn well versatile enough. No need for wizards to do everything!



I agree about the daily aspect. When I think swordmage, I think something like Brave 10 with uber cool spammable magically empowered attacks. Not some idiot casting rituals in the middle of combat.
 
We haven't seen the non-vancian casters they promised us though. I personally prefer a good multiclassing system over dozens of hybrid classes with feats to give you the flavor that makes a difference between a fighter and  a ranger for instance.

But if no amount of multiclassing can give you a character that is as cool as the 4th edition swordmage or the Tome of Battle swordsage, then we need a class.
1st point: I don´t like the name swordmage. I would rather other like hexblade, duskblade or warblade (Tome of Battle:Book of Nine Swords).

2nd point: Why are we going to look for new names for classes when we can use classic concepts like swashbukler?

3nd point: what if a gamer wish create a multiclass duskblade+swordsage? (Player Handbook II and Tome of Battle). Or (arcane/shadow)hexblade+(martial/ki)samurai, or hexblade+warmage(sorcerer with armour). 

Do you rebember the character options from second chapter of complete mage? When some class abilitied are replaced with others.. I think there is a great potential for gameplay. We don´t need lots of prestige classes.

4th: Can the catrip "mage hand" be used to recover throwing weapons (axes or daggers)?

5th: Could a hexblade learn ki maneuvers insteand spells? 

6th: Do you rebember the psionic soulknife? Could soulknife learn ki maneuvers or hexblade tricks?

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

What about the Magus from Pathfinder?
Khyber is a dark and dangerous place, full of flame and smoke, where ever stranger things lie dormant.
What about the Magus from Pathfinder?




love that class

I'd actually say I want to see a swordmage that at 5th level gets the cast and attack in the same turn deal.

Basically:

half caster

full fighter attack bonus progress and deadly strike growth

5th level gets the ability to cast and attack in the same round though the attack cannot benefit from deadly strike.

at some point gain some kind of blade channeling I can deliver spells with my sword type stuff.

like that's not all of it theres still the subclass type stuff, and some teleportation or shielding type stuff to include.

Also yeah as a side note:  Do not expect different casting styles for specific classes...that idea was killed long ago.  TMost if not all classes will cast with the exact same subsystem (this heavily modified vancian based system), but there will be advanced modules that can be used to change how casting works in your game.  There will be things like ki and channel divinity but that's about it other than that most if not all spell casting will be this modified vancian system.
I would imagine that a swordmage casts spells through his weapon. So to cast a swordmage spell, one would need to be proficient in the weapon and most of the class spells would require someone to hit the target with the weapon.  In the current nomenclature, I imagine that most swordmage spells would be swift spells that require a successful weapon attack to invoke.

Could a wizard have access to those spells?  In theory, yes.  But I would actually prefer that a wizard be required to so some sort of multiclassing or take a Specialty to gain access to them, so as to represent the additional level of knowledge needed to cast spells through a weapon.  Similarly, the swordmage should need to multiclass or Specialize to gain access to wizard spells not otherwise on its spell list.
 
The Swordmage is my favorite 4E class, so yeah, I'd definitely be on board with that.
wow i hope a swordmage gets made into a class oh wait i can just multiclass a fighter/wizard.........
wow i hope a swordmage gets made into a class oh wait i can just multiclass a fighter/wizard.........



.........did you even read any of the posts. Multiclass fighte/wizard does nothing the swordmage does.

The fighter/wizard either casts spells or makes weapon attacks.

The swordmage casts spells by making weapon attacks.
wow i hope a swordmage gets made into a class oh wait i can just multiclass a fighter/wizard.........



.........did you even read any of the posts. Multiclass fighte/wizard does nothing the swordmage does.

The fighter/wizard either casts spells or makes weapon attacks.

The swordmage casts spells by making weapon attacks.




so how many thousands of classes should next include, because in unearthed arcana the cavalier was a seperate class and had nothing to do with the pally so why cant i have the thief acrobat and the cavalier, the ninja ect.

Best you can do at the moment is a druid who constantly uses flameblade.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I imagine hexblades with a parrying dagger or trident dagger in the left hand like a implement, or with a fight style of cloack and dagger.

 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Is there any reason why the class can't be implemented as a crapton of "magic!" maneuvers?
I would imagine that a swordmage casts spells through his weapon. So to cast a swordmage spell, one would need to be proficient in the weapon and most of the class spells would require someone to hit the target with the weapon.  In the current nomenclature, I imagine that most swordmage spells would be swift spells that require a successful weapon attack to invoke.

Could a wizard have access to those spells?  In theory, yes.  But I would actually prefer that a wizard be required to so some sort of multiclassing or take a Specialty to gain access to them, so as to represent the additional level of knowledge needed to cast spells through a weapon.  Similarly, the swordmage should need to multiclass or Specialize to gain access to wizard spells not otherwise on its spell list.
 




see I say there is no need to get that fiddly.  keep it simple. start them off as half caster half melee after a certain point they can make an attack and cast a spell.

no need to make a bunch of swift spells that only trigger if you hit someone then have their own effects it just makes it take time to think on and process.  I'm not saying its a bad idea its just way to convoluted for the DDN system. as always Keep It Simple.  I definitely like the idea of delivering a touch spell via the weapon and that is going to get a little convoluted no matter what, but basically if you start designing a bunch of spells like that you start running into the realm of "What I want to do is hit a dude with a sword and cast fireball over there, but I only have this lame excuse of a fireball that I need to hit with my attack in order to be able to use".  

I'd much rather it be a half caster with the ability to attack and cast in the same round.  With some other cool toys nested in there as well some teleporting some shielding some of the cool I'm an arcane fighter type stuff.  I see no need for creating an entire library of swift spells specifically for him though I can definitely see a few of them in there at least for the lower levels some quick self boost type deals.  bonus to saves bonus to defense maybe some spells for advantage type deals.  those I could see but I don't see the need to make them on hit  just make them swift spells. 

so how many thousands of classes should next include, because in unearthed arcana the cavalier was a seperate class and had nothing to do with the pally so why cant i have the thief acrobat and the cavalier, the ninja ect.




Because the Swordmage actually fills it's own niche. With one hand, he's maintaining his own shielding or possibly throwing out shielding for an ally while with the other he's actually attacking with a sword. He's light-armored, uses magic for mobility and fights using his intellect.

Unlike a Fighter/Mage who just wants more HP, to wear armor and swing a sword for those early levels until he gets enough spells to completely ignore his fighter side.
so how many thousands of classes should next include, because in unearthed arcana the cavalier was a seperate class and had nothing to do with the pally so why cant i have the thief acrobat and the cavalier, the ninja ect.



"Guy who blends magic and physical combat prowess" is not some bizarre, niche thing. Its a very common and popular D&D archetype. The 2e bladesinger, 3.x duskblades and swordsages, the Pathfinder magus, 4e swordmages and hexblades...even back when race was a class, the Elf blended spellcasting and martial prowess.

If multiclassing fighter/mage produces a character who can credibly mix combat and spellcasting in an effective way, thats fine. But in most editions it does not. You end up MAD as hell, and therefore ineffective at either the magic or combat portion of your character. Your features and attributes work at cross purposes to each other--that fighter armor and shield proficiency is wasted on a spellcaster, your strength does nothing for your magic and your int does nothing to help you fight,  a lot of the best spells don't integrate well with being in melee range, etc.

Now, maybe Next has a fix for this, such that you can multiclass fighter/wizard and end up with a fully effective character whose magic enhances his combat ability. But I think it's a tall order, and if the multiclass system can't deliver on it, then there should be a class that does.

Whether that class is called bladesigner, swordmage, magus, hexblade, duskblade...I really don't care. But the system should provide some means of modelling "guy who blends magic and physical combat, and is actually effective instead of being a MAD mess of a character"
I would imagine that a swordmage casts spells through his weapon. So to cast a swordmage spell, one would need to be proficient in the weapon and most of the class spells would require someone to hit the target with the weapon.  In the current nomenclature, I imagine that most swordmage spells would be swift spells that require a successful weapon attack to invoke.

Could a wizard have access to those spells?  In theory, yes.  But I would actually prefer that a wizard be required to so some sort of multiclassing or take a Specialty to gain access to them, so as to represent the additional level of knowledge needed to cast spells through a weapon.  Similarly, the swordmage should need to multiclass or Specialize to gain access to wizard spells not otherwise on its spell list.
 




see I say there is no need to get that fiddly.  keep it simple. start them off as half caster half melee after a certain point they can make an attack and cast a spell.


Except the swordmage is not a gish.  It's not the duskblade or warmage, or all those gish classes from 3e.  It's its own beast.  

Sure we could have a Gish specialty that allows you to sacrifice some extra martial attacks in order to attack and cast a low-level spell simultaneously.  That might even be a very cool specialty.

It wouldn't be a swordmage.
I would imagine that a swordmage casts spells through his weapon. So to cast a swordmage spell, one would need to be proficient in the weapon and most of the class spells would require someone to hit the target with the weapon.  In the current nomenclature, I imagine that most swordmage spells would be swift spells that require a successful weapon attack to invoke.

Could a wizard have access to those spells?  In theory, yes.  But I would actually prefer that a wizard be required to so some sort of multiclassing or take a Specialty to gain access to them, so as to represent the additional level of knowledge needed to cast spells through a weapon.  Similarly, the swordmage should need to multiclass or Specialize to gain access to wizard spells not otherwise on its spell list.
 




see I say there is no need to get that fiddly.  keep it simple. start them off as half caster half melee after a certain point they can make an attack and cast a spell.

no need to make a bunch of swift spells that only trigger if you hit someone then have their own effects it just makes it take time to think on and process.  I'm not saying its a bad idea its just way to convoluted for the DDN system. as always Keep It Simple.  I definitely like the idea of delivering a touch spell via the weapon and that is going to get a little convoluted no matter what, but basically if you start designing a bunch of spells like that you start running into the realm of "What I want to do is hit a dude with a sword and cast fireball over there, but I only have this lame excuse of a fireball that I need to hit with my attack in order to be able to use".  

I'd much rather it be a half caster with the ability to attack and cast in the same round.  With some other cool toys nested in there as well some teleporting some shielding some of the cool I'm an arcane fighter type stuff.  I see no need for creating an entire library of swift spells specifically for him though I can definitely see a few of them in there at least for the lower levels some quick self boost type deals.  bonus to saves bonus to defense maybe some spells for advantage type deals.  those I could see but I don't see the need to make them on hit  just make them swift spells. 



There's two different major archetypes to consider.
One is the generic fighter / generic mage multiclass mashup. That seems like what you're describing. He can swing a sword or he can cast a fireball, but those things are just disconnected abilities on the same character. That is a legit archetype to consider, though it might be served fine by a solid multiclassing system.

The other is a character who fights using weapon and magic together in concert. Such a character would use spells to:
1) enable his ability to strike with a weapon: self buffs, movement powers, etc. This can potentially include things like forced movement on enemies to drag them into his reach.
2) further harm or disable his enemies when he strikes with a weapon. This wouldn't be shooting a fireball off at some other part of the combat, but typically damage or debuffs to the target of his attack. This would play in a lot of ways like Fighter manuevers, but should be magically-themed in their effects, and probably should have usage limits and matching power levels appropriate to their magical nature.

A gish of this sort is best done as its own class, with features and spells that suits its nature. 
Is there any reason why the class can't be implemented as a crapton of "magic!" maneuvers?

The current fighter could work...


Swordmage:  To use magical manuvers, you must have 1 hand free.  You can use Intelligence in place of dexterity for finess weapons.

Death Dealer:
Elemental Blade: Spend an expertise die to enchant your blade.  It deals 1d6 extra damage of either frost, lighting, or fire.  This last until you change it or take a short rest.

Superior Defense:
Force Shield:  As a reaction to you or a creature with 20' of you getting hit, you can spend an expertise die to reduce the damage by half.

Unerring Attack:
Tele-a-slash:  As an action, you can spend a expertise die to teleport 25' and make a melee attack.  Roll the die, and if you teleported less then 5'*roll, then you have advantage.  (if you teleported 15 feet, you need a 4 or higher).

Unstoppable:
Diminish Element: As a reaction you can spend an expertise die to reduce the damage of any fire, frost, or lightning attack by half.  This applies to the effect itself, and thus will protect each creature in a fireballs burst.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The current fighter could work...

I dunno, Mello.
This is starting to wander into "nice things", which, as we all know, fighters can't have.

I would not get to attached to the swordmage name and it was in a spat book as well and it is a very old concept in D&D so some sort of gish type character makes sense.

 Even D&DN got a peek at a gish with the sorcerer a while ago. It leant more towards the Elf side of things than a Swordmage/Duskblade/Magus which are all really variations on the same concept.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I would imagine that a swordmage casts spells through his weapon. So to cast a swordmage spell, one would need to be proficient in the weapon and most of the class spells would require someone to hit the target with the weapon.  In the current nomenclature, I imagine that most swordmage spells would be swift spells that require a successful weapon attack to invoke.

Could a wizard have access to those spells?  In theory, yes.  But I would actually prefer that a wizard be required to so some sort of multiclassing or take a Specialty to gain access to them, so as to represent the additional level of knowledge needed to cast spells through a weapon.  Similarly, the swordmage should need to multiclass or Specialize to gain access to wizard spells not otherwise on its spell list.
 




see I say there is no need to get that fiddly.  keep it simple. start them off as half caster half melee after a certain point they can make an attack and cast a spell.

no need to make a bunch of swift spells that only trigger if you hit someone then have their own effects it just makes it take time to think on and process.  I'm not saying its a bad idea its just way to convoluted for the DDN system. as always Keep It Simple.  I definitely like the idea of delivering a touch spell via the weapon and that is going to get a little convoluted no matter what, but basically if you start designing a bunch of spells like that you start running into the realm of "What I want to do is hit a dude with a sword and cast fireball over there, but I only have this lame excuse of a fireball that I need to hit with my attack in order to be able to use".  

I'd much rather it be a half caster with the ability to attack and cast in the same round.  With some other cool toys nested in there as well some teleporting some shielding some of the cool I'm an arcane fighter type stuff.  I see no need for creating an entire library of swift spells specifically for him though I can definitely see a few of them in there at least for the lower levels some quick self boost type deals.  bonus to saves bonus to defense maybe some spells for advantage type deals.  those I could see but I don't see the need to make them on hit  just make them swift spells. 



There's two different major archetypes to consider.
One is the generic fighter / generic mage multiclass mashup. That seems like what you're describing. He can swing a sword or he can cast a fireball, but those things are just disconnected abilities on the same character. That is a legit archetype to consider, though it might be served fine by a solid multiclassing system.

The other is a character who fights using weapon and magic together in concert. Such a character would use spells to:
1) enable his ability to strike with a weapon: self buffs, movement powers, etc. This can potentially include things like forced movement on enemies to drag them into his reach.
2) further harm or disable his enemies when he strikes with a weapon. This wouldn't be shooting a fireball off at some other part of the combat, but typically damage or debuffs to the target of his attack. This would play in a lot of ways like Fighter manuevers, but should be magically-themed in their effects, and probably should have usage limits and matching power levels appropriate to their magical nature.

A gish of this sort is best done as its own class, with features and spells that suits its nature. 




yeah I say the same thing...basically no multiattack for this guy he gets his own feature where he can make an attack(that can't benefit from deadly strike), and can cast a spell in the same round.  That individual feature alone says...buil it its own class.  I just say it doesn't need a set of different spells from the wizard.  I say systematically that presents an issue mainly a bunch of depowered spells that are a sorry excuse for what I actually want to be doing.  I want a guy that casts wizard spells and uses a sword, and is specially powered to do this excelently.  Sure he can't climb to the magical hights the wizard does but that's because he can beat the crap out of things with a sword better than a wizard ever could.

I definitely want a swordmage class but I don't want it to have a bunch of half powered BS spells that require me to hit to go off I want the wizard's spells.  Sure I don't get past 5th level spells, but I get other powers.

I definitely want some teleportation in there something akin to the monks abundant step would be perfect.

I definitely wouldn't mind seing some of the shielding aspects of the 4e guy both on myself and allies

if anyone should be reaction crazy its the swordmage, one of my main characters was a swordmage and more than half my abilities were reactive in some way.  I'd love for him to just as a reaction block damage/increase ac/ hand disadvantage out(not sure which one) for the aegis of shielding type guy.  Maybe some reactive teleport and attack abilities to really get down that aegis of assult type guy.

I definitely like the idea of some sword mage specific spells some swifts for a few things in the first level spells area is cool some reactive spells only he gets are cool.  However if I am playing a sword mage this is what I want to do in main concept: attack a guy with a sword and cast fireball in the same turn.  It's just an example the spell can be changed out for another but what I really wanna be able to do is attack and cast a full on fireball in the same turn.

Like I said there is definitely enough to this concept to have its own class, but for spells I want to be able to hit a guy and cast a spell in the same turn.  Seriously look at the magus from pathfinder it to me is the best embodiment of a swordmage from any source.  I definitely like some of the aspects the 4e swordmage brings to the concept but I still have to give it to the magus for fulfilling what it is I actually want to do with a guy that defeats people in battle with sword and spell.

Oh yeah swordmage in no armor with a hand free gets into mod to AC that just seems like a good call overall. 
I would imagine that a swordmage casts spells through his weapon. So to cast a swordmage spell, one would need to be proficient in the weapon and most of the class spells would require someone to hit the target with the weapon.  In the current nomenclature, I imagine that most swordmage spells would be swift spells that require a successful weapon attack to invoke.

Could a wizard have access to those spells?  In theory, yes.  But I would actually prefer that a wizard be required to so some sort of multiclassing or take a Specialty to gain access to them, so as to represent the additional level of knowledge needed to cast spells through a weapon.  Similarly, the swordmage should need to multiclass or Specialize to gain access to wizard spells not otherwise on its spell list.
 




see I say there is no need to get that fiddly.  keep it simple. start them off as half caster half melee after a certain point they can make an attack and cast a spell.

no need to make a bunch of swift spells that only trigger if you hit someone then have their own effects it just makes it take time to think on and process.  I'm not saying its a bad idea its just way to convoluted for the DDN system. as always Keep It Simple.  I definitely like the idea of delivering a touch spell via the weapon and that is going to get a little convoluted no matter what, but basically if you start designing a bunch of spells like that you start running into the realm of "What I want to do is hit a dude with a sword and cast fireball over there, but I only have this lame excuse of a fireball that I need to hit with my attack in order to be able to use".  

I'd much rather it be a half caster with the ability to attack and cast in the same round.  With some other cool toys nested in there as well some teleporting some shielding some of the cool I'm an arcane fighter type stuff.  I see no need for creating an entire library of swift spells specifically for him though I can definitely see a few of them in there at least for the lower levels some quick self boost type deals.  bonus to saves bonus to defense maybe some spells for advantage type deals.  those I could see but I don't see the need to make them on hit  just make them swift spells. 



There's two different major archetypes to consider.
One is the generic fighter / generic mage multiclass mashup. That seems like what you're describing. He can swing a sword or he can cast a fireball, but those things are just disconnected abilities on the same character. That is a legit archetype to consider, though it might be served fine by a solid multiclassing system.

The other is a character who fights using weapon and magic together in concert. Such a character would use spells to:
1) enable his ability to strike with a weapon: self buffs, movement powers, etc. This can potentially include things like forced movement on enemies to drag them into his reach.
2) further harm or disable his enemies when he strikes with a weapon. This wouldn't be shooting a fireball off at some other part of the combat, but typically damage or debuffs to the target of his attack. This would play in a lot of ways like Fighter manuevers, but should be magically-themed in their effects, and probably should have usage limits and matching power levels appropriate to their magical nature.

A gish of this sort is best done as its own class, with features and spells that suits its nature. 




yeah I say the same thing...basically no multiattack for this guy he gets his own feature where he can make an attack(that can't benefit from deadly strike), and can cast a spell in the same round.  That individual feature alone says...buil it its own class.  I just say it doesn't need a set of different spells from the wizard.  I say systematically that presents an issue mainly a bunch of depowered spells that are a sorry excuse for what I actually want to be doing.  I want a guy that casts wizard spells and uses a sword, and is specially powered to do this excelently.  Sure he can't climb to the magical hights the wizard does but that's because he can beat the crap out of things with a sword better than a wizard ever could.

I definitely want a swordmage class but I don't want it to have a bunch of half powered BS spells that require me to hit to go off I want the wizard's spells.  Sure I don't get past 5th level spells, but I get other powers.

I definitely want some teleportation in there something akin to the monks abundant step would be perfect.

I definitely wouldn't mind seing some of the shielding aspects of the 4e guy both on myself and allies

if anyone should be reaction crazy its the swordmage, one of my main characters was a swordmage and more than half my abilities were reactive in some way.  I'd love for him to just as a reaction block damage/increase ac/ hand disadvantage out(not sure which one) for the aegis of shielding type guy.  Maybe some reactive teleport and attack abilities to really get down that aegis of assult type guy.

I definitely like the idea of some sword mage specific spells some swifts for a few things in the first level spells area is cool some reactive spells only he gets are cool.  However if I am playing a sword mage this is what I want to do in main concept: attack a guy with a sword and cast fireball in the same turn.  It's just an example the spell can be changed out for another but what I really wanna be able to do is attack and cast a full on fireball in the same turn.

Like I said there is definitely enough to this concept to have its own class, but for spells I want to be able to hit a guy and cast a spell in the same turn.  Seriously look at the magus from pathfinder it to me is the best embodiment of a swordmage from any source.  I definitely like some of the aspects the 4e swordmage brings to the concept but I still have to give it to the magus for fulfilling what it is I actually want to do with a guy that defeats people in battle with sword and spell.

Oh yeah swordmage in no armor with a hand free gets into mod to AC that just seems like a good call overall. 



What you describe sounds mostly like a 10th level wizard/10th level fighter. Perhaps you took the "combat caster" theme which can give some extra features here and there. You cast wizard spells up to 5th level spells, you deal decent damage with weapons, you have a decent melee attack bonus, and you have a number of wizard buff spells to help increase your potency.

Still not a swordmage though.
Reviewing the swordmage powers, it seems to me that the four signature categories of swordmage powers are:

Teleportation: The swordmage cuts holes in reality that allow him and/or his allies to make short hops through space. The swordmage can also teleport enemies in limited capcity (often as a reaction to prevent the enemy from attacking a friend)

Aura: The swordmage imbues his weapon with magical auras that allows him to do typed damage and/or inflict conditions (think the shillelagh spell on steroids)

Weapliment: The swordmage casts traditional spells through his weapon (combo-weapon attack and spellcasting)

Force Magic: The swordmage can generate shields of force to protect himself and his allies, deflect enemy attacks, push enemies around, slow them and immobilize them.

There are also some generic buffs and the like, but I don't think those are particularly identifiable as swordmage-specific abilities.

I think it's a bit "out there" for a fighter build.  

As a wizard tradition, you'd need to grant armor and weapon proficiency and generate a buttload of swift spells to be cast through a weapon.
I would not get to attached to the swordmage name and it was in a spat book as well and it is a very old concept in D&D so some sort of gish type character makes sense.

 Even D&DN got a peek at a gish with the sorcerer a while ago. It leant more towards the Elf side of things than a Swordmage/Duskblade/Magus which are all really variations on the same concept.


Near as I can tell, this is the idea (or close):
dragonquest.wikia.com/wiki/Kiefer

Reviewing the swordmage powers, it seems to me that the four signature categories of swordmage powers are:

Teleportation: The swordmage cuts holes in reality that allow him and/or his allies to make short hops through space. The swordmage can also teleport enemies in limited capcity (often as a reaction to prevent the enemy from attacking a friend)

Aura: The swordmage imbues his weapon with magical auras that allows him to do typed damage and/or inflict conditions (think the shillelagh spell on steroids)

Weapliment: The swordmage casts traditional spells through his weapon (combo-weapon attack and spellcasting)

Force Magic: The swordmage can generate shields of force to protect himself and his allies, deflect enemy attacks, push enemies around, slow them and immobilize them.

There are also some generic buffs and the like, but I don't think those are particularly identifiable as swordmage-specific abilities.

I think it's a bit "out there" for a fighter build.  

As a wizard tradition, you'd need to grant armor and weapon proficiency and generate a buttload of swift spells to be cast through a weapon.




yeah other than adding more capability than listed here and really making it fill that gish role its supposed to be filling (yeah its supposed to fill that niche) I'm not sure what my rough ideas missed.

definitely want some teleportation as a class feature and from spell usage class feature for self transport spells to transport self or others

definitely want some shielding type stuff I like the int mod to ac while unarmored and having a hand free to represent your own shielding, and would definitely be down for a class feature or reactionary spell that allowed for shielding others.

definitely want casting and attacking in the same turn though I see no reason for making this with swift spells when it can be a level 5 ability to be able to attack and cast in the same turn and means we can make it a lot stronger than swift spells would be.  Also this kinda runs into the you guys see a good idea then try to use it for frickin everything problem.

Definitely want some channle power into the blade abilities, whether it be a class feature or channeling touch spells through the blade or both. This could in fact be something they do instead of deadly strike to get them up off of that train.  Make it a class feature they attain around the 5th level mark where they can start getting typed damage from their weapon attacks possibly restrict it to bonus d6's, with the d8 bump after 11th level (or have it start at that d8 and jump to d10).  That way you can justify why you can't do this and cast a spell in the same turn (your selecting to channel the arcane energy into the weapon or into a spell), and delivering touch spells with sword attacks just seems like a perfect way to cover the hit them with status effects type of situation.  there definitely needs to be some bonus to delivering the touch spell with the blade...OH NO it can be nestled in with the level 5 ability if you hit them with the attack they have disadvantage on any saves the spell would incur.  so if you hit a guy then cast fireball in such a way that it would hit him he has disad on the save, you hit him then cast hold person he has disad on that save.

I like it on a d8 or d10 hit die

I like it having the full option of armor up to heavy with the ability to go no armor with the int mod as a bonus so long as they have a hand free.

like I said I'm not sure what the problem here is it fulfills the archetype of spellcaster with a sword...though I would be a bit more inclined to not restrict it to just swords.

I also definitely think this is all quite doable within the 5e framework.  so I'm not to worried about the swordmage concept because I think it will definitely get covered at some point...though I wouldn't be too sure of it in the first books.  This concept is pretty much always covered in a splat. 
Something to consider that the Magus class did was give a daily "arcane pool" similar to ki pool for monks and rages for barbarians. This arcane pool was spent to enchant their weapon with specific effects. IMO, this is the type of feature that could be unique to the martial/arcane hybrid class (regardless what it is eventually called). One variation I'd love to see (that wasn't done for the Magus yet) is a true defensive-oriented version, where the class is able to imbue their armor/shield, and/or have more defensive-natured features for those looking to build more of a "tank"-like concept.

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Reviewing the swordmage powers, it seems to me that the four signature categories of swordmage powers are:

Teleportation: The swordmage cuts holes in reality that allow him and/or his allies to make short hops through space. The swordmage can also teleport enemies in limited capcity (often as a reaction to prevent the enemy from attacking a friend)

Aura: The swordmage imbues his weapon with magical auras that allows him to do typed damage and/or inflict conditions (think the shillelagh spell on steroids)

Weapliment: The swordmage casts traditional spells through his weapon (combo-weapon attack and spellcasting)

Force Magic: The swordmage can generate shields of force to protect himself and his allies, deflect enemy attacks, push enemies around, slow them and immobilize them.

There are also some generic buffs and the like, but I don't think those are particularly identifiable as swordmage-specific abilities.

I think it's a bit "out there" for a fighter build.  

As a wizard tradition, you'd need to grant armor and weapon proficiency and generate a buttload of swift spells to be cast through a weapon.




yeah other than adding more capability than listed here and really making it fill that gish role its supposed to be filling (yeah its supposed to fill that niche) I'm not sure what my rough ideas missed.


Let me be absolutely clear: At no point did I tell you that your ideas missed.  Your ideas may be perfectly fine.

I also think a swordmage can be built in the 5e framework.  I do very much see him as a monk-like class, as opposed to a more broad fighter or wizard class.  

Make it a class feature they attain around the 5th level mark where they can start getting typed damage from their weapon attacks


I don't see why a swordmage couldn't at first level get to add the "force" damage type to their weapons at will.  I don't think that's particularly unbalanced and the force damage type seems to really be the swordmage's signature.  At hgher levels, he can opt for more damage types.

Give him some minor magical abilities for the first few levels: dim door as move, the ability to dim door an ally as an action (or even a reaction), some scaling telekinetic/shield powers.

Then give the swordmage a list of spells he casts through his weapon.  His casting does not provoke opportunity actions, and affects the target for more than one round, as if he were hit by the full wizard version of the spell, and he gets to add his weapon die as damage if the target fails his save.

The spell list would be:
FIRST: Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Color Spray, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Sleep, Thunderwave
SECOND: Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Web
THIRD: Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud
FOURTH: Blight, Confusion, Ice Storm, Polymorph
FIFTH: Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster

Then give the swordmage a list of spells he casts through his weapon.  His casting does not provoke opportunity actions, and affects the target for more than one round, as if he were hit by the full wizard version of the spell, and he gets to add his weapon die as damage if the target fails his save.

The spell list would be:
FIRST: Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Color Spray, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Sleep, Thunderwave
SECOND: Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Web
THIRD: Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud
FOURTH: Blight, Confusion, Ice Storm, Polymorph
FIFTH: Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster



See, this is precisely the kind of things I do not want for the swordmage. That type of thing could work for a half caster/half wizard type character, but I would rather the swordmage not be a gimped wizard with some martial combat ability.

We have seen what they are doing with the poor paladin and ranger as they are turned into fighters with 1/2 casting thrown on.

I personally don't see the swordmage learning wizard spells at all. They learn magic differently, they learn different magic.


Then give the swordmage a list of spells he casts through his weapon.  His casting does not provoke opportunity actions, and affects the target for more than one round, as if he were hit by the full wizard version of the spell, and he gets to add his weapon die as damage if the target fails his save.

The spell list would be:
FIRST: Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Color Spray, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Sleep, Thunderwave
SECOND: Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Web
THIRD: Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud
FOURTH: Blight, Confusion, Ice Storm, Polymorph
FIFTH: Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster



See, this is precisely the kind of things I do not want for the swordmage. That type of thing could work for a half caster/half wizard type character, but I would rather the swordmage not be a gimped wizard with some martial combat ability.

We have seen what they are doing with the poor paladin and ranger as they are turned into fighters with 1/2 casting thrown on.

I personally don't see the swordmage learning wizard spells at all. They learn magic differently, they learn different magic.




the ranger and pally have always had spell access, maybe not in 4th but i read a bit of that and saw it wasnt made for me.

They seem committed to the idea of a dedicated gish class, as seen by the attempt to force the sorcerer into that role. 

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Everyone in this thread is aware that they ARE making a swordmage/fighter-mage/gish class for 5e, right? And that it'll be based (perhaps loosely) off the draconic sorcerer from the playtest a while back?

That guy was pretty cool - d8 hit points, good armor and weapons, spellpoint-based spells, and a handful of unique spells that spoke to his gishiness. For example, he had a level 1 spell that made his next melee attack do +2d6 damage (which was impressive at that point), so you could "charge up" before battle started and then smack a guy hard.  Plus stuff like dragon-breath to toast a bunch of minions.
Everyone in this thread is aware that they ARE making a swordmage/fighter-mage/gish class for 5e, right? And that it'll be based (perhaps loosely) off the draconic sorcerer from the playtest a while back?

That guy was pretty cool - d8 hit points, good armor and weapons, spellpoint-based spells, and a handful of unique spells that spoke to his gishiness. For example, he had a level 1 spell that made his next melee attack do +2d6 damage (which was impressive at that point), so you could "charge up" before battle started and then smack a guy hard.  Plus stuff like dragon-breath to toast a bunch of minions.



While the dragon-srocerer was certainly better than the mess we have in the 5e paladin or ranger, it still failed to uniquely combine spellcasting and magic together.

IIRC it was better off blasting away with burning hands and fireball than it ever was mixing it up in melee. It also had to wear armor to have a halfway decent AC.

Sure the class works for the traditional caster/fighter gish, but the beauty of the swordmage was that it didn't ever cast traditional spells.

When I think of swordmage spells I think of dimensional transposition, aegis of shielding/assualt, swordburst, booming blade, greenflame blade, any number of spells where you throw your sword (especially the ones where the sword sticks into the target and blows up), etc.

These are spells that aren't just afterthoughts to a sword swing. These are spells that turn your melee attack into a whole different beast. They radically change what you actually do in combat so that you play differently from both the fighter and the wizard.

The 5e sorcerer had the same problem that has plagued D&D gishes for ages. It plays like either a wizard or a fighter and not like something unique.