Charm and dominate

People seem to be making a big deal that druid has charm and dominate butthese abilities are much weaker than the 3E equivalent.  They act much more like a suggestion than they did in 3E.  Does this change anyone's mind about the Druids being overpowered.

I'd take a fighter with a sword over a druid as a bear anyday.  The offensive capabilities of a fighter with armor and a weapon are much better.

I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well.

I'll take the arcane spellcasting of a wizard over a druids casting abilities as well.  Particularly since they cannot cast in animal form.

The druid is part everything but inferior in everything.  I call it balanced.  I hope to try it out soon.

 

I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well...
 



  Not really.  The Rogue can still be detected and when they are, s**t hits the fan.  The mouse, even if detected, will generally be ignored.

I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well...
 



  Not really.  The Rogue can still be detected and when they are, s**t hits the fan.  The mouse, even if detected, will generally be ignored.


Most people I know don't ignore a mouse.  If you saw a mouse in your house what would you do?  The rogue is much more likely to remain undetected.
People seem to be making a big deal that druid has charm and dominate butthese abilities are much weaker than the 3E equivalent.  They act much more like a suggestion than they did in 3E.  Does this change anyone's mind about the Druids being overpowered.

I'd take a fighter with a sword over a druid as a bear anyday.  The offensive capabilities of a fighter with armor and a weapon are much better.

I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well.

I'll take the arcane spellcasting of a wizard over a druids casting abilities as well.  Particularly since they cannot cast in animal form.

The druid is part everything but inferior in everything.  I call it balanced.  I hope to try it out soon.

 



The problem is that a druid is NOT inferior in everything.
Circle of the moon druid, level 7.
Wildshapes into a Dire Ancient Behemoth (4/day minimum duration of 7 hours per use)
Attack Bonus:  +6
Damage: 6d6+4 (25 avg)
AC:  17

Compare to a fighter (17 str)
Attack Bonus: +5
Damage (best case): 2d12+3 (16 avg)
AC (full plate): 18 

Then at high level

At level 20
Dire Ancient Behemoth Druid
Attack Bonus:  +10
Damage: 15d6+4 (56.5 avg)
AC: 20

Compare to a lvl 20 fighter (20 str)
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage (best case): 5d12+5 (37.5 avg)
AC (mithral plate): 18

And of course the druid also has his fulll compliment of spells, and a 20 wisdom, because he doesn't need any physical stats.  
So his spell DC is also a 20 at this level.  Sooo, yeah.  Druid is OP.


The problem is that a druid is NOT inferior in everything.
Circle of the moon druid, level 7.
Wildshapes into a Dire Ancient Behemoth (4/day minimum duration of 7 hours per use)
Attack Bonus:  +6
Damage: 6d6+4 (25 avg)
AC:  17

Compare to a fighter (17 str)
Attack Bonus: +5
Damage (best case): 2d12+3 (16 avg)
AC (full plate): 18 

Then at high level

At level 20
Dire Ancient Behemoth Druid
Attack Bonus:  +10
Damage: 15d6+4 (56.5 avg)
AC: 20

Compare to a lvl 20 fighter (20 str)
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage (best case): 5d12+5 (37.5 avg)
AC (mithral plate): 18

And of course the druid also has his fulll compliment of spells, and a 20 wisdom, because he doesn't need any physical stats.  
So his spell DC is also a 20 at this level.  Sooo, yeah.  Druid is OP.



You cannot wildshape into a dire behemoth.  Dire shape only works on large or smaller animals.  The behemoth is huge.





The druid is overpowered because he can do everything. He can heal, cast strong damage and utility spells, and dps all in the same build. They need too weaken the shapeshifters spellcasting and vice versa for the specaster.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

the problem is that the druid is really two classes, one while he is shifted, one while he is not. because he cant mix them both have to be as good as a normal class. this means that he has too much flexability, even if he is only as powerfull as a rogue or fighter when shifted, and as powerfull as an average caster when not he can call upon the ablitys of one or the other.

I think they should just seperate them into two classes, a shape-shifter (with a few nature-mage type abilties, just like a palidan might have a few heals) and a nature mage (with a few shape-shifter abilities).
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
Try playtesting the druid.  I don't think it will be overpowered.
I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well.

Thing is, it's a mouse.  So someone spots you.  Worse case, they hit you with a broom or sic a cat on you.  Best case, you get some cheese.


 

 

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I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well...
 



  Not really.  The Rogue can still be detected and when they are, s**t hits the fan.  The mouse, even if detected, will generally be ignored.


Most people I know don't ignore a mouse.  If you saw a mouse in your house what would you do?  The rogue is much more likely to remain undetected.



  Having lived most of my life in a rural area, I don't have a particularly strong reaction when I see a mouse around my home.  At most, I remind myself to set a mouse trap at some point that week. 

  I'm willing to bet that my reaction would be even less intense if I were living in a pre-industrial world in a structure made chiefly of wood, mud, and stone and little in the way of modern amenities.

   And in any case, a skittering mouse illicits less response than a skulking stranger.

I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well.

Thing is, it's a mouse.  So someone spots you.  Worse case, they hit you with a broom or sic a cat on you.  Best case, you get some cheese.


An orc with a battle axe that sees you won't hit you with a broom.  He might decide to chop you in half.

Maybe a goblin will just grab you and throw you in a pot of boiling water.

Never met any enemies with brooms in the adventures I've been in.

Look through the test adventures and see how many brooms or creatures with cheese there are.  From my recollection.  None.
In a magical world with orcs, goblins, wolfs, skeletons, and giants, a mouse is welcome and a passing thought for most.
In other words: Know your DM.

I have had DMs who treat mice as the worst possible threats.  Simply spotting one would drive every monster in the room into a murderous frenzy.  But only if the mouse was actually a PC in disguise.  If we were to find an actual mouse and release it into a room it wouldn't cause a stir.

I have had other DMs who instead have monsters just ignore the mouse, maybe half heartedly chase it, maybe try to catch it, etc depending on what sort of monsters they are.

Know your DM.
In other words: Know your DM.

I have had DMs who treat mice as the worst possible threats.  Simply spotting one would drive every monster in the room into a murderous frenzy.  But only if the mouse was actually a PC in disguise.  If we were to find an actual mouse and release it into a room it wouldn't cause a stir.

I have had other DMs who instead have monsters just ignore the mouse, maybe half heartedly chase it, maybe try to catch it, etc depending on what sort of monsters they are.

Know your DM.



Good advice but I would definitely change my response as a DM depending on the creature that you are spying on.

Dangerous Categories:
1. Eats mice (cats, goblins, very hungry creatures)
2. Kills or tortures little animals for fun
3. Likes cleanliness
4. Very intelligent
5. Very observant (can tell the difference between a standard mouse and a druid mouse
6. Has reason to suspect the mouse could be a spy

Safe (must fulfill all 5 categories)
1. Unclean (other rats likely present)
2. Apathetic to small rodents
3. Stupid
4. Can't identify the mouse as anything but a normal mouse
5. Ignorant of potential shapeshifters

It is easier for a DM to spot one of the first 6 categories than to decide that all of the last 5 apply.  A DM could easily make an intelligence check or a wisdom check on a creature to either identify the mouse as a potential shapeshifter or see through the disguise.


The problem is that a druid is NOT inferior in everything.
Circle of the moon druid, level 7.
Wildshapes into a Dire Ancient Behemoth (4/day minimum duration of 7 hours per use)
Attack Bonus:  +6
Damage: 6d6+4 (25 avg)
AC:  17

Compare to a fighter (17 str)
Attack Bonus: +5
Damage (best case): 2d12+3 (16 avg)
AC (full plate): 18 

Then at high level

At level 20
Dire Ancient Behemoth Druid
Attack Bonus:  +10
Damage: 15d6+4 (56.5 avg)
AC: 20

Compare to a lvl 20 fighter (20 str)
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage (best case): 5d12+5 (37.5 avg)
AC (mithral plate): 18

And of course the druid also has his fulll compliment of spells, and a 20 wisdom, because he doesn't need any physical stats.  
So his spell DC is also a 20 at this level.  Sooo, yeah.  Druid is OP.



You cannot wildshape into a dire behemoth.  Dire shape only works on large or smaller animals.  The behemoth is huge.








Yes, you can.  Read it again.
The first benefit of 'Shape of the Dire Beast' reads:
"The creature's size increases by one category, provided it was Large or smaller to begin with."

All this means is that when you use Dire Shape on Ancient Behemoth, it does not get an increase in size category, it simply stays Huge. 


The problem is that a druid is NOT inferior in everything.
Circle of the moon druid, level 7.
Wildshapes into a Dire Ancient Behemoth (4/day minimum duration of 7 hours per use)
Attack Bonus:  +6
Damage: 6d6+4 (25 avg)
AC:  17

Compare to a fighter (17 str)
Attack Bonus: +5
Damage (best case): 2d12+3 (16 avg)
AC (full plate): 18 

Then at high level

At level 20
Dire Ancient Behemoth Druid
Attack Bonus:  +10
Damage: 15d6+4 (56.5 avg)
AC: 20

Compare to a lvl 20 fighter (20 str)
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage (best case): 5d12+5 (37.5 avg)
AC (mithral plate): 18

And of course the druid also has his fulll compliment of spells, and a 20 wisdom, because he doesn't need any physical stats.  
So his spell DC is also a 20 at this level.  Sooo, yeah.  Druid is OP.



You cannot wildshape into a dire behemoth.  Dire shape only works on large or smaller animals.  The behemoth is huge.








Yes, you can.  Read it again.
The first benefit of 'Shape of the Dire Beast' reads:
"The creature's size increases by one category, provided it was Large or smaller to begin with."

All this means is that when you use Dire Shape on Ancient Behemoth, it does not get an increase in size category, it simply stays Huge. 



I disagree. 

"Dire beasts are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary creatures."

I would assume the ordinary creatures are the bear and the great cat.

Dire Beast does not stack with Ancient Behemoth (which is already a giant prehistoric animal).

I'm sure you will find this to be the case when they rewrite the wording to make it clearer.

Dire comes at 5th level and stacks with the 1st and 3rd level forms.  Ancient Behemoth comes at 7th level.  Enhanced form comes at 9th level and stacks with all of the ones before it.







The problem is that a druid is NOT inferior in everything.
Circle of the moon druid, level 7.
Wildshapes into a Dire Ancient Behemoth (4/day minimum duration of 7 hours per use)
Attack Bonus:  +6
Damage: 6d6+4 (25 avg)
AC:  17

Compare to a fighter (17 str)
Attack Bonus: +5
Damage (best case): 2d12+3 (16 avg)
AC (full plate): 18 

Then at high level

At level 20
Dire Ancient Behemoth Druid
Attack Bonus:  +10
Damage: 15d6+4 (56.5 avg)
AC: 20

Compare to a lvl 20 fighter (20 str)
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage (best case): 5d12+5 (37.5 avg)
AC (mithral plate): 18

And of course the druid also has his fulll compliment of spells, and a 20 wisdom, because he doesn't need any physical stats.  
So his spell DC is also a 20 at this level.  Sooo, yeah.  Druid is OP.



You cannot wildshape into a dire behemoth.  Dire shape only works on large or smaller animals.  The behemoth is huge.








Yes, you can.  Read it again.
The first benefit of 'Shape of the Dire Beast' reads:
"The creature's size increases by one category, provided it was Large or smaller to begin with."

All this means is that when you use Dire Shape on Ancient Behemoth, it does not get an increase in size category, it simply stays Huge. 



I disagree. 

"Dire beasts are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary creatures."

I would assume the ordinary creatures are the bear and the great cat.

Dire Beast does not stack with Ancient Behemoth (which is already a giant prehistoric animal).

I'm sure you will find this to be the case when they rewrite the wording to make it clearer.

Dire comes at 5th level and stacks with the 1st and 3rd level forms.  Ancient Behemoth comes at 7th level.  Enhanced form comes at 9th level and stacks with all of the ones before it.








You are making assumptions based on the flavor text for the ability.  The actual rules do not agree with you.

Further confirmation is in the comparison of a Dire Bear versus a regular Ancient Behemoth.  If you cannot use dire shape on the Ancient behemoth, then it is a lateral change from a Dire bear at lvl 7, and completely obsolete at level 9.  Meaning that Ancient Behemoth would be a non-feature.


I'd take a rogue with sneak expertise over a druid as a mouse as well...
 



  Not really.  The Rogue can still be detected and when they are, s**t hits the fan.  The mouse, even if detected, will generally be ignored.


Most people I know don't ignore a mouse.  If you saw a mouse in your house what would you do?  The rogue is much more likely to remain undetected.



Well Dnd is Mideval fantasy it was quite common foe small rodents like mice to roam in and around the places where humans lived.
It was only in the renisance that these creatures were killed in mass and no longer are a part of our every day lives.

You are making assumptions based on the flavor text for the ability.  The actual rules do not agree with you.

Further confirmation is in the comparison of a Dire Bear versus a regular Ancient Behemoth.  If you cannot use dire shape on the Ancient behemoth, then it is a lateral change from a Dire bear at lvl 7, and completely obsolete at level 9.  Meaning that Ancient Behemoth would be a non-feature.



I see what you mean.  Dire Beast progresses at higher levels.  At 9th level, the ancient behemoth would receive an enhanced form so it might still be a viable choice.  By 15th level, however, the Dire Cat or Dire Bear would generally be the best choice.

On the other hand, Dire Great Cat and Dire Great Bear become a non-feature when Dire Ancient Behemoth is the best possibility (which it clearly would be).  The only benefit to the cat would be climbing and the only benefit to the Bear would be swimming.  Otherwise they are clearly inferior.

I still think he intent is for the dire beast to enhance the cat and bear and not the ancient behemoth (which is already a dire creature).