Better fire blaster controller: Evoc/pyro mage, or hybrid wizard/sorc?

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Trying to make a good fire blaster, seeing as our damage in the party isn't great, and a ton of conditions are hard to keep track of for our group.

For mages, they get the school benefits and typically use a staff of ruin with a shard, specializing in accurate staff.

But I've recently heard that it might be better to go hybrid sorc. You lose the school benefits, but you get to use an incendiary dagger for free, and you can dual wield the dagger + tome. The tome is for its expertise feat, which pairs nicely with some of the fire summons that fire blasters use.


Power input: Is the orbmaster incendiary better than burning hands? This is without the arcanist rider.
Is it worth using your e7 for fire shroud that so you can use color spray for your e3?

edit: I'd like feat input as well. Again, for a fire blaster, how are these for his first five feats? DIS (using +2's in OH), stoking, enlarge spell, staff expertise, superior implement training (accurate staff)
Fire blaster?  Elementalist.
Whoever is giving you advice is giving you very bad advice.

Tiefling Mage or Tiefling Elementalist are your two strong options. DIS isn't worth it till you have a +3/4 secondary implement.

there's multiple options here and you need to make some decisions first before we can really help.

What race are you going to play as ?  Among the top fire blaster races you have Tiefling and Genasi.  You can also go Human, Eladrin and maybe even Deva.

Once you picked your race look at the class options.  Mages make very good fire blasters because of the pyro / evocation schools and because they get the wizard class support.

Sorcs can get their STR to damage rolls, which if you take Genasi combos well.  I don't know enough of the hybrid sorc stuff to tell for sure if you should or not.  I'm sure someone else can though.  I don't know if it's worth hybriding Sorc just to get dagger as implement.

Elementalists are an option as well, though i've never played one.

Speaking of implements, the usual route is to grab a staff of ruin like you mention.  However there's other options.  Wands for example might not immediately appear interesting but the expertise feat grants you the ability to ignore all forms of cover.  Since blasts and bursts ignore concealment, this allows you to ignore the basic ways to lose accuracy.  You can also take a superior implement of the wand that boosts fire damage.  So all around you don't lose much for using a wand, there's also interesting enchants for wands.  I can see the benefits of the incendiary dagger, but it's not that critical IMO.

For powers Burning Hands is your go to power at low levels if you take the wizard or mage route.  Fire shroud is also nice of course.  Color spray does radiant damage and dazes, not exactly what you're looking for but if you want damage + control that's a good power to grab.


For feats the issue is that depending on which race you take you're looking at different startups.  Tiefling, for example, has a good 3 feats you probably want to grab as soon as possible for fire blasters, add to that the racial initiative booster which makes 4.  You also want an expertise feat to match your chosen implement.  You might also want unarmored agility at low levels until paragon where it fades.  Then things like enlarge spell, superior implement, dual implement spellcaster (late heroic - early paragon) come into play as you go up in levels.  Stoking flame is hit or miss to be honest, I personaly don't value it vs other options.  But you may, and that's fine.

Try to come up with a build for us to look over and we can go from there.

"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Human, Wizard (Mage)
School: Evocation School
School: Pyromancy School
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 11, DEX 13, INT 21, WIS 13, CHA 10
 
 AC: 20 Fort: 16 Ref: 21 Will: 19
HP: 45 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 11

 
POWERS

at-will: arc lightning, scorching burst
encounter (primaries): burning hands, color spray, fire shroud
daily (primaries): orb of flame, summon magma beast
utilities: shield, fire shield,
 
FEATS
Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 1: Staff Expertise
Level 2: Stoking the Fire
Level 4: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 6: Enlarge Spell
 
ITEMS
Magic Accurate staff +2
Amulet of Protection +2
Magic Cloth Armor+2
Siberys Shard of the Mage (heroic tier)
Demise's Accurate staff of Ruin +2 x1


Not a top tier race, just human. It's a level 7 build, and I've got an eye towards mage just because of the free school benefits. I know it's just +1 and a kind of brutal, but it's something.

The powers are basically the same no matter what race, right? Take anything good that has flame (except scorching, which is a placeholder until admixture).

The guide I was reading recommended DIS as one of the very first damage things you got, after expertise anyway. I've also had expand spell be praised as another immediate thing to acquire, no matter what kind of wizard you are, so I went with that. Stat wise, I pumped INT, got 13 wis and dex for feats, left the rest in con.

Stalves are mandatory, right? It's the combination of the really good expertise bonus, shards, and ruin that makes them superior to all else, as I understand.
Fire Blaster Mage isn't as good as it used to be since the nerf to Flaming Weapon (at several levels even without feat synergy, your best powers are non-fire), and is entirely incompatible with "Controller" until mid-Paragon when you can start adding Fire to every power.

Going to have to second the "Elementalist" suggestion, as Con/Cha fits Tiefling (though Genasi is possibly still better thanks to Echo), and Escalation gives you targeting flexibility and more damage on your primary power (Elemental Bolt). Still entirely weaker than other Sorcerers, but you can't optimize them around fire without being Dragonborn.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Fire Blaster Mage isn't as good as it used to be since the nerf to Flaming Weapon (at several levels even without feat synergy, your best powers are non-fire), and is entirely incompatible with "Controller" until mid-Paragon when you can start adding Fire to every power.

Going to have to second the "Elementalist" suggestion, as Con/Cha fits Tiefling (though Genasi is possibly still better thanks to Echo), and Escalation gives you targeting flexibility and more damage on your primary power (Elemental Bolt). Still entirely weaker than other Sorcerers, but you can't optimize them around fire without being Dragonborn.



Wouldn't the new dragonborn variations from dragon 421 make them stronger elementalists then even the genasi due to the static, always on bonus to damage?  Or would the bonus from promise of storm/elemental echo be better.
that's an interesting point Koshinuke I didn't even contemplate it in my earlier post.  And dragonbreath support.  You know what, it just might make them at the very least on par.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

I don't think hybrid sorc|wizard works.  You need two high stats for a sorcerer, and neither of them is INT.
Yeah, the more I look at it and get feedback from y'all, the harder it looks to pull off. Would being a generalist blaster, picking whatever evocation spells provide a minimum of control (like freezing burst, color spray, and zone spells) be the best balance of damage and control? Here I'd just take staff focus instead of the paragon damage focus feats.
Fire Blaster Mage isn't as good as it used to be since the nerf to Flaming Weapon (at several levels even without feat synergy, your best powers are non-fire), and is entirely incompatible with "Controller" until mid-Paragon when you can start adding Fire to every power.

Going to have to second the "Elementalist" suggestion, as Con/Cha fits Tiefling (though Genasi is possibly still better thanks to Echo), and Escalation gives you targeting flexibility and more damage on your primary power (Elemental Bolt). Still entirely weaker than other Sorcerers, but you can't optimize them around fire without being Dragonborn.

There is a decent (enough for any normal home game) Fire-native keyword power all the way to mid-Paragon, so... not bad till you can get Weapon of Summer, but yeah, the situation isn't as good as it once was.

Echo is +1/+2/4/6 for two turns, Tiefling is +1/+1 all the time, but Genasi don't have a Cha boost, so overall I'd go with the Tiefling because the stats line up nicely and their other misc. feat support is better. If you could somehow get Fire+Lightning on everything and had Promise of Storm then your nova on a Genasi would be better enough to be worth considering. Though at that point, not sure why the fire is there at all.
For anything fire, Tiefling is really really hard to beat.  Also look at the Infernal Prince theme.
I was also mistaking the Revenant's available stats (how to make a Genasi a better Sorcerer? Kill him first)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I was also mistaking the Revenant's available stats (how to make a Genasi a better Sorcerer? Kill him first)

It's amusing how many things are improved by being dead.

If you want do be a striker/controller with a fire theme I would strongly consider a tielfling hybrid wizard/warlock.  The stats match up, and the feat support is amazing.  The good thing about this is there are a lot of choices, the bad thing is that almost all tielfling builds are feat starved because there are so many excellent options to pick from.

For example, you could buff your at will striker attack Eldritch Blast with the Infernal Prince theme (+1 to hit with fire) and the feats Hellish Blast (at will becomes fire and adds +1 damage/tier), Hellfire Blood (+1 to hit and damage with fire and fear) and Staff Expertise.  At sixth level with a stat of 18 and a +2 staff of ruin that puts your Eldrich Blast attack at +11 vs. reflex (12 vs. bloodied targets) hitting for 1d10+1d6+10 fire damage.  

Another strong option is the Constitution/Infernal Pact option that throws Hellish Rebuke (swapping Hellish Blast for Blood Pact of Cania) at +11 vs. reflex (12 vs. bloodied targets) hitting for 2d6+11 fire damage with the potential to hit again if you take damage.  The Con/Int build is less good on a tielfling than a Cha/Int build.

At this point you can go into Stoking the Fire, Accurate Impliment, Warlock's Wrath, Icy Clutch of Stygia, some defensive stuff, etc.  

I think the key to this potential build is setting yourself up to use fire attacks most of the time, while still keeping the best control powers in wizard regardess of keyword.  The fire keyword on Hellish Blast is also optional, so you can still lay some hurt on things with resistance.
Hey,
sorry to hijack your thread. I asked in the SQSA thread before, but i guess my question fits better in here, so here we go:

"I'm wondering, what Class/PP/ED combo would be best for a Stormsoul Genasi Blaster Wizard. 
Would Pyromancer/MKJ (lightning or thunder [->Resounding Thunder?])/Radiant One be any good? This way damage would be pretty good and i wouldn't need a certain elemental weapon enchant. Or is there a Classcombo/PP/ED, that a Blaster wizard shouldn't miss? Would going melee range and picking one of the items, that prevent enemies of OAing vs ranged/area attacks used in melee + a firewind blade (via MC SM) be worth it? Or should i stick with a staff of ruin?"
Not a problem. The board, if nothing else, has instilled in me just how much race matters when you're trying to accomplish something. The best blasters (who are also controllers, i.e. wizards) focus on one element, and if you go fire, pick tiefling, and if anything else, pick genasi, and rev up the strength.

It wasn't particularly optimal from the get-go, so instead, I'm trying to work with the human and see how his humanly features might contribute to his wizardly offense. the +1's to NADs suggest a summoner build, so I'm looking into that. If I could only find how implements work with summons, and if so, which implements are best. I'm thinking tome for the great expertise and arcanist option, but I'm still not sure if that'd beat out a good ol' staff of ruin.
Not a problem. The board, if nothing else, has instilled in me just how much race matters when you're trying to accomplish something. The best blasters (who are also controllers, i.e. wizards) focus on one element, and if you go fire, pick tiefling, and if anything else, pick genasi, and rev up the strength.

It wasn't particularly optimal from the get-go, so instead, I'm trying to work with the human and see how his humanly features might contribute to his wizardly offense. the +1's to NADs suggest a summoner build, so I'm looking into that. If I could only find how implements work with summons, and if so, which implements are best. I'm thinking tome for the great expertise and arcanist option, but I'm still not sure if that'd beat out a good ol' staff of ruin.



Thanks for your answer, but i asked for something more specific.

If the summoning power got the implement keyword, all the implement's properties should apply to the attacks made by the summon, as well.
Anyone got an advice on #16?
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