New Packet Or.....


 The new packet is a bit bland putting it mildly. Makes one feel a lot more willing to compromise on the off chance we get something fun. The idea here is state what your preferred option for D&DN would be followed by any alternatves  you can think of. 

Preferred Option 
AD&D/3rd ed hybrid (Myth and Magic)
3.5/4th ed hybrid (D&D Saga Edition)

Plan B 
 

AD&D 3rd Ed (2nd ed tweaked)
3.75 (fixed 3.5, no PF doesn't count)


 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Plan B
AD&D 3rd Ed (2nd ed tweaked)

...and I want a whole Chapter devoted to grappling. Laughing

(edit: added a smilie so any quoting will take Disadvantage)

 

I just said something and you just read it. Sorry about that.

D&D as an umbrella brand beneath which they release multiple systems:

D&D Saga
D&D Classic
4.5E
ect... 
...whatever
D&D as an umbrella brand beneath which they release multiple systems:

D&D Saga
D&D Classic
4.5E
ect... 



So, go back to original plan of modular design, eh?

 

I just said something and you just read it. Sorry about that.

D&D as an umbrella brand beneath which they release multiple systems:

D&D Saga
D&D Classic
4.5E
ect... 



So, go back to original plan of modular design, eh?



Not really. The modular design is a farce, as the above shouldn't be shoehorned into the same system. What I suggest is dropping the pretense and making different systems.
...whatever
D&D as an umbrella brand beneath which they release multiple systems:

D&D Saga
D&D Classic
4.5E
ect... 



So, go back to original plan of modular design, eh?



Not really. The modular design is a farce, as the above shouldn't be shoehorned into the same system. What I suggest is dropping the pretense and making different systems.



Well in that case I would be all for it. I'll select 2e and even it's THAC0 that goes with it (mostly because it's ingrained into my being). Though d20 is the exact same scale, pretty much, and more straight forward sliding on 1 - 20 instead of a -10 through 10 scale.... ok rambling. Laughing (more smilie faces to thwart the badwrongfun people)

 

I just said something and you just read it. Sorry about that.

I think how it's done is very important. However in a general sense:

Preferred:
2E / 4E hybrid
In the thread about the best versions of classes it seemed like these two seemed to score the best and it worked out vaguely to 2E casters and 4E martials.

I think along those same lines I could go for Plan B:
3.5 / 4E hybrid
If they did it "right" in my opinion giving martial characters more interesting stuff and reigning in overpowered CoDzillas it could work just as well.

From the initial talk of uniting the fan base and ending the edition wars these would have been to me the best ways to go. The problem is they aren't doing it. They talk like they want to, but they are banishing 4E stuff and seem to be pushing the game more more back to 3.5 with each packet.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There is a nice little self created divide here. Shame there can't be more acceptance instead. I feel that is where the future of the game should be.

All this vitriol, pushing away, retroactive retaliation, and preemptive striking needs to stop.

I keep trying but some won't let things go. Will you?

 

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus. Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.

Thta was my thread about the classes Zappy. I wonder how the 3.5 players feel about clerics and druids going back to level 7 max spellls. That was part of what broke 3rd ed.

 They may have to make a choice between complexity and basic as you need feats/talents/powers/character points/manuveurs etc to customise stuff. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

2E flexibility (class, maneuvers/spellls, specialities/feats, background/skills, kits/themes) and 4E structure (simple, spelled out and streamlined), with more opitons for healing rates, ritual use, martial practices and related items like alchemy.

Preferred
AD&D/3rd ed hybrid (Myth & Magic)

Plan B
House-ruled 3.5.

Plan C
Any other D&D that is not 4ed.
 
D&D as an umbrella brand beneath which they release multiple systems:

D&D Saga
D&D Classic
4.5E
ect... 



+1

Rebrand OD&D and AD&D as D&D Classic
Rebrand 3rd as D&D Unlimited Adventurers
Rebrand 4th as D&D Age of Heroes
Rebrand Essentials as Heroic Essentials, if you must have it at all.

Support all with new materials, saving yourself time on the older editions by letting fans have contests for submitting material.

Abandon 5e altogether.  Unneccessary, wrong thought to proceed with.  Or you could keep at it as a pet project for fun, I guess. 


D&D as an umbrella brand beneath which they release multiple systems:

D&D Saga
D&D Classic
4.5E
ect... 



+1

Rebrand OD&D and AD&D as D&D Classic
Rebrand 3rd as D&D Unlimited Adventurers
Rebrand 4th as D&D Age of Heroes
Rebrand Essentials as Heroic Essentials, if you must have it at all.

Support all with new materials, saving yourself time on the older editions by letting fans have contests for submitting material.

Abandon 5e altogether.  Unneccessary, wrong thought to proceed with.  Or you could keep at it as a pet project for fun, I guess. 





lol that will never happen how would they afford seperate teams of writers to support all these brands, books would sell for 100 a pop. if the playtest isnt working i guess there are other games in town

2E flexibility (class, maneuvers/spellls, specialities/feats, background/skills, kits/themes) and 4E structure (simple, spelled out and streamlined), with more opitons for healing rates, ritual use, martial practices and related items like alchemy.



 I miss priest spheres.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

2E flexibility (class, maneuvers/spellls, specialities/feats, background/skills, kits/themes) and 4E structure (simple, spelled out and streamlined), with more opitons for healing rates, ritual use, martial practices and related items like alchemy.



 I miss priest spheres.



YES

THANK YOU

Why should a preist god A have the exact same spells then a preist from god B? Especially when both gods are polar opposites.... spheres made so much more sense.
(...) They talk like they want to, but they are banishing 4E stuff and seem to be pushing the game more more back to 3.5 with each packet.


It's funny how many people will say "they are banishing (edition they like) and pushing it toward (edition they dislike)" I've seen just about every combination of editions so far

Not a whack at you Zappy, I just think it's a weird phenomenon 
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com

 I miss priest spheres.




I don't! Not right now at least, since I've been playing M&M... which HAS priest spheres.
Laughing 
lol that will never happen how would they afford seperate teams of writers to support all these brands, books would sell for 100 a pop. if the playtest isnt working i guess there are other games in town

You'd be surprised how much money you can make when you start selling things that more consumers want.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

lol that will never happen how would they afford seperate teams of writers to support all these brands, books would sell for 100 a pop. if the playtest isnt working i guess there are other games in town

You'd be surprised how much money you can make when you start selling things that more consumers want.





They wouldn't be.

They'd be selling more things fewer consumers want. 

 I miss priest spheres.




I don't! Not right now at least, since I've been playing M&M... which HAS priest spheres.
Laughing 



 Ssssshhh be very very quiet. We have a sun cleric with access to plant sphere. Check out good berry for a 2nd level cure spell;). Its a little broken but meh its not warping the game.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 


 I miss priest spheres.




I don't! Not right now at least, since I've been playing M&M... which HAS priest spheres.
Laughing 



 Ssssshhh be very very quiet. We have a sun cleric with access to plant sphere. Check out good berry for a 2nd level cure spell;). Its a little broken but meh its not warping the game.




*edit*

Well you got me curious so I went check it out.

It creates 2-8 berries, each curing 1d2 hp, so 2-16 heals, equivalent of 2d8 for a 2nd level spell (considering cure light being level 1 spell cures 1d8).
It's a good spell, but I don't see why it's broken.
Maybe I'm missing some exploitable use here, though. 
One of my players lied to me egads. They misread the spell for 1d12.

 Ignore that comment. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I would prefer a 3.5/4e hybrid.  


  • Take the good things that you learned from 4e put into a much more open and option rich system like 3.5.  

  • Kill the forced format of AEDU (EG everyone gets the same quantity of AEDU powers) but make sure that the concept is reflected (especialy for martial classes) with maneuvers at will, ki powers per encounter, spellcasting as daily etc... 

  • Make sure that spells are as interesting as 3.5 spells, but limit the silliness of high-level power for casters.  Keep at will attack cantrips.  

  • Put feats back to the power level of 3.5

  • Ensure that each class has a decent list of customization options (ala Pathfinder rage powers, rogue talents etc.)

  • Allow for PF style Archtypes (minor variant, great move by pathfinder)

  • Kill the 3.5 multiclass insanity by fixing classes

  • End the assuumed prestige class BS of 3.5

  • Keep the limited healing stylings of 4e (but tweak it)

  • Keep bloodied

  • Keep the HP scale of 4e (more HP at low level, shallower scaling)

  • Remove the homogenized scaling for classes

  • Keep magical defenses over saving throws OR the effective DC scaling that entails so that low level spells remain useful

  • Use a 2e style (or even DDN style) of magical items.  No assumed +6 stat belt by X level.  Math not constrained by boring items.

  • Murder Bounded Accuracy in the face with an axe and then light it on fire inside of a public toilet while we watch and shout insults at it.

Agree with most of that. Let the 4th ed players have their toys as well via a powers list like SWSE and ToB based classes and options.

 Also settle for a nice AD&D/3rd ed hybrid with 4th ed races and classes added to it. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I would prefer a 3.5/4e hybrid.  


  • Take the good things that you learned from 4e put into a much more open and option rich system like 3.5.  

  • Kill the forced format of AEDU (EG everyone gets the same quantity of AEDU powers) but make sure that the concept is reflected (especialy for martial classes) with maneuvers at will, ki powers per encounter, spellcasting as daily etc... 

  • Make sure that spells are as interesting as 3.5 spells, but limit the silliness of high-level power for casters.  Keep at will attack cantrips.  

  • Put feats back to the power level of 3.5

  • Ensure that each class has a decent list of customization options (ala Pathfinder rage powers, rogue talents etc.)

  • Allow for PF style Archtypes (minor variant, great move by pathfinder)

  • Kill the 3.5 multiclass insanity by fixing classes

  • End the assuumed prestige class BS of 3.5

  • Keep the limited healing stylings of 4e (but tweak it)

  • Keep bloodied

  • Keep the HP scale of 4e (more HP at low level, shallower scaling)

  • Remove the homogenized scaling for classes

  • Keep magical defenses over saving throws OR the effective DC scaling that entails so that low level spells remain useful

  • Use a 2e style (or even DDN style) of magical items.  No assumed +6 stat belt by X level.  Math not constrained by boring items.

  • Murder Bounded Accuracy in the face with an axe and then light it on fire inside of a public toilet while we watch and shout insults at it.




I agree with the vast majority of this post.

About the only thing I disagree with is putting feats back to 3.5 style, and the prestige class thing. In 3.5, feats were all over the place in terms of effectiveness and design intent. You had everything from passive bonuses to brand new options. I feel that for a system to succeed a resource like that needs to define what it is supposed to do. Personally, I'm fine with the lower powered feats of 4e, the only real problem was the "math fix feats". You should not be expected to spend feats to maintain basic competency. Instead, I feel that feats should be about specializing your character. Say you get rid of the concept of roles as being linked directly to class, but your feats gear you towards one role or another. Some might give you passive bonuses, others might modify class abilities and/or maneuvers/spells, but none would give you completely new options. But honestly I'd be happy with any feat design as long as it was consistent, which is one thing 3.5 definitely is not.

As for the prestige class thing, I disagree with the idea that they were assumed. They became assumed by the player base at large because they were far and away one of the most interesting methods of character diversification, but the game was perfectly playable without them. Fixing the base classes by giving them all a real resource system, and making prestige classes have a real cost by making the character lose a couple levels of progression of that resource (see: Caster prestige classes that drop a couple caster levels. Take that concept, apply it across the board), helps balance things out a lot, leaves the customization options available, but makes dipping around to 5 different classes for a couple levels each a pretty 'meh' option, and most optimizers wouldn't go for it.


But yeah other than those two points, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Both 3e and 4e had a lot of good points, in 5e I was really hoping to see a fusion of the highlights of each. It's a large part of why I was let down so much initially. Since then, I've lowered my expectations a lot bit WotC continues to find new and interesting ways to disappoint me (hi there d6 class fighter!)
SWSE and PF Kind of fixed the PrC thing. They lowered the incentive to take them or in Sagas case they did not  spam them and they made sense in the in game universe.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I would prefer a 3.5/4e hybrid.  


  • Take the good things that you learned from 4e put into a much more open and option rich system like 3.5.  

  • Kill the forced format of AEDU (EG everyone gets the same quantity of AEDU powers) but make sure that the concept is reflected (especialy for martial classes) with maneuvers at will, ki powers per encounter, spellcasting as daily etc... 

  • Make sure that spells are as interesting as 3.5 spells, but limit the silliness of high-level power for casters.  Keep at will attack cantrips.  

  • Put feats back to the power level of 3.5

  • Ensure that each class has a decent list of customization options (ala Pathfinder rage powers, rogue talents etc.)

  • Allow for PF style Archtypes (minor variant, great move by pathfinder)

  • Kill the 3.5 multiclass insanity by fixing classes

  • End the assuumed prestige class BS of 3.5

  • Keep the limited healing stylings of 4e (but tweak it)

  • Keep bloodied

  • Keep the HP scale of 4e (more HP at low level, shallower scaling)

  • Remove the homogenized scaling for classes

  • Keep magical defenses over saving throws OR the effective DC scaling that entails so that low level spells remain useful

  • Use a 2e style (or even DDN style) of magical items.  No assumed +6 stat belt by X level.  Math not constrained by boring items.

  • Murder Bounded Accuracy in the face with an axe and then light it on fire inside of a public toilet while we watch and shout insults at it.




I agree with the vast majority of this post.

About the only thing I disagree with is putting feats back to 3.5 style, and the prestige class thing. In 3.5, feats were all over the place in terms of effectiveness and design intent. You had everything from passive bonuses to brand new options. I feel that for a system to succeed a resource like that needs to define what it is supposed to do. Personally, I'm fine with the lower powered feats of 4e, the only real problem was the "math fix feats". You should not be expected to spend feats to maintain basic competency. Instead, I feel that feats should be about specializing your character. Say you get rid of the concept of roles as being linked directly to class, but your feats gear you towards one role or another. Some might give you passive bonuses, others might modify class abilities and/or maneuvers/spells, but none would give you completely new options. But honestly I'd be happy with any feat design as long as it was consistent, which is one thing 3.5 definitely is not.

As for the prestige class thing, I disagree with the idea that they were assumed. They became assumed by the player base at large because they were far and away one of the most interesting methods of character diversification, but the game was perfectly playable without them. Fixing the base classes by giving them all a real resource system, and making prestige classes have a real cost by making the character lose a couple levels of progression of that resource (see: Caster prestige classes that drop a couple caster levels. Take that concept, apply it across the board), helps balance things out a lot, leaves the customization options available, but makes dipping around to 5 different classes for a couple levels each a pretty 'meh' option, and most optimizers wouldn't go for it.


But yeah other than those two points, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Both 3e and 4e had a lot of good points, in 5e I was really hoping to see a fusion of the highlights of each. It's a large part of why I was let down so much initially. Since then, I've lowered my expectations a lot bit WotC continues to find new and interesting ways to disappoint me (hi there d6 class fighter!)



I can agree with most of that.

The assumed PrC thing that I was referring to was that prestige classes in 3e were just flat out better than base classes, and there came a point where the "requirements" didn't really cost the player anything.  PrCs like the Archmage were just Wizard+.  I am okay with prestige classes that are built for flavor that isn't well reflected by other base classes (arcane archer, arcane trickster, theurge, loremaster etc etc.) but there were a ton of prestige classes that were just better versions of the base class (Raging Berzerker for example).  Taking a prestige class should be a lateral option, not a better option.

Zardnaar is right to bring up that SWSE and PF both fixed this issue.  Prestige classes are cool, but they should be an option that is right in line with the power level of a character that chooses to stick with their base class.  3e flubbed this part of things really badly.  
 I thought prestige classes are a great idea. You just do not need 9 million of them and they do not need to be better than bases classes. In SWSE for example after taking them my players often pick up extra levels of ormal classes for the feats.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

D&D as an umbrella brand beneath which they release multiple systems:

D&D Saga
D&D Classic
4.5E
ect... 


The first thing WotC did upon buying the failing TSR was end the split lines, combining Dragonlance Saga, Basic, and Advanced. As they were a huge mistake.
It dramatically hurts profits and turns them into their own competition. 

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

TSR actually ended basic as it was OOP when WoTC picked up TSR.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

One of my players lied to me egads. They misread the spell for 1d12.

 Ignore that comment. 




Hah! Throw a Call Lightning on his head as punishment!
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