So Do You Think You Could Design a Better Game Than Mearls?



Everyone here seems to think they are a better game designer than Mearls and Co. I do not think I am for example but I think I can get something closer to what my group prefers than what D&DN is turning out to be. Designing your own RPG is going to be a huge amount of work so I would borrow idea I thought were done well in other game systems. I would also want to be able to use material from other game systems such as the 2nd ed Encyclopedia Magica and get the numbers close enough where one can use Pathfinder and 4th ed monsters and maybe just tweaking the ACs and hit points. Close enough is good enough- it doesn't have to be perfect.


As to the balance brigade you will never get it right. A meteor swarm for example might deal a bucket load of damage but whoever gets clobbered by it may have a ring of fire protection or a frostbrand sword. Direct damage spells were never broken in 3.5 ed but one would what to tone down the save or suck from that edition.


Anyway I would focus on the major problems and advantages of the editions.

Pros
1st Ed: Simple
2nd ed Feel, multiple play styles supported
3rd ed: d20 mechanics
4th ed: Balance


Cons
1st Ed: Mechanics
2nd Ed: Counter intuitive mechanics
3rd Ed: Balance/CodZilla
4th: Missed the classic feel.


Try not to get to upset about the pro and con list above, I prefer to look at the larger picture than obsess over what version had the best fighter or whatever. The goal would be to design a modern version of D&D that may not appeal to everyone but hopefully make it appeal to enough people. You will not get everyone on board and the hard core grognards and edition warriors you will not get regardless so one basically ignores them.


d20 Mechanics seem popular enough, retroclones are using them and whatever problems 3rd and 4th had I think the basic d20 was a good one. That may or may not include feats but more the roll d20 and roll high. One also wants something a bit easier than 3rd and 4th ed skills. Personally I would yoink the Pathfinder skill list, throw out class skills, and yoink a modified version of Myth and Magics skill system.


Balance. Put simply I would ignore the balance brigade and go for feel over mechanics. This does not mean I would want a return of Codzilla but more like the tier 3 classes of 3.5 would be my goal post. The 3.5 era spellcasters would get hit hard with the nerf stick. No more natural spell, broken spells would be gone or rewritten, and classics like fireball and magic missile would return to the classic versions of them. They were not broken in 3rd ed due to hit point inflation and other changes made from 2nd ed. The numbers would also be overhauled with numbers closer to 2nd ed than 3rd and 4th with attack numbers between classes like rogues and warriors of course being narrowed. Probably just recycle the numbers form SWSE/3.5 here. Saving throws would be fixed at DC 20 and 2nd ed style save progressions would be used. High level PCs would only have a 5-15% chance or so of flunking a save. That would also be mitigated via feats/ or powers that would allow rerolls as well similar to Star Wars Saga and 4th eds reroll mechanics. If one gets nailed by Finger of Death and you die oh well that is what raise dead is for.


Modules and 4th ed. So far 4th ed has more or less being thrown under the bus. And then reversed over. Since my version of D&DN is more or less 3.5 era d20 based it is not hard to use 4th ed ideas in it. Hell I would be using 4th eds action resolution (minor/move/standard) and reaction mechanics would be rare. The races would have floating attributes similar to essentials, and some mechanics would be optional. Elven accuracy for example could be the AD&D +1 to hit with swords/bows or the 4th ed racial power. Take your pick I do not care. My fighter would resemble a SWSE soldier with 4 skills and talent, feat, talent, feat type progression. Rogues and Warlords would have something similar with inspirational and tactical talent trees used- think noble and officer talents from SWSE. Powers would also be present and they would be unlocked with feats or talents. I won't lie and claim I could match 4th eds system but you would have a list you can pick from. If nothing else it is a gesture of good faith and one can always add more later like the SWSE splats.


Other classes of course could access them so a D&DN fighter using MC dabbler feats similar to 4th ed could pick up magical powers so a high level fighter dabbling in arcane powers might be able to zap a wizard with lightning bolt flying out of his sword. A mundane fighter would have access to vorpal strikes, be able to lop of limbs. An ultra high level one may be touched by the gods and be able to jump to the moon or split a mountain although one may have to use something similar to destiny points and the force unleashed feat in SWSE to do things like that. Things like that would be optional though so old school DMs can say no if they like. Mundane martial types would also have options letting them interfere with spell casters as well so a level 20 wizards vs a level 20 fighter the wizard may have trouble resolving spells.

 So thats more or less it. d20 based game using elements from all editions of D&D. I would not bother trying to appeal to everyone, you would have your warlord and dragonborn by now, and class varients can always come later. Balance would be tier 3 3.5 classes mixed with parts of 2nd ed and it would be up to the DM to sort out the details based on what type of game they are planning on running. Saving throws would be higher than what they were in 3.5, broken spells like 3.0 haste, timestop, and polymorph in general would not exist and I would aso use D&DN concentration mechanic.

 All sorts of badwrongfun though. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

If I had someone paying me to do it? Sure. 
its funny, if everyone thats a critic of dnd next could design a good rpg. the market would be flooded but all people can really do is clone an exisisting edition or clone their own version of a mechanic and cant make their own origional material that would be better.
Im working on it now.

The simple answer yes, with right resources.

You should take a look at this guy's attempt to balancing 3.x, it's an interresting read, you might get ideas
Feats
Combat
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
its funny, if everyone thats a critic of dnd next could design a good rpg. the market would be flooded but all people can really do is clone an exisisting edition or clone their own version of a mechanic and cant make their own origional material that would be better.



 It has kind of started with the various retroclones. Most RPGs that are new are going to fail based on brand identity regardless of how good they are.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

its funny, if everyone thats a critic of dnd next could design a good rpg. the market would be flooded but all people can really do is clone an exisisting edition or clone their own version of a mechanic and cant make their own origional material that would be better.



Its funny, many that are a critic of dnd next have designed good RPGs. The market is flooded and none of them are just clones of existing editions or clones of their own version of a mechanic and the material is original.

Simply take a look at www.drivethrurpg.com and count the number of systems. The market is flooded to the point that only a game with some brand name clout can even make a decent profit. Which is why this whole 5E thing is bound to fail. Even if they get all the fans of every edition as well as pathfinder and new players they can still fall short enough that Hasbro will have them shelve D&D for years.

That's what most people don't understand. If you are getting a profit for your hobby you are doing better than most...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
its funny, if everyone thats a critic of dnd next could design a good rpg. the market would be flooded but all people can really do is clone an exisisting edition or clone their own version of a mechanic and cant make their own origional material that would be better.



Its funny, many that are a critic of dnd next have designed good RPGs. The market is flooded and none of them are just clones of existing editions or clones of their own version of a mechanic and the material is original.

Simply take a look at www.drivethrurpg.com and count the number of systems. The market is flooded to the point that only a game with some brand name clout can even make a decent profit. Which is why this whole 5E thing is bound to fail. Even if they get all the fans of every edition as well as pathfinder and new players they can still fall short enough that Hasbro will have them shelve D&D for years.

That's what most people don't understand. If you are getting a profit for your hobby you are doing better than most...



thats just silly, if money wasnt the point gygax would have made 1st edition free and given paper copies to everyone to use. you can make profit and make good products and enjoy what you do. your doomsaying of 5th is like the cults that predict the world is going to end, it ended a few times this year but things keep rolling on. you will still be doomsaying when 6th and 7th come out, because even if 5th fails and they mothball the game hasbro would sell a dead franchise in a second and then someone else would make it.
I'm not sure if I could.

Rob Heinsoo and Jonathon Tweet can though.

So can Sage Latorra and Adam Koebel.

So can Fred Hicks and Rob Donohue.

So can Chris Birch and Sarah Newton.

So can Simon Washbourne.

So can Chris Rutkowsky.

Thing is, I don't think Mearls is really a DESIGN guy. His core strengths seem to be marketing and development.

That said, I am workign on something. If I ever finish it, I'll link it here and you can all rip it to shreds until I cry.
I don't think "make a better game than Mearls" is fair.  I think Mike Mearls could make a great game, if he set out to make a great game that wasn't burdened with "Being D&D as Hard As We Can", as much as any competent person could (and most likley better, as he has a bit more experience).
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Aye, I think that's the problem DnD is burdened with a lot of baggage, the goal should be to make a solid game first then Worry about making sure it's DnD enough.
I'm going to go ahead and point out, AGAIN, that Mike Mearls has the least amount to do with the actual design of the project than ANYONE on the design team. Jeremy Crawford is the actual LEAD of the design team, mike is just the manager. If you are going to insult someone, insult the right person.
My two copper.
I don't think "make a better game than Mearls" is fair.  I think Mike Mearls could make a great game, if he set out to make a great game that wasn't burdened with "Being D&D as Hard As We Can", as much as any competent person could (and most likley better, as he has a bit more experience).



Mike Mearls made Iron Heroes. The game that had the explicit intent of giving martial characters nice things and still managed to have caster supremacy.

Yeah, no. His current constraints with DDN have nothing to do with his lack of capability. 
I don't think "make a better game than Mearls" is fair.  I think Mike Mearls could make a great game, if he set out to make a great game that wasn't burdened with "Being D&D as Hard As We Can", as much as any competent person could (and most likley better, as he has a bit more experience).



When has he ever made anything that wasn't built on someone else's base mechanics?
I think Shazbot has a twin...or an alter-ego
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Aye, I think that's the problem DnD is burdened with a lot of baggage, the goal should be to make a solid game first then Worry about making sure it's DnD enough.



Agreed.
its funny, if everyone thats a critic of dnd next could design a good rpg. the market would be flooded but all people can really do is clone an exisisting edition or clone their own version of a mechanic and cant make their own origional material that would be better.



Its funny, many that are a critic of dnd next have designed good RPGs. The market is flooded and none of them are just clones of existing editions or clones of their own version of a mechanic and the material is original.

Simply take a look at www.drivethrurpg.com and count the number of systems. The market is flooded to the point that only a game with some brand name clout can even make a decent profit. Which is why this whole 5E thing is bound to fail. Even if they get all the fans of every edition as well as pathfinder and new players they can still fall short enough that Hasbro will have them shelve D&D for years.

That's what most people don't understand. If you are getting a profit for your hobby you are doing better than most...



thats just silly, if money wasnt the point gygax would have made 1st edition free and given paper copies to everyone to use. you can make profit and make good products and enjoy what you do. your doomsaying of 5th is like the cults that predict the world is going to end, it ended a few times this year but things keep rolling on. you will still be doomsaying when 6th and 7th come out, because even if 5th fails and they mothball the game hasbro would sell a dead franchise in a second and then someone else would make it.



Uh, no. My predictions are based on previous sales data (around 35-40 million for 3.xE and 4E). Overall market data (if WotC captured the whole market they might just barely make their quota). All which is available in multiple locations on the internet. You can make good products and enjoy what you do, you cannot create a market where there is none, and this market is pretty much common knowledge. Hasbro never sells properties or IP. They simply shelve it and wait for the market to recover enough to renew it. It seems you don't know all this or you wouldn't make the comments that you do...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

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Aye, I think that's the problem DnD is burdened with a lot of baggage, the goal should be to make a solid game first then Worry about making sure it's DnD enough.



Agreed.


I dissagree
There are a lot of good games out there, making one isn't that hard.
Making a good one that FEELS LIKE D&D,  on the other hand, would make the game stand out
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Somebody doesn't have to feel that they are overall better suited for a particular task to feel that they are capable of insight into ways aspects of the task could be done differently. A massive, complex interconnected thing like the design of a fairly complicated TTRPG system isn't just a single d20 check using the "Design D&D" skill that we might as well sit back and let the person with the most ranks in the skill make. It's an enormously complex process with so many moving parts that it isn't at all unlikely that a random person who, on their own, could not "design a better game than Mearls" might have some interesting insight into what sort of things could improve the final product.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.

another thing i think people forget is that he is not the sole designer he is the lead. So he will say i need a druid and assign a team to make one with a basic concept and then he approves or vetoes it. that goes on for every aspect so hes more of a yes this is good or no its not kind of worker.

another thing i think people forget is that he is not the sole designer he is the lead. So he will say i need a druid and assign a team to make one with a basic concept and then he approves or vetoes it. that goes on for every aspect so hes more of a yes this is good or no its not kind of worker.


He's technically the manager. His duties more or less come down to keeping the designers informed, on track, and within the parameters. Jeremy crawford is the one that trully is the design lead, as far as the people who actually design the game go.
My two copper.
its funny, if everyone thats a critic of dnd next could design a good rpg. the market would be flooded but all people can really do is clone an exisisting edition or clone their own version of a mechanic and cant make their own origional material that would be better.





 


Its hard to relate to someone who would want to rewrite everything. But, then Im old and I have seen quite a bit of rules that work well.


I dissagree
There are a lot of good games out there, making one isn't that hard.
Making a good one that FEELS LIKE D&D,  on the other hand, would make the game stand out



"Feels like D&D" is a rhetorical cop out.

What it is exactly that D&D "feels" like has as many different definitions as there are gaming groups.

Some say "save vs. breath weapon" feels like D&D, others say "Fortitude Saves", while others say "Save Ends" is D&D. If D&D Next ever actually gets published, then there will be those that say "Intelligence Saves" are D&D. And that's not even counting houserules.

Do I think I could do a better job?  No.  Does that mean I think Mearls is doing a good enough job that I'm going to pay him for it?  Well...


"Feels like D&D" is a rhetorical cop out.

What it is exactly that D&D "feels" like has as many different definitions as there are gaming groups.

Some say "save vs. breath weapon" feels like D&D, others say "Fortitude Saves", while others say "Save Ends" is D&D. If D&D Next ever actually gets published, then there will be those that say "Intelligence Saves" are D&D. And that's not even counting houserules.




I wouldn't go so far as to call it a cop-out. It's a legit statement that does affect how the game is perceived, but I feel that the "D&D feel" is garnered much more from the fluff and iconic races, monsters, etc. than from actual mechanics.

I have commented in other threads how I was able to give the D&D feel to Call of Cthulhu, Earthdawn, MERP, WoD, and several other game systems simply by implementing some of the more iconic people, places, spell names, monster names, and so on.

Mechanics can change so dramatically from edition to edition. Tying them to the D&D feel isn't the best route to take.
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft

I dissagree
There are a lot of good games out there, making one isn't that hard.
Making a good one that FEELS LIKE D&D,  on the other hand, would make the game stand out



"Feels like D&D" is a rhetorical cop out.

What it is exactly that D&D "feels" like has as many different definitions as there are gaming groups.

Some say "save vs. breath weapon" feels like D&D, others say "Fortitude Saves", while others say "Save Ends" is D&D. If D&D Next ever actually gets published, then there will be those that say "Intelligence Saves" are D&D. And that's not even counting houserules.



The fact that it lacks a clear definition doesn't make it irrelevant as a design goal.

"Being happy", or "loving someone" are things that transcend definitions too, yet We still can tell when someone is happy or in love, and we still thrive for both.
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Could I make a better game than Mearls and Co? Not really. At least, not without using what they've already made.

I could take what we've been given in the packets and with some of my own ideas, and make a game that is better (IMO) than any single packet we've been given. That being said, I don't know if the packets are intended to be considered "complete."
Of course we all "feel" we can design a better game, otherwise why would we post? Sitting next to the computer and playing the arm chair quarterback is simple.

But in reference to 5E, it is whether we will buy it after we had our say and see how things pan out. All I can do is let my voice be heard.
I missed Shazbots alt account rage but if you think myself and mike are bad go to some of the grognard sites and find out what they think about 3rd and 4th ed. Hint take body armor and/or thick skin.

 I like 3rd ed but I like AD&D as well. What one I like more depends on my mood. There is even less of AD&D in D&DN than 4th ed and the classes barely resemble the AD&D classes.  Not claiming AD&D is the be all and end all of D&D either.

 Just saying if you end up with a radically different game or generic fantasy based RPG to me the game has lost that D&D feel. Mechanics do not matter and 3rd ed for example done a reasonable job at changing over from 2nd ed but it borked the power levels with CoDzilla etc.

  Wizard figures also indicate that there are 6 milloin active D&D players (well a few years ago) and 20 million ex D&D players. Most of those ex players are probably AD&D or BECM players and if they pick up a new rule book and it is full of powers, monstrous races, and all sorts of other stuff it may not appeal to them (it might IDK).

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

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I absolutely know that I couldn't make a better game than Mearls and Co., mostly because I'm not a game designer...I'm a shrink (and I have to say, these boards are an endless source of analytical amusement). But then, I also don't slam Mearls and Co.'s design decisions, either. They're the pros, not me. I have my favorite edition. If DDN falls through, it really isn't any sweat off my nose.
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft

I know I could design something better than DDN (I've already got a homebrew system... 45,000+ words of mostly crunch so far... that I've been running for years), but then I'm not limited by the things that Mearls is either and I have the luxary of designing a system for a very specific target audience that I've known for years.

My personal ideas tend towards the notion that, in so far as 4E had design problems, it was more a resulty of them not pushing the modernization of the game far enough as opposed to having pushed too far. I also think people would have dealt with the crunch changes a lot better if more of the fluff had been left alone (particularly the Realms).

its funny, if everyone thats a critic of dnd next could design a good rpg. the market would be flooded but all people can really do is clone an exisisting edition or clone their own version of a mechanic and cant make their own origional material that would be better.



Its funny, many that are a critic of dnd next have designed good RPGs. The market is flooded and none of them are just clones of existing editions or clones of their own version of a mechanic and the material is original.

Simply take a look at www.drivethrurpg.com and count the number of systems. The market is flooded to the point that only a game with some brand name clout can even make a decent profit. Which is why this whole 5E thing is bound to fail. Even if they get all the fans of every edition as well as pathfinder and new players they can still fall short enough that Hasbro will have them shelve D&D for years.

That's what most people don't understand. If you are getting a profit for your hobby you are doing better than most...



thats just silly, if money wasnt the point gygax would have made 1st edition free and given paper copies to everyone to use. you can make profit and make good products and enjoy what you do. your doomsaying of 5th is like the cults that predict the world is going to end, it ended a few times this year but things keep rolling on. you will still be doomsaying when 6th and 7th come out, because even if 5th fails and they mothball the game hasbro would sell a dead franchise in a second and then someone else would make it.



Uh, no. My predictions are based on previous sales data (around 35-40 million for 3.xE and 4E). Overall market data (if WotC captured the whole market they might just barely make their quota). All which is available in multiple locations on the internet. You can make good products and enjoy what you do, you cannot create a market where there is none, and this market is pretty much common knowledge. Hasbro never sells properties or IP. They simply shelve it and wait for the market to recover enough to renew it. It seems you don't know all this or you wouldn't make the comments that you do...Smile



Several points.

1.  Your predictions are wrong.  You fail to account for revenue from novels,  and from video games.  You ignore the fact that should the property regain the momentum it had in 3rd,  which spawned a theatrical movie,  it would show large revenue.  You do not account for minature sales,  or any other marketing product they could pursue with a reinvigorated customer base (Sideshow Replicas models for example).  If WOTC regains the market share they lost during 4th edition,  they can use the momentum to more than clear what Hasbro wants from the property.

2.  If Hasbro doesn't sell properties,  then why did Hasbro sell their entire video game division and all associated properties?

3.  Your earlier point about number of RPG's is irrelevant.  There were a metric ton of them in the 80's too,  but AD&D had the lion's share of the market.  The average person gravitates towards D&D,  only the hardcore go for the micro-RPG's.  Even GURPs failed to make a significant dent in AD&D.  The only time a different property has ever gained major market share was Pathfinder.     

3.  Your earlier point about number of RPG's is irrelevant.  There were a metric ton of them in the 80's too,  but AD&D had the lion's share of the market.  The average person gravitates towards D&D,  only the hardcore go for the micro-RPG's.  Even GURPs failed to make a significant dent in AD&D.  The only time a different property has ever gained major market share was Pathfinder.     


Hmmm. White wolf used to have a big chunk of the market in the 90s if I recall.

Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
I think WW only got up to 30% max though IIRC they never knocked D&D off the number 1 post. WW is essentially dead now as well. D&D was here 1st and it is still here now. Except now they are no longer number 1.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 


3.  Your earlier point about number of RPG's is irrelevant.  There were a metric ton of them in the 80's too,  but AD&D had the lion's share of the market.  The average person gravitates towards D&D,  only the hardcore go for the micro-RPG's.  Even GURPs failed to make a significant dent in AD&D.  The only time a different property has ever gained major market share was Pathfinder.     


Hmmm. White wolf used to have a big chunk of the market in the 90s if I recall.





yeah it was like 3rd or 4th place in the list of rpgs at the time. dnd, gurps, whitewolf, fasa with battletech
I thought it got to 2nd place? Oh well IDK. 36 years being number 1 anyway even with the TSR buyout and 1985.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

 I thought it got to 2nd place? Oh well IDK.




it could have been but the numbers were erratic and not really tracked alot back then.
Still, 30% IS a big chunk
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
TSR themselves did not now how much they sold exactly. The print runs of some of those books are known though.
www.acaeum.com/library/printrun.html

Ebay book prices seem to reflect these figures. Huge print runs= cheap.

 1 million + Keep on the borderlands.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

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