What to do with infinite Bull Rush?

Bull Rush needs some kind of action.  Or perhaps "when you attack", or at very least "once per turn".

But since it's not, we can just keep choosing the same creature over and over, till we win the contentss.  And since it's free movement, we can go anywhere.


But since it's broke, What fun things can you do with infinite bullrush?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I was under the impression that performing a contest required an Action?

Assuming it's NOT an action, then boy is that a fun feat. I like Bull Rush, Attack + Trip + Move to another target, Bull Rush!  
I was under the impression that performing a contest required an Action?

Assuming it's NOT an action, then boy is that a fun feat. I like Bull Rush, Attack + Trip + Move to another target, Bull Rush!  




rolling dice requires an action, the bull rush is not an incidental action   see page 11 of the DM guidelines.


I was under the impression that performing a contest required an Action?

Assuming it's NOT an action, then boy is that a fun feat. I like Bull Rush, Attack + Trip + Move to another target, Bull Rush!  




rolling dice requires an action, the bull rush is not an incidental action   see page 11 of the DM guidelines.



Gotcha, what's sort of what I assumed.

I do protest the idea of making Bull Rush into a feat. I think Bull Rush (Disarm and Trip) shouldn't be feats at all and specific actions anyone might want to perform. Feats should alter, change, or enhance the core principals of the game, not let people do more stuff. So we could have Bull Rush (Move a target back 5-ft with a successful Strength vs. Strength or Dex contest) AND Bulldoze/Overrun/Overwhelm feat which does what Bull Rush does now. Same thing with Trip and call the feat Leg Sweep and Disarm call the feat Neutralizing Strike.

I dunno, making these into feats as they are means that no one will ever try them because they didn't put resoruces into them, even if it's just fun or for a situationally cool thing to do. A DM could say "Sure, try it" but then how does that make the guy who actually grabbed that feat feel?  
I was under the impression that performing a contest required an Action?

Nope.

rolling dice requires an action, the bull rush is not an incidental action   see page 11 of the DM guidelines.

It doesn't say that.  It say's NOT rolling dice is generally NOT an action.  Lore checks, for instance, roll dice, and would not be an action.

In fact...

*is part of or enables an action or a move.

Bull rush enables a move, therefore would be inconciquential.     

(yea, it wouldn't fly at any table, but that's not the point.   )

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Disarming Attack is also unlimited.

I don't think they thought about that
Bull rush enables a move, therefore would be inconciquential.    


Bull rush does not enable a move.  In fact the feat clearly states that "it uses none of your regular movement".

It meets none of the hallmarks of an inconsequential action.  It requires dice. It requires effort. It does not enable an attack or a move.
Disarming Attack is also unlimited.


That feat begins "As an action...".  It's not unlimited. You can try it once a round and when you do you aren't able to make other attacks.
I was under the impression that performing a contest required an Action?

Assuming it's NOT an action, then boy is that a fun feat. I like Bull Rush, Attack + Trip + Move to another target, Bull Rush!  




rolling dice requires an action, the bull rush is not an incidental action   see page 11 of the DM guidelines.



Gotcha, what's sort of what I assumed.

I do protest the idea of making Bull Rush into a feat. I think Bull Rush (Disarm and Trip) shouldn't be feats at all and specific actions anyone might want to perform. Feats should alter, change, or enhance the core principals of the game, not let people do more stuff. So we could have Bull Rush (Move a target back 5-ft with a successful Strength vs. Strength or Dex contest) AND Bulldoze/Overrun/Overwhelm feat which does what Bull Rush does now. Same thing with Trip and call the feat Leg Sweep and Disarm call the feat Neutralizing Strike.

I dunno, making these into feats as they are means that no one will ever try them because they didn't put resoruces into them, even if it's just fun or for a situationally cool thing to do. A DM could say "Sure, try it" but then how does that make the guy who actually grabbed that feat feel?  



I'm also having a hard time with these contrived options/feats.

My 2e fighter gets all of those actions out of the box (trip, charge, disarm, pin, called shot, overbearing,  etc).  

D&D Next's set of basic combat actions should include all of these and they should not simply become contrived options for the fighter.      Perhaps the system can provide improved versions of them, but a feat should not be required to perform them.     

Feats should be "Feats" and it should  be something that's almost fantastic,  they should not simply be enablers of what was previously a default combat action.     

In addition, I think 5e is going to down the wrong path in an attempt to give the fighter something good.  IMO, options like these are not good options. 

There are also some really stupid feats that make no sense at all.  Take the Halfted Weapon feat.   How exactly do you make 1d4 bludgeoning damage with a weapon (like a pike) that has no hammer end?  They should put that kind of feature in the weapon.   In fact, some polearms should have several modes to attack with.    






I was under the impression that performing a contest required an Action?

Assuming it's NOT an action, then boy is that a fun feat. I like Bull Rush, Attack + Trip + Move to another target, Bull Rush!  




rolling dice requires an action, the bull rush is not an incidental action   see page 11 of the DM guidelines.



Gotcha, what's sort of what I assumed.

I do protest the idea of making Bull Rush into a feat. I think Bull Rush (Disarm and Trip) shouldn't be feats at all and specific actions anyone might want to perform. Feats should alter, change, or enhance the core principals of the game, not let people do more stuff. So we could have Bull Rush (Move a target back 5-ft with a successful Strength vs. Strength or Dex contest) AND Bulldoze/Overrun/Overwhelm feat which does what Bull Rush does now. Same thing with Trip and call the feat Leg Sweep and Disarm call the feat Neutralizing Strike.

I dunno, making these into feats as they are means that no one will ever try them because they didn't put resoruces into them, even if it's just fun or for a situationally cool thing to do. A DM could say "Sure, try it" but then how does that make the guy who actually grabbed that feat feel?  



I'm also having a hard time with these contrived options/feats.

My 2e fighter gets all of those actions out of the box (trip, charge, disarm, pin, called shot, overbearing,  etc).  

D&D Next's set of basic combat actions should include all of these and they should not simply become contrived options for the fighter.      Perhaps the system can provide improved versions of them, but a feat should not be required to perform them.     

Feats should be "Feats" and it should  be something that's almost fantastic,  they should not simply be enablers of what was previously a default combat action.     

In addition, I think 5e is going to down the wrong path in an attempt to give the fighter something good.  IMO, options like these are not good options. 


The thing is, if you give the options right in the combat options, people will complain that the fighter "has nothing to do"
While if you remove these options and hand them on a "bonus" basis, they'll think they've made a choice and will be happy that they have options.
If you really think about it, the "improvise" action is functionally the only choice you really need. But people like to have things spelled out for them.
At that point, it's more gamer psychology than game design.


There are also some really stupid feats that make no sense at all.  Take the Halfted Weapon feat.   How exactly do you make 1d4 bludgeoning damage with a weapon (like a pike) that has no hammer end?  They should put that kind of feature in the weapon.   In fact, some polearms should have several modes to attack with.    



You don't need a hammer head to hurt someone with a 7 foot pole.
Agreed that it should be in the features of the weapon, but we go back to my point above. 
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I was under the impression that performing a contest required an Action?

Nope.

rolling dice requires an action, the bull rush is not an incidental action   see page 11 of the DM guidelines.

It doesn't say that.  It say's NOT rolling dice is generally NOT an action.  Lore checks, for instance, roll dice, and would not be an action.

In fact...

*is part of or enables an action or a move.

Bull rush enables a move, therefore would be inconciquential.     

(yea, it wouldn't fly at any table, but that's not the point.   )




no.

"a task that meets one or more of the following... "

 * It doesn't require a die roll or any other rules"
 * It is effortless
 * Is is part of or enables an action or a move.

1. Bull rush requires a die role and other rules.   
2. Bull rush is not effortless (requires a str contest)
3. It doesn't enable an action or a move since Bull Rush doesn't need to be enabled.   Pushing open a door to perform a Bull Rush would be an incidental action.

As per the examples in the list it should be obvious that pushing open an unsecured and unstuck door isn't anything like pushing someone (who might resist) 20 feet.

It's very clear that it's not an incidental action.  




 


(responding to topic title) What do you do with an infinite bull rush?

-Push someone so far so fast you break the speed of light, go back in time, and set up the world in your image.
-Start up a perpetual motion machine with a first level commoner trained to bullrush, and something relatively harmless. Put him on a wheel, generate enough electricity to power the world.
-Bullrush until you're moving just shy of the speed of light, before ramming smack dab into something and stopping, watch the carnage.

I'm sure you guys can get more creative. 

The thing is, if you give the options right in the combat options, people will complain that the fighter "has nothing to do"
While if you remove these options and hand them on a "bonus" basis, they'll think they've made a choice and will be happy that they have options.
If you really think about it, the "improvise" action is functionally the only choice you really need. But people like to have things spelled out for them.
At that point, it's more gamer psychology than game design.



Should the game designers really be worried about the mental condition of its players?

I would argue that those options are not accepable as fighter only options.  They are just not good enough.    



You don't need a hammer head to hurt someone with a 7 foot pole.
Agreed that it should be in the features of the weapon, but we go back to my point above. 



Yes, you can hurt someone, but that rule makes no logical sense.   Why not just say you can do 1d4 points of extra damage of a type your weapon inflicts.  I just don't understand how the designers even dream up these non-sensical ideas.


Clearly it was an oversight. Of course Bull Rush takes an action. I'm OK with Bull Rush being a feat, but I'm upset that Push and Disarm were cut. I don't like that Shove Away requires a contest, when before it did not.

A 5-ft push is extremely situational, while a 20 foot push can be life-or-death. Here's how it should be:

Bull Rush (feat): action to conest, success is 20 foot push
Push (normal action): action to contest, success is 5 foot push
Shove Away (feat): successful attack automatically pushes 5 feet

EDIT: Then again, I guess grappling fills the shoes of Push, since you can drag dudes around after a successful grapple. Hmm.

As far as disarm and trip goes, they both still suck because the actual repercussions do little to nothing for the attacker. They require finangling with the initiative order to allow allies to take advantage of grabbing the dropped weapon or getting advantage against the prone enemy before the enemy gets to act.

Should the game designers really be worried about the mental condition of its players?

I would argue that those options are not accepable as fighter only options.  They are just not good enough.    



I said psychology, not psychiatry

Basicaly what I meant is that if you tell someone "you can do anything you want" they'll likely pause, spoiled for choice.
But if you say: "you can chose between option A, B or C" They'll pick something and be happy

I'm with you on what it SHOULD be, I just wanted to explain why it wouldn't cut it.
The fighter with the most options was the OD&D one: he had NOTHING codified, so he could try anything

The same logic holds true for skills. I'm glad they removed the skill list: it makes it clear that you can attempt anything, and that skills are not enablers, but facilitators.

Yes, you can hurt someone, but that rule makes no logical sense.   Why not just say you can do 1d4 points of extra damage of a type your weapon inflicts.  I just don't understand how the designers even dream up these non-sensical ideas.


It makes perfect sense: It represents hiting your foe with the butt end of the polearm, that's why it's bludgeoning. and not the type your polearm inflicts.

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Disarming Attack is also unlimited.


That feat begins "As an action...".  It's not unlimited. You can try it once a round and when you do you aren't able to make other attacks.



To me it sounds as if you are making a disarm in addition to an attack... I may be reading it wrong... if that is the case then that means you have to have a feat to try and disarm someone... which is even more ridiculous.
This is why I made a topic about separating feat actions unto it's only system like spells and cantrips. Easier to catch confusing elements.

We can call them maneuvers.

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Disarming Attack is also unlimited.


That feat begins "As an action...".  It's not unlimited. You can try it once a round and when you do you aren't able to make other attacks.



To me it sounds as if you are making a disarm in addition to an attack... I may be reading it wrong... if that is the case then that means you have to have a feat to try and disarm someone... which is even more ridiculous.


You are reading it right: it is a disarm AND an attack in the same action. But it's still your action for the turn. If someway you get to do more than one action per turn, you can perform disarming attack more than once.
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Disarming Attack is also unlimited.


That feat begins "As an action...".  It's not unlimited. You can try it once a round and when you do you aren't able to make other attacks.



To me it sounds as if you are making a disarm in addition to an attack...


Yes, but unlike what the OP was suggesting, it's not an inconsequential action, which is why the OP was discussign infinite bull rushes.

you have to have a feat to try and disarm someone... which is even more ridiculous.


And a completely separate complaint, with which I agree.
A "normal" disarm should be in the combat option section. (one that just disarms, without attacking at the same time)

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A "normal" disarm should be in the combat option section. (one that just disarms, without attacking at the same time)



Agreed.
A "normal" disarm should be in the combat option section. (one that just disarms, without attacking at the same time)



Agreed.



Should it, or is it just a (strength) contest improvised action?

I think that eluding the combat section improve the improvise action even more, but it is just my humble opinion.*

Those feats does not enable you to do something you can't otherwise by using an improvised action. Instead it provides you the benefit of making an attack with the same action, which is strickly better.

The only exeption is Bullrush, which is not giving you a free attack with a push, but a better push it seems... well as the OP says, this feat need clarification.
A "normal" disarm should be in the combat option section. (one that just disarms, without attacking at the same time)



Agreed.



Should it, or is it just a (strength) contest improvise action?

I think that eluding the combat section improve the improvise action even more, but it is just my humble opinion.


I fully agree .
But since there is already a mecanic spelled out within a feat, it would make more sense if this particular action was included. (mostly a clarity thing)
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
A "normal" disarm should be in the combat option section. (one that just disarms, without attacking at the same time)



Agreed.



Should it, or is it just a (strength) contest improvise action?

I think that eluding the combat section improve the improvise action even more, but it is just my humble opinion.


I fully agree .
But since there is already a mecanic spelled out within a feat, it would make more sense if this particular action was included. (mostly a clarity thing)



Which I think humbly, is a bad move from the designers when they spelled out the mecanic in the feat. They should just have stated: make a disarm improvised action AND an attack, as an action.

But Ok, I guess, for clarity...
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