Is "untyped damage" a "type"?

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I just found Diamond Bracers in our game, which states, "Until the end of the encounter, gain resist 10 against a damage type from which you were dealt damage since the end of your last turn."

It's clear how this would work with fire damage and so on.

But could it be used with "untyped" damage, which we often refer to as "normal damage" or "sharp & pointy damage"?  Or to say it differently, is "untyped" a "type"?

Thanks!
 
By definition, something that is untyped has no type, in the same way someone who is unemployed has no job.  The Diamond Bracers cannot affect untyped damage.
By definition, something that is untyped has no type, in the same way someone who is unemployed has no job.  The Diamond Bracers cannot affect untyped damage.



Actually, that's not a good example.  When filling out a form that says "current job" or some such, one would write "unemployed" instead of leaving it blank.  So, based on that example, "unemployed" is actually a type of job.

But yes, I understand your point but am not yet convinced.  :-)
 
The bracers cannot effect untyped damage because it has no type.  You have to have a type for it to work. 
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Is there any item that resists untyped damage only (and has no effect on typed damage)?  Flavor-wise, that would just be slightly thicker armor or something like that.
 
Is there any item that resists untyped damage only (and has no effect on typed damage)?  Flavor-wise, that would just be slightly thicker armor or something like that.
 



I am unfamiliar with it, but it might exist.  Search the compendium.
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The Axe of the Glacial Rift says, "Effect: Until you use this power again, you change the weapon’s damage type to cold or to untyped."

Likewise, the Skeletal Frost Giant's Blade Chage power says, "Effect: Kvaltigar changes the damage type of his weapon attacks to cold or to untyped."

So note that the "damage type" can be "untyped".  So, based on that wording, "untyped" is actually a "type".

I'm going to send this into Customer Service and see what they think...

 
The Axe of the Glacial Rift says, "Effect: Until you use this power again, you change the weapon’s damage type to cold or to untyped."

Likewise, the Skeletal Frost Giant's Blade Chage power says, "Effect: Kvaltigar changes the damage type of his weapon attacks to cold or to untyped."

So note that the "damage type" can be "untyped".  So, based on that wording, "untyped" is actually a "type".

I'm going to send this into Customer Service and see what they think...

 



CS is usually wrong, but good luck.

Here is the entry:
Powers and other effects often deal specific types of damage. For instance, a red dragon’s breath deals fire damage, a scorpion’s sting deals poison damage, a mind flayer’s telepathic blast deals psychic damage, and a wraith’s touch deals necrotic damage.
    If a power doesn’t specify a damage type, the damage has no type. Most weapon attack powers deal damage that has no type. It is simply physical damage. 

So it has no type, so you can't pick it as a type.  Because it has no type.

I know it is really hard to wrap your head around being incorrect, but it does happen.  Rather than be stubborn about it you could just read the entry and realize how it works from that.
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Un- means 'not'.  Un-typed means not typed.  If something is not typed, it has no type.

Just like in Magic: The Gathering, Colorless is not a color.  If something tells you to choose a color, you cannot choose colorless.
In that case, are you saying the wording for "Axe of the Glacial Rift" and "Skeletal Frost Giant's Blade Chage" are in violation of the rules?  Both clearly say that you can set the damage type to untyped.  They do not say that you "un-set the damage type", or "remove the damage type".

Of course I realize that this discussion is pedantic and is another RAW (or at least Powers As Written) versus RAI discussion, but it's interesting anyway since it's not completely consistent.

In that case, are you saying the wording for "Axe of the Glacial Rift" and "Skeletal Frost Giant's Blade Chage" are in violation of the rules?  Both clearly say that you can set the damage type to untyped.  They do not say that you "un-set the damage type", or "remove the damage type".

Of course I realize that this discussion is pedantic and is another RAW (or at least Powers As Written) versus RAI discussion, but it's interesting anyway since it's not completely consistent.




It isn't RAW or RAI problem.  It is a problem of stubbornness  You can change a color to colorless without saying colorless is a color.

Untyped isn't a type.  You can't choose it as a damage type because it isn't a type.
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Your argument isn't consistent.

Let's set up the following battle...

I'm fighting a Skeletal Frost Giant.  On its turn, it first uses its Blade Chage power, which says, "Effect: Kvaltigar changes the damage type of his weapon attacks to cold or to untyped" and it selects untyped (knowing that I have cold resistance).  It then hits me.

It's now my turn.  I'm wearing Diamond Bracers which state, "Until the end of the encounter, gain resist 10 against a damage type from which you were dealt damage since the end of your last turn."

What was the damage type of which I was dealt damage?

It seems to me that the answer is untyped.  If your answer is anything else, then it seems to me that you must think that either the Blade Change power text is wrong.   If not, then please explain how those two pieces of text would not be contradictory.

Again, I understand why untyped is not a type, but that then, to me, that must mean that the Blade Change power is incorrectly written.
 
Your argument isn't consistent.

Let's set up the following battle...

I'm fighting a Skeletal Frost Giant.  On its turn, it first uses its Blade Chage power, which says, "Effect: Kvaltigar changes the damage type of his weapon attacks to cold or to untyped" and it selects untyped (knowing that I have cold resistance).  It then hits me.

It's now my turn.  I'm wearing Diamond Bracers which state, "Until the end of the encounter, gain resist 10 against a damage type from which you were dealt damage since the end of your last turn."

What was the damage type of which I was dealt damage?

It seems to me that the answer is untyped.  If your answer is anything else, then it seems to me that you must think that either the Blade Change power text is wrong.   If not, then please explain how those two pieces of text would not be contradictory.

Again, I understand why untyped is not a type, but that then, to me, that must mean that the Blade Change power is incorrectly written.
 



There was no type, so it has no effect.  Its type isn't untyped, it has no type.

The wording could be clearer, yes, but neither wording is incorrect.

In this instance if the damage incoming wasn't cold, you would get no effect from your bracers.

I am sorry you dislike the answer.

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Rules Compendium 310:

damage type:  A specific type of damage:  acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, or thunder.  Each damage type has a keyword associated with it.  If a power has such a keyword, the power deals that type of damage (the exception is poison, the keyword for which refers to damage, a nondamaging effect, or both).

There is no "untyped" keyword, so untyped is not a damage type.  Case closed.

And Diamond Bracers is written just fine.  If you are dealt untyped damage, you can't use the Bracers because you gain resist 10 against a damage type.  No damage type means they simply have no effect.

And CS is usually right, despite what folks who can't even look up "damage type" think, and if you write them about this they will tell you what I said.  This is hardly a new question; you're probably about gajillionth person to ask this. ;)

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Rules Compendium 310:

damage type:  A specific type of damage:  acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, or thunder.  Each damage type has a keyword associated with it.  If a power has such a keyword, the power deals that type of damage (the exception is poison, the keyword for which refers to damage, a nondamaging effect, or both).

There is no "untyped" keyword, so untyped is not a damage type.  Case closed.

And Diamond Bracers is written just fine.  If you are dealt untyped damage, you can't use the Bracers because you gain resist 10 against a damage type.  No damage type means they simply have no effect.

And CS is usually right, despite what folks who can't even look up "damage type" think, and if you write them about this they will tell you what I said.  This is hardly a new question; you're probably about gajillionth person to ask this. ;)



I was actually referring to the wording for losing damage types on attacks (the Frost Giant in this instance).  The wording is fine and functional, but it could be made clearer.

As far as how helpful CS is... well you would have to check the consolidated answers for that.  When I was new to the forums someone told me CS was unreliable and I didn't believe them.  So I sent the same mildly ambiguous question to CS every other day for 6 days.  I got 3 different responses.  One was correct, however the reasoning behind why it was correct was incorrect.

So yes, don't trust CS. 
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So I sent the same mildly ambiguous question to CS every other day for 6 days.  I got 3 different responses.  One was correct, however the reasoning behind why it was correct was incorrect.

Ask an ambiguous question, get an unreliable answer.  Ask an unambiguous question and you usually don't need anyone else to give you an answer because you'll have answered yourself.

CS answers are worth whatever value you want to place on them, because in the end you're going to play the game the way you want to play it.  But they're right far more often than they're wrong, because 4e is written in such a way that that's not difficult to do.

I question the assertions, truthfulness and motivations of those who claim that CS is wrong more often than they're right.  They're basically saying that those who work for WoTC CS are stupid, uninformed, or both and neither or those things are true.  Disagree with their rulings if you want, but don't slander them.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

So I sent the same mildly ambiguous question to CS every other day for 6 days.  I got 3 different responses.  One was correct, however the reasoning behind why it was correct was incorrect.

Ask an ambiguous question, get an unreliable answer.  Ask an unambiguous question and you usually don't need anyone else to give you an answer because you'll have answered yourself.



More like ask any question for which rules advice might be necessary --and some that shouldn't require it--, get an unreliable answer.



Sorry, a clear question about something that needed clarification in the rules (so an ambiguity I thought I saw in the rules, not in the question).

CS is really unreliable. 
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It's funny that all I have to say in any thread is "ask CS" and immediately certain of the usual suspects SWARM to rip them.  I don't know what that means, but anyway, it's off topic. 

CS would agree with me that untyped is not a damage type.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

It's funny that all I have to say in any thread is "ask CS" and immediately certain of the usual suspects SWARM to rip them.  I don't know what that means, but anyway, it's off topic. 

CS would agree with me that untyped is not a damage type.



Mostly because it is terrible advice.  And the "usual suspects" get annoyed at terrible advice.
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
It's funny that all I have to say in any thread is "ask CS" and immediately certain of the usual suspects SWARM to rip them.  I don't know what that means, but anyway, it's off topic. 

CS would agree with me that untyped is not a damage type.



Mostly because it is terrible advice.  And the "usual suspects" get annoyed at terrible advice.

Well, you're wrong, but don't let that stop you from slandering the folks at Customer Service.  It never stops anyone else, and I would ask you to consider the possibility that CS is right more often than they're wrong and that they are certainly capable of making a correct ruling on this situation.  If you think they can't, I'm sorry you feel that way, but please don't tell lies about them.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

It's funny that all I have to say in any thread is "ask CS" and immediately certain of the usual suspects SWARM to rip them.  I don't know what that means, but anyway, it's off topic. 

CS would agree with me that untyped is not a damage type.



Mostly because it is terrible advice.  And the "usual suspects" get annoyed at terrible advice.

Well, you're wrong, but don't let that stop you from slandering the folks at Customer Service.  It never stops anyone else, and I would ask you to consider the possibility that CS is right more often than they're wrong and that they are certainly capable of making a correct ruling on this situation.  If you think they can't, I'm sorry you feel that way, but please don't tell lies about them.




Will they get this one right?  Maybe.  Its pretty simple, so I'd go with "probably".

That still doesn't mean asking them is a good plan.  You could as an english teacher who has never played the game about 1/3rd of the rules and they would get it right.  Doesn't mean it is a good person to rely on.
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It's funny that all I have to say in any thread is "ask CS" and immediately certain of the usual suspects SWARM to rip them.  I don't know what that means, but anyway, it's off topic. 

CS would agree with me that untyped is not a damage type.



Mostly because it is terrible advice.  And the "usual suspects" get annoyed at terrible advice.

Well, you're wrong, but don't let that stop you from slandering the folks at Customer Service.  It never stops anyone else, and I would ask you to consider the possibility that CS is right more often than they're wrong and that they are certainly capable of making a correct ruling on this situation.  If you think they can't, I'm sorry you feel that way, but please don't tell lies about them.



It's not slander when it's demonstrably correct (and it's not slander, in print it's libel, heck knows what it is on the interwebs though).  CS are routinely wrong about the simplest and clearest rules points in the game.  I've personally had them claim to me that charging costs a move and a standard action.  Just for instance.

And it's fairly easy to get the answer you want from them by asking again in a different way or at a different time of day until you find someone who's persuaded by your rhetoric.  I'm sure Alcestis will be along any minute to tell you what the score is currently up to in the CS game.  These days, though, they do tend to just cop out of the difficult questions with 'ask your DM and/or houserule it'.

They are demonstrably and provably worse at rules than this forum, which is why this forum scorns them, and advises people not to use them.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
It's also important to note that the CS team is mostly made up of remote employees working from home, who have varying experience with D&D/4e, have never met the developers, and who have no resources beyond the compendium and whatever books they personally own to look up and answer your questions.

For every masterful DM who knows every rule like the back of his hand, CS also has someone who has never actually played the game at all or read any of the books. So sure, some of the CS employees are probably right 100% of the time. But others are wrong, and there's no way to control who responds to you, so the result is a team which, as a whole, answers almost entirely at random.

This is neither a lie nor slander (libel, really), it's just the sad truth. I wish they were better, but in order to be better, they'd have to be paid more, trained more, centralized, and have direct access to bother the developers all the damn time. Particularly in the cases of the multiple core 4e devs who no longer work with WotC, that would be difficult, as well as annoying and disruptive.
Well, you're wrong, but don't let that stop you from slandering the folks at Customer Service.


In order for it to be slander, it has to not be true.

they are certainly capable of making a correct ruling on this situation. 

If they do make a correct ruling, it's by complete accident.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
As predicted, Customer Service got the answer "wrong."  Here's what they said:

     This is an excellent question. There is no easy way to answer this question, as there is no specific clarification within the rules that specify whether "untyped" counts as a type of damage. I would recommend speaking with your Dungeon Master and have them make a judgment call that best suits the campaign. 

In my opinion, despite all of my pedantic arguments, is that untyped is not a "damage type", and that the Blade Change power et al should be slightly rephrased with that in mind.

And thus, the 'Customer Service has no idea what they're doing' point of view gains more weight.
And thus, the 'Customer Service has no idea what they're doing' point of view gains more weight.


Drop of water in the ocean...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
As predicted, Customer Service got the answer "wrong." ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />




Not "wrong".  Just wrong.  No quotation marks required, Customer Service were asked a simple question that has a clearly correct answer, and got it wrong.  Like they almost always do.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I would ask you to consider the possibility that CS is right more often than they're wrong

Statistically proven to be false. So.. you should stop telling lies about CS's reliability. K?
Don't hide behind "statistically proven" Alcestis.  People who believe what they want to believe easily dimiss "statistics."  Give the count, that's much harder to handwave away.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Current tally for the CS game:

315 to 12. That is I have asked 327 question to which the answers were known and unambigious (had been explicitly FAQed, etc.). They got 12 right and 315 wrong. So they are right ~4% of the time.
I just found Diamond Bracers in our game, which states, "Until the end of the encounter, gain resist 10 against a damage type from which you were dealt damage since the end of your last turn."

It's clear how this would work with fire damage and so on.

But could it be used with "untyped" damage, which we often refer to as "normal damage" or "sharp & pointy damage"?  Or to say it differently, is "untyped" a "type"?

Thanks!
 



Yes, you can choose Untyped damage. Enjoy!

Feh, I have to explain this don't I? Ok, here we go. 
We have a mirror that reflects shapes, ok? It can reflect any type of shape. -You already know that we are using "shapes" in place of "damage" right? If not, it's nice of your parents to let you wander the web like this.

We have shape types: Square, Circle, Triangle. That ol' mirror can reflect them all.  Now we have a blob. That blob is not any type of shape. Just because it is not a type of shape, that doesn't mean the mirror doesn't reflect it. Now keep up here, this next part is important.

We have two blobs, and they are different shapes. Both are not square, triangle, circle, and not the same shape. So we need a catch-all shape. They are untyped shapes, or as I said, blobs. So untyped damage is the blob of damages because it does not fit a specifically defined kind of damage. It does not make it Not A Type, it is just a shorter way to say it is a type that is not acid, and not cold, and not fire...etc.

For most of you, that is probably enough. But for the rest holding out, we are bringing out that mirror again. The mirror reflects any type of shape. The logic that says the bracers can't do Untyped damage since it is not a type would have to also say the mirror can't reflect the blob since that is not a type. So experiment for yourself. Find your parent's favorite picture/painting (preferably a family portrait that took forever for everyone to hold still long enough to get it right) and draw a blob on it. Then reflect it in a mirror and ask your parents if they can see a blob-shaped shape in the mirror. Go on. We'll wait.

Reasoning by analogy is a good way to be wrong, as you've just demonstrated aptly.

Typed damage is a specifically defined thing in 4e. Untyped is, by definition, not a type of damage. The ten possible types are outlined specifically. There is no amibiguity here by the actual rules, as opposed to any nonsense someone might wish to make up.
I just found Diamond Bracers in our game, which states, "Until the end of the encounter, gain resist 10 against a damage type from which you were dealt damage since the end of your last turn."

It's clear how this would work with fire damage and so on.

But could it be used with "untyped" damage, which we often refer to as "normal damage" or "sharp & pointy damage"?  Or to say it differently, is "untyped" a "type"?

Thanks!
 



Yes, you can choose Untyped damage...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />



No, you can't, because "has no type" is not "a type", just like "bald" is not a hair colour and "not collecting stamps" is not a hobby.

Also, please don't necro threads from half a year ago, especially to give wrong answers that show you didn't read the thread up to that point.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Oh dear, sorry, so sorry. I can see people are writing upset. You weren't actually supposed to show your parents that picture. But no sense coming back here and complaining. As for me, I came out of retirement just to set this thread straight (yeah ok, that was my first post, but I declared retirement before making it so that counts).

Don't matter how old it is if people (could be anyone posting between this and my last post, anyone at all) still don't understand some basic concepts. Poor me; I made my post and went off never to return when a friend brings to my attention that not only did people post,  but both got it wrong, (some people don't suffer fools well, but it's easier when they are so darn cute, shaking that little fist in fury and skipping logic completely). Not that I am calling anyone a fool -just saying, well.. I don't know what actually. I'll just have to get back to you on that.

Here is how this works. People get all miffed, and you know how they make mistakes when that happens. They basically go "Nuh-Uh!". This is usually followed  by, "Uh-Huh!". Then "Nuh-UH!". Then"Uh-HUH!". Then, feeling an unaccustomed wisdom, go, "Nuh-uh-Infinity!" But then I shoot that down with "Infinity-plus-One". I don't think there's anything after that.

And here is how you stay on topic: Someone said that Un = Not,  and therefore UnTyped = Not a type. This is actually as wrong as saying an apt analogy is nonsense and bald and hair color are examples of things in the same class of types. Smart people are following this. Angry people - not so much. This is what it looks like when you do it right:
Untyped, by definition is Not Typed 
People shouldn't just throw the last two letters away if it makes them wrong when they don't.  

Go to your English teacher and ask them the difference between something that is a type, and something that is typed. After you convince them you are from their class, and assure them you were in the room with them earlier that day during the lessons, they can tell you that they are different.

10 kinds of damage in D&D4e have been typed. Slashing damage, blunt damage, hacking damage, etc, have not been classified into types. They were Not Typed. They are Untyped. I have to start breaking this down to preschool level to make it clearer (but we'll start with "nappy-time"). Hacking, slashing, and so forth are still types of damage that have not been Typed by the 4E rules. Ask your friends if they know anyone smart that can confirm this for you (its going to involve complicated things like English, grammar, definitions, -but you'll get there).

Now, before all the angry Nuh-Uhs come rolling back, some people out there can realize that the Not-A-Type-of-Damage fans are therefore saying that slashing and piercing are not types of damage. So what then, they are some type of high-speed deep-rub massage? That should strike you as wrong, (or a bit off, or whatever as long as it strikes you hard, preferably in the middle of declaring is not any kind of damage and hopefully there will be a "Thwacking" sound).

For the bracers not to work the line would have to read something like,
 "Until the end of the encounter, gain resist 10 against a typed damage from which you were dealt damage since the end of your last turn."

In conclusion, this time when I go off never to return my friend will tell me people posted and tried pick apart my post (usually with a method sorely lacking in  logic but not in poor temper), and I will ask if it all basically boils down to, "Nuh-Uh!" then he will tell me, "Yeah." And I will say, "I thought so." 


P.S. Yes, the, "I-get-the-last-word-and-now-am-no-longer-playing-defense!" Muahahaha!
1/10. Bad troll.
If you had any formal training in logic, you'd be aware of the fact that different logical systems are built from different axioms. Exception based design produces very different results. 4e is an exception based design. Things only do what they say they do. 4e is very clear about types. Anything that is not one of those types is untyped. There is no room for invention or "what makes sense" to you. And that is all your argument amounts to. "This doesn't make sense to me, so I am going to post some nonsense and dress it up in insulting language."
So both wrong and being a jerk about it. 

Why are you here?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Guys, seriously, don't feed him. His analogies are so horribly chosen, there's no need to bother. Really..
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