Math behind worthless sneak attack

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Ok so say you have a Rogue using a 1d8 weapon and adding their dex modifier +5 to the damage so they end up getting 1d8 + 5 average 9.5. Now if they attack AC 15 they have +5 from dex and +1 from weapon attack to the attack roll at level 1. So they hit AC 15 on a 9 which is 55% hit and 5% crit. Advantage and Disadvantage effects on hit and crit chance can be found here. Sneak attack is an attack with disadvantage that deals an extra 1d6 at first level. So their DPR looks like this:

Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 13 is 4.6475 and 0.25% of 23.5 is 0.05875 for a total DPR of 4.70625

So 1st level Sneak Attack is literally worse than making a normal attack. Its much worse than making an attack with advantage. Once again I posit that the developers don't know the math of their own game...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Lets see if it gets better at higher levels where sneak attack goes up to 2d6:

3rd
Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 16.5 is 5.89875 and 0.25% of 29.5 is 0.07375 for a total DPR of 5.9725

Nope still worth less than a normal attack.

5th
Normal attack:  60% of 9.5 is 5.7 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.575
Advantage atk: 78% of 9.5 is 7.41 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 9.11625
Sneak Attack:   42% of 20 is 8.4 and 0.25% of 35.5 is 0.08875 for a total DPR of 8.48875

Ooh, so its finally better than a normal attack, but not better than just taking advantage.

7th
Normal attack:  60% of 9.5 is 5.7 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.575
Advantage atk: 78% of 9.5 is 7.41 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 9.11625
Sneak Attack:   42% of 23.5 is 9.87 and 0.25% of 41.5 is 0.10375 for a total DPR of 9.97375

At 7th its slightly better than an advantage attack.

So basically worthless as a class feature until level 7...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
You're considering Sneak Attack in a vaccuum, which is ignoring some very important factors, one of which is the fact that the Rogue is even capable of making a sneak attack in a vaccuum in the first place--that's new; to my knowledge, the Rogue has always relied on circumstantial conditions in order to set up a sneak attack.

Consider that Advantage and Disadvantage cancel each other out, and also consider the many, many ways the Rogue has to generate Advantage on his attack, including the fact that every single Rogue scheme has a way to do it baked in. 



Agree, the disadvantage sneak attack vs normal attack comparison is fair, but you should be comparing advantage normal attack vs sneak attack without disadvantage. While the math is likely out at first level, in the long run the damage scales fast enough that the lack of accuracy doesn't stop it being the better option than a weak normal attack.
Well, 55% of 13 is 7.15 plus 5% of 23.5 is 1.175 = 8.325 average at first level for sneak attack with no disadvantage. So it's still a tad behind just whacking them with advantage. I'm too lazy to do further math but presumably it gets better fairly quickly.

TLDR: If you already have advantage, it's probably worth using sneak attack against most enemies by third level. And you really ought to have advantage every round with the new schemes.
1st
Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 13 is 4.6475 and 0.25% of 23.5 is 0.05875 for a total DPR of 4.70625
Adv Sneak Atk: 55% of 13 is 7.15 and 5% of 23.5 is 1.175 for a total DPR of 8.325

So its still better even if you have advantage to just make a normal attack at 1st.

3rd
Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 16.5 is 5.89875 and 0.25% of 29.5 is 0.07375 for a total DPR of 5.9725
Adv Sneak Atk: 55% of 16.5 is 9.075 and 5% of 29.5 is 1.475 for a total DPR of 10.55

So if you have advantage it is actually ok to sneak attack at level 3 to get an extra point or two of average damage.

So don't bother using Sneak attack until level 3 just take the advantage attack. Then at level 3 if you have advantage go ahead and sneak attack, at level 7 you can sneak attack without advantage. Still shows they don't understand the math, it should be better at 1st level than just attacking with advantage...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Maybe they should take Assassinate from a previous packet, remove the stuff about the target needing to be unaware of you, and make that the new Sneak Attack?

Of course, the math of that is probably all jacked up too...
You're also comparing the results at a fixed AC. This is fine for non-advantage mechanics, but disadvantage and advantage don't scale linearly.
Here are the break-even points (the highest roll where if that roll is a hit you are better off using Sneak Attack, but if it would be a miss you are better off using a regular attack) for various levels:




























































LevelBreak Even Roll (With Disadvantage)Disadvantage Canceled Out
158
3814
51020
71220
91120
111320
131420
151420
171520
191420

. Still shows they don't understand the math, it should be better at 1st level than just attacking with advantage...Smile




Why?  That is your opinion.  And the fact that they disagree with that opinion (in fact, nothing in this thread) indicates that they don't understand the math.


Only that they came to a different conclusion than you did.


It is far more likely that they are well aware of the effect of sneak attack at level 1 and decided that they didn't mind it not having any 'advantage' because simple and elegant progressions of sneak attack damage was more important to the big picture than the size of the bonus at that level.


Now, I am a bit concerned with it at the high levels.  But since it all comes down to 'how often can the rogue get sneak attack' - the issues aren't mathematical. They have more to do with practical questions (how often can a treasure hunter rogue find a target with none of his allies adjacent to it; how often can a thief rogue find a target with at least one of his allies adjacent to it).  I think the answer is 'very often' - and thus I have concerns.  But they aren't driven by pure math.


And they don't, in any way, indicate that the designers fail to understand the math of the game (despite your persistant statements to the contrary).

And the irony is that - despite your loud and thoroughly debunked statement that sneak attack is worthless - the real concern is that it might be too powerful at high levels (although I have not yet done the math to find out).


Carl              

In case anyone was wondering, here is a comparison of regular attack vs sneak attack vs a hypothetical Greatsword user with full (x5) Deadly Strike progression but no other features. The tables assume no other source of advantage.

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No Advantage











































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































Level 20
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
119.2563.62539.2
218.32557.4337537.325
317.451.5635.45
416.47546.0037533.575
515.5540.76531.7
614.62535.8437529.825
713.731.2427.95
812.77526.9537526.075
911.8522.98524.2
1010.92519.3337522.325
11101620.45
129.07512.9837518.575
138.1510.28516.7
147.2257.9037514.825
156.35.8412.95
165.3754.0937511.075
174.452.6659.2
183.5251.553757.325
192.60.765.45
201.6750.283753.575
Level 1
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.913.0262512.1
29.42511.7587511.525
38.9510.5562510.95
48.4759.4187510.375
588.346259.8
67.5257.338759.225
77.056.396258.65
86.5755.518758.075
96.14.706257.5
105.6253.958756.925
115.153.276256.35
124.6752.658755.775
134.22.106255.2
143.7251.618754.625
153.251.196254.05
162.7750.838753.475
172.30.546252.9
181.8250.318752.325
191.350.156251.75
200.8750.058751.175
Level 3
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.916.532512.1
29.42514.9237511.525
38.9513.397510.95
48.47511.9537510.375
5810.59259.8
67.5259.313759.225
77.058.11758.65
86.5757.003758.075
96.15.97257.5
105.6255.023756.925
115.154.15756.35
124.6753.373755.775
134.22.67255.2
143.7252.053754.625
153.251.51754.05
162.7751.063753.475
172.30.69252.9
181.8250.403752.325
191.350.19751.75
200.8750.073751.175
Level 5
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.920.0387518.875
29.42518.0887517.975
38.9516.2387517.075
48.47514.4887516.175
5812.8387515.275
67.52511.2887514.375
77.059.8387513.475
86.5758.4887512.575
96.17.2387511.675
105.6256.0887510.775
115.155.038759.875
124.6754.088758.975
134.23.238758.075
143.7252.488757.175
153.251.838756.275
162.7751.288755.375
172.30.838754.475
181.8250.488753.575
191.350.238752.675
200.8750.088751.775
Level 7
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.923.54518.875
29.42521.2537517.975
38.9519.0817.075
48.47517.0237516.175
5815.08515.275
67.52513.2637514.375
77.0511.5613.475
86.5759.9737512.575
96.18.50511.675
105.6257.1537510.775
115.155.929.875
124.6754.803758.975
134.23.8058.075
143.7252.923757.175
153.252.166.275
162.7751.513755.375
172.30.9854.475
181.8250.573753.575
191.350.282.675
200.8750.103751.775
Level 9
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57531.5618.875
213.87528.4887517.975
313.17525.57517.075
412.47522.8187516.175
511.77520.2215.275
611.07517.7787514.375
710.37515.49513.475
89.67513.3687512.575
98.97511.411.675
108.2759.5887510.775
117.5757.9359.875
126.8756.438758.975
136.1755.18.075
145.4753.918757.175
154.7752.8956.275
164.0752.028755.375
173.3751.324.475
182.6750.768753.575
191.9750.3752.675
201.2750.138751.775
Level 11
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57541.0812525.65
213.87537.0837524.425
313.17533.2912523.2
412.47529.7037521.975
511.77526.3212520.75
611.07523.1437519.525
710.37520.1712518.3
89.67517.4037517.075
98.97514.8412515.85
108.27512.4837514.625
117.57510.3312513.4
126.8758.3837512.175
136.1756.6412510.95
145.4755.103759.725
154.7753.771258.5
164.0752.643757.275
173.3751.721256.05
182.6751.003754.825
191.9750.491253.6
201.2750.183752.375
Level 13
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57545.5925.65
213.87541.1537524.425
313.17536.94523.2
412.47532.9637521.975
511.77529.2120.75
611.07525.6837519.525
710.37522.38518.3
89.67519.3137517.075
98.97516.4715.85
108.27513.8537514.625
117.57511.46513.4
126.8759.3037512.175
136.1757.3710.95
145.4755.663759.725
154.7754.1858.5
164.0752.933757.275
173.3751.916.05
182.6751.113754.825
191.9750.5453.6
201.2750.203752.375
Level 15
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57550.0987532.425
213.87545.2237530.875
313.17540.5987529.325
412.47536.2237527.775
511.77532.0987526.225
611.07528.2237524.675
710.37524.5987523.125
89.67521.2237521.575
98.97518.0987520.025
108.27515.2237518.475
117.57512.5987516.925
126.87510.2237515.375
136.1758.0987513.825
145.4756.2237512.275
154.7754.5987510.725
164.0753.223759.175
173.3752.098757.625
182.6751.223756.075
191.9750.598754.525
201.2750.223752.975
Level 17
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57554.607532.425
213.87549.2937530.875
313.17544.252529.325
412.47539.4837527.775
511.77534.987526.225
611.07530.7637524.675
710.37526.812523.125
89.67523.1337521.575
98.97519.727520.025
108.27516.5937518.475
117.57513.732516.925
126.87511.1437515.375
136.1758.827513.825
145.4756.7837512.275
154.7755.012510.725
164.0753.513759.175
173.3752.28757.625
182.6751.333756.075
191.9750.65254.525
201.2750.243752.975
Level 19
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
119.2563.62532.425
218.32557.4337530.875
317.451.5629.325
416.47546.0037527.775
515.5540.76526.225
614.62535.8437524.675
713.731.2423.125
812.77526.9537521.575
911.8522.98520.025
1010.92519.3337518.475
11101616.925
129.07512.9837515.375
138.1510.28513.825
147.2257.9037512.275
156.35.8410.725
165.3754.093759.175
174.452.6657.625
183.5251.553756.075
192.60.764.525
201.6750.283752.975

 
And the tables that do assume a source of advantage (even for the greatsword user).

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Level 20
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
119.96256640.815
219.9162562.82540.72125
319.777559.6540.44
419.5462556.47539.97125
519.222553.339.315
618.8062550.12538.47125
718.297546.9537.44
817.6962543.77536.22125
917.002540.634.815
1016.2162537.42533.22125
1115.337534.2531.44
1214.3662531.07529.47125
1313.302527.927.315
1412.1462524.72524.97125
1510.897521.5522.44
169.5562518.37519.72125
178.122515.216.815
186.5962512.02513.72125
194.97758.8510.44
203.266255.6756.97125
Level 1
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
110.2813.52512.67
210.2562512.87512.64125
310.18512.22512.555
410.0662511.57512.41125
59.910.92512.21
69.6862510.27511.95125
79.4259.62511.635
89.116258.97511.26125
98.768.32510.83
108.356257.67510.34125
117.9057.0259.795
127.406256.3759.19125
136.865.7258.53
146.266255.0757.81125
155.6254.4257.035
164.936253.7756.20125
174.23.1255.31
183.416252.4754.36125
192.5851.8253.355
201.706251.1752.29125
Level 3
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
110.2817.1512.67
210.2562516.32512.64125
310.18515.512.555
410.0662514.67512.41125
59.913.8512.21
69.6862513.02511.95125
79.42512.211.635
89.1162511.37511.26125
98.7610.5510.83
108.356259.72510.34125
117.9058.99.795
127.406258.0759.19125
136.867.258.53
146.266256.4257.81125
155.6255.67.035
164.936254.7756.20125
174.23.955.31
183.416253.1254.36125
192.5852.33.355
201.706251.4752.29125
Level 5
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
110.2820.77519.70625
210.2562519.77519.66125
310.18518.77519.52625
410.0662517.77519.30125
59.916.77518.98625
69.6862515.77518.58125
79.42514.77518.08625
89.1162513.77517.50125
98.7612.77516.82625
108.3562511.77516.06125
117.90510.77515.20625
127.406259.77514.26125
136.868.77513.22625
146.266257.77512.10125
155.6256.77510.88625
164.936255.7759.58125
174.24.7758.18625
183.416253.7756.70125
192.5852.7755.12625
201.706251.7753.46125
Level 7
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
110.2824.419.70625
210.2562523.22519.66125
310.18522.0519.52625
410.0662520.87519.30125
59.919.718.98625
69.6862518.52518.58125
79.42517.3518.08625
89.1162516.17517.50125
98.761516.82625
108.3562513.82516.06125
117.90512.6515.20625
127.4062511.47514.26125
136.8610.313.22625
146.266259.12512.10125
155.6257.9510.88625
164.936256.7759.58125
174.25.68.18625
183.416254.4256.70125
192.5853.255.12625
201.706252.0753.46125
Level 9
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
115.1212532.719.70625
215.0862531.12519.66125
314.9812529.5519.52625
414.8062527.97519.30125
514.5612526.418.98625
614.2462524.82518.58125
713.8612523.2518.08625
813.4062521.67517.50125
912.8812520.116.82625
1012.2862518.52516.06125
1111.6212516.9515.20625
1210.8862515.37514.26125
1310.0812513.813.22625
149.2062512.22512.10125
158.2612510.6510.88625
167.246259.0759.58125
176.161257.58.18625
185.006255.9256.70125
193.781254.355.12625
202.486252.7753.46125
Level 11
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
115.1212542.62526.7425
215.0862540.57526.68125
314.9812538.52526.4975
414.8062536.47526.19125
514.5612534.42525.7625
614.2462532.37525.21125
713.8612530.32524.5375
813.4062528.27523.74125
912.8812526.22522.8225
1012.2862524.17521.78125
1111.6212522.12520.6175
1210.8862520.07519.33125
1310.0812518.02517.9225
149.2062515.97516.39125
158.2612513.92514.7375
167.2462511.87512.96125
176.161259.82511.0625
185.006257.7759.04125
193.781255.7256.8975
202.486253.6754.63125
Level 13
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
115.1212547.326.7425
215.0862545.02526.68125
314.9812542.7526.4975
414.8062540.47526.19125
514.5612538.225.7625
614.2462535.92525.21125
713.8612533.6524.5375
813.4062531.37523.74125
912.8812529.122.8225
1012.2862526.82521.78125
1111.6212524.5520.6175
1210.8862522.27519.33125
1310.081252017.9225
149.2062517.72516.39125
158.2612515.4514.7375
167.2462513.17512.96125
176.1612510.911.0625
185.006258.6259.04125
193.781256.356.8975
202.486254.0754.63125
Level 15
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
115.1212551.97533.77875
215.0862549.47533.70125
314.9812546.97533.46875
414.8062544.47533.08125
514.5612541.97532.53875
614.2462539.47531.84125
713.8612536.97530.98875
813.4062534.47529.98125
912.8812531.97528.81875
1012.2862529.47527.50125
1111.6212526.97526.02875
1210.8862524.47524.40125
1310.0812521.97522.61875
149.2062519.47520.68125
158.2612516.97518.58875
167.2462514.47516.34125
176.1612511.97513.93875
185.006259.47511.38125
193.781256.9758.66875
202.486254.4755.80125
Level 17
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
115.1212556.6533.77875
215.0862553.92533.70125
314.9812551.233.46875
414.8062548.47533.08125
514.5612545.7532.53875
614.2462543.02531.84125
713.8612540.330.98875
813.4062537.57529.98125
912.8812534.8528.81875
1012.2862532.12527.50125
1111.6212529.426.02875
1210.8862526.67524.40125
1310.0812523.9522.61875
149.2062521.22520.68125
158.2612518.518.58875
167.2462515.77516.34125
176.1612513.0513.93875
185.0062510.32511.38125
193.781257.68.66875
202.486254.8755.80125
Level 19
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
119.96256633.77875
219.9162562.82533.70125
319.777559.6533.46875
419.5462556.47533.08125
519.222553.332.53875
618.8062550.12531.84125
718.297546.9530.98875
817.6962543.77529.98125
917.002540.628.81875
1016.2162537.42527.50125
1115.337534.2526.02875
1214.3662531.07524.40125
1313.302527.922.61875
1412.1462524.72520.68125
1510.897521.5518.58875
169.5562518.37516.34125
178.122515.213.93875
186.5962512.02511.38125
194.97758.858.66875
203.266255.6755.80125


 
Speaking as a pillar of the Rogue community, I don't really give two figs about DPR.  If I don't think I can take someone in a fight, which is a lot, I look for something heavy to drop on them.  It's about how creatively you can use your skills and environment, not probability.  Having said that, I was finally over not having sneak attack and I feel like a cleaned up addict being given heroin again by my sponsor.

We do get that the intent of Sneak Attack is to use it with advantage so they cancel out right?

Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."

Nitpicking:
Hiting on a 9 makes it 60%, not 55%

Carry on 



55% hit and 5% crit = 60%...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
In case anyone was wondering, here is a comparison of regular attack vs sneak attack vs a hypothetical Greatsword user with full (x5) Deadly Strike progression but no other features. The tables assume no other source of advantage.

Show

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Level 20
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
119.2563.62539.2
218.32557.4337537.325
317.451.5635.45
416.47546.0037533.575
515.5540.76531.7
614.62535.8437529.825
713.731.2427.95
812.77526.9537526.075
911.8522.98524.2
1010.92519.3337522.325
11101620.45
129.07512.9837518.575
138.1510.28516.7
147.2257.9037514.825
156.35.8412.95
165.3754.0937511.075
174.452.6659.2
183.5251.553757.325
192.60.765.45
201.6750.283753.575
Level 1
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.913.0262512.1
29.42511.7587511.525
38.9510.5562510.95
48.4759.4187510.375
588.346259.8
67.5257.338759.225
77.056.396258.65
86.5755.518758.075
96.14.706257.5
105.6253.958756.925
115.153.276256.35
124.6752.658755.775
134.22.106255.2
143.7251.618754.625
153.251.196254.05
162.7750.838753.475
172.30.546252.9
181.8250.318752.325
191.350.156251.75
200.8750.058751.175
Level 3
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.916.532512.1
29.42514.9237511.525
38.9513.397510.95
48.47511.9537510.375
5810.59259.8
67.5259.313759.225
77.058.11758.65
86.5757.003758.075
96.15.97257.5
105.6255.023756.925
115.154.15756.35
124.6753.373755.775
134.22.67255.2
143.7252.053754.625
153.251.51754.05
162.7751.063753.475
172.30.69252.9
181.8250.403752.325
191.350.19751.75
200.8750.073751.175
Level 5
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.920.0387518.875
29.42518.0887517.975
38.9516.2387517.075
48.47514.4887516.175
5812.8387515.275
67.52511.2887514.375
77.059.8387513.475
86.5758.4887512.575
96.17.2387511.675
105.6256.0887510.775
115.155.038759.875
124.6754.088758.975
134.23.238758.075
143.7252.488757.175
153.251.838756.275
162.7751.288755.375
172.30.838754.475
181.8250.488753.575
191.350.238752.675
200.8750.088751.775
Level 7
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
19.923.54518.875
29.42521.2537517.975
38.9519.0817.075
48.47517.0237516.175
5815.08515.275
67.52513.2637514.375
77.0511.5613.475
86.5759.9737512.575
96.18.50511.675
105.6257.1537510.775
115.155.929.875
124.6754.803758.975
134.23.8058.075
143.7252.923757.175
153.252.166.275
162.7751.513755.375
172.30.9854.475
181.8250.573753.575
191.350.282.675
200.8750.103751.775
Level 9
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57531.5618.875
213.87528.4887517.975
313.17525.57517.075
412.47522.8187516.175
511.77520.2215.275
611.07517.7787514.375
710.37515.49513.475
89.67513.3687512.575
98.97511.411.675
108.2759.5887510.775
117.5757.9359.875
126.8756.438758.975
136.1755.18.075
145.4753.918757.175
154.7752.8956.275
164.0752.028755.375
173.3751.324.475
182.6750.768753.575
191.9750.3752.675
201.2750.138751.775
Level 11
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57541.0812525.65
213.87537.0837524.425
313.17533.2912523.2
412.47529.7037521.975
511.77526.3212520.75
611.07523.1437519.525
710.37520.1712518.3
89.67517.4037517.075
98.97514.8412515.85
108.27512.4837514.625
117.57510.3312513.4
126.8758.3837512.175
136.1756.6412510.95
145.4755.103759.725
154.7753.771258.5
164.0752.643757.275
173.3751.721256.05
182.6751.003754.825
191.9750.491253.6
201.2750.183752.375
Level 13
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57545.5925.65
213.87541.1537524.425
313.17536.94523.2
412.47532.9637521.975
511.77529.2120.75
611.07525.6837519.525
710.37522.38518.3
89.67519.3137517.075
98.97516.4715.85
108.27513.8537514.625
117.57511.46513.4
126.8759.3037512.175
136.1757.3710.95
145.4755.663759.725
154.7754.1858.5
164.0752.933757.275
173.3751.916.05
182.6751.113754.825
191.9750.5453.6
201.2750.203752.375
Level 15
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57550.0987532.425
213.87545.2237530.875
313.17540.5987529.325
412.47536.2237527.775
511.77532.0987526.225
611.07528.2237524.675
710.37524.5987523.125
89.67521.2237521.575
98.97518.0987520.025
108.27515.2237518.475
117.57512.5987516.925
126.87510.2237515.375
136.1758.0987513.825
145.4756.2237512.275
154.7754.5987510.725
164.0753.223759.175
173.3752.098757.625
182.6751.223756.075
191.9750.598754.525
201.2750.223752.975
Level 17
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
114.57554.607532.425
213.87549.2937530.875
313.17544.252529.325
412.47539.4837527.775
511.77534.987526.225
611.07530.7637524.675
710.37526.812523.125
89.67523.1337521.575
98.97519.727520.025
108.27516.5937518.475
117.57513.732516.925
126.87511.1437515.375
136.1758.827513.825
145.4756.7837512.275
154.7755.012510.725
164.0753.513759.175
173.3752.28757.625
182.6751.333756.075
191.9750.65254.525
201.2750.243752.975
Level 19
Roll RequiredRegular AttackSneak AttackGreatsword
119.2563.62532.425
218.32557.4337530.875
317.451.5629.325
416.47546.0037527.775
515.5540.76526.225
614.62535.8437524.675
713.731.2423.125
812.77526.9537521.575
911.8522.98520.025
1010.92519.3337518.475
11101616.925
129.07512.9837515.375
138.1510.28513.825
147.2257.9037512.275
156.35.8410.725
165.3754.093759.175
174.452.6657.625
183.5251.553756.075
192.60.764.525
201.6750.283752.975

 



I don't get it. Obviously if you hit on a 1 sneak attack is pretty awesome because the disadvantage can't make you miss... but how on earth do you get 63.625 damage? shouldn't that be 95% x (13d6 + 4 = 49.5) + 5% x (13x6 + 4 + 1d6 = 85.5) = 51.3 ? Slightly higher if you're using a +5 stat at lvl 20, but not in the 60s.

Note that I ignored natural 1s being always a miss anyway (so the roll required table shouldn't even have an entry for 1), but that will affect them both anyway.

Edit: nm, forgot sneak attack jumped to d8s later on.
Although a straight "number required to hit" comparison isn't necessarily the most realistic approach, since by lvl 20 the fighter has an extra +2 to hit over the rogue, so you're actually comparing different lines of the table.
Although a straight "number required to hit" comparison isn't necessarily the most realistic approach, since by lvl 20 the fighter has an extra +2 to hit over the rogue, so you're actually comparing different lines of the table.



The table wasn't really meant for comparing the rogue against other classes (too many mechanics complicate matters). The Greatsword line was just there for some context - to show what a 'standard' melee combatant would do against someone as difficult for them to hit. You're right, though, the Greatsword fighter would look be looking at a different to-hit against the same opponent.

For what it's worth, assuming advantage: if the level 20 rogue can hit on a 10, they will do more damage sneak attacking than the 'warrior' who hits on an 8.
Although a straight "number required to hit" comparison isn't necessarily the most realistic approach, since by lvl 20 the fighter has an extra +2 to hit over the rogue, so you're actually comparing different lines of the table.



The table wasn't really meant for comparing the rogue against other classes (too many mechanics complicate matters). The Greatsword line was just there for some context - to show what a 'standard' melee combatant would do against someone as difficult for them to hit. You're right, though, the Greatsword fighter would look be looking at a different to-hit against the same opponent.

For what it's worth, assuming advantage: if the level 20 rogue can hit on a 10, they will do more damage sneak attacking than the 'warrior' who hits on an 8.




It also is important to take into context the fact that it is FAR easier for a rogue to generate advantage than for a fighter to do the same. This time the fighter doesn't even have feats that he can use to generate advantage reliably (that I have read so far--admittedly I am still reading through everything). The rogue can get advantage on every attach they make from level 1-20 (giving it up to make sneak attacks, as advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out). So, the numbers that will really be getting compared most of the time will be sneak attack with advantage to cancel out the attack’s disadvantage and a greatsword with no advantage. 

That means that even at level 1, with sneak attack a rogue is comparing favorably in damage dealt to a fighter (giving the assumption that a rogue will have advantage and a fighter will not, which will usually be the case). 

"Please note that, like the monk, the rogue is in transition and will receive further revision in a subsequent release."

Something to remember. Considering our party is a Monk, a Rogue and Barbarian Yell  
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?



Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?



Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.



Sneak Attack doesnt say it requires an action

So I was wondering if it was legal to do a normal swing which would swing both weapons, have your main hand deal normal swing damage, and your offhand that cant apply strength/dex bonus to damage etc, use sneak attack
Speaking as a pillar of the Rogue community, I don't really give two figs about DPR.  If I don't think I can take someone in a fight, which is a lot, I look for something heavy to drop on them.  It's about how creatively you can use your skills and environment, not probability.



"You say the mechanic doesn't work properly? Well, why are you using your abilities anyway, I just like to be CrEaTiVe, man!"

I'm still amazed at the amount of people who are not only fine with, but ENCOURAGE the devs to make a poorly designed game because they will just ignore the rules that they paid for anyway, because rules are for squares, man. I do think creative problem solving is an important part of D&D and should be encouraged, but it should not be encouraged by making your standard abilities not work properly. If a mechanic does not actually work as it should and if it therefore does not help reinforce the themes of a characterr, it should simply be removed.

NOTE: I am not talking specificly about Sneak Attack, or any other mechanic for that matter. I am still just baffled at the number of people who respond to any criticism of game mechanics with "They shouldn't fix anything, just ignore them and use your ImAgInAtIoN!"
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?



Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.



Sneak Attack doesnt say it requires an action

So I was wondering if it was legal to do a normal swing which would swing both weapons, have your main hand deal normal swing damage, and your offhand that cant apply strength/dex bonus to damage etc, use sneak attack



It looks like you could, on glancing at the rules quickly. You can only use sneak attack once per turn (so only on one attack roll of your two for TWF) but it doesn't seem to require an action, so I don't see why you couldn't normal attack with main hand and SA with offhand.

It's also worth noting that most of the advantage mechanics are also once per turn, so you could also only advantage one of your two attacks, and it doesn't take an action either.

There's a simple fix for this, I think. If the target of the attack is unaware of the rogue, he/she does not need to trade advantage.  Presumably the rogue has time in this scenario to line up a strike/shot on vitals. Realistically, he has advantage AND his (defenseless) enemy has disadvantage in this scenario. When this is not the case, it's fluffed as trying to line up a shot/strike on the vitals in active combat (of COURSE he would gain disadvantage/lose advantage).

Another, slightly more powerful option (also more fair, if we assume that not all rogues are stealthy killers), is to say that a rogue use sneak attack whenever he would have advantage, without penalty, but can also opt to accept disadvantage, when things are more even, to set up a sneak attack in normal combat.
Don't think of sneak attack as worsenning your chance to hit for extra damage, instead think of sneak attack as finding a use for multiple stacks of advantage.

Rogues can get advantage much easier than other classes. So if you are playing a rogue your goal is to get advantage from two sources at one time so that you can use sneak attack without penalty. I like it working this way.
I posted this on another thread, but I think it fits here: Rogue is a mess now.

It's generic and it's not really good at anything. Its abilities don't even complement one another, like the 3.5 monk, or a badly multiclassed character. It needs fixing because, as is, the rogue has no role. It's not a damage dealer, it's skills can be duplicated by literally any other class, it's dangerously squishy, the only abilities they have that actually protect them from damage only work if something allows a dexterity saving throw, and it doesn't have spells.

1. Backstab is basically just flanking and this makes no sense for an ASSASSIN who, one would think, will be working alone.

2. Skill mastery is gone now, meaning rogues have no real advantage on skill checks over other classes.

3. Sneak Attack is a non-feature until higher levels (Rogues now have exactly ONE extra way to gain advantage).

4. Thief, somehow, doesn't get pick pockets, but Trickster does?

5. They seem to have just rolled a percent-die to see which specialties get advantage when alone, and which get advantage from flanking. It feels generic, and it feels like it's situationally dependent, which I don't like AT ALL.

6. I also don't like the way Blindsense is written. Abilities that simply negate (completely) other abilities are a bad idea, especially at mid-levels in a base class. So, nobody can hide when a rogue's around? Lame.
I posted this on another thread, but I think it fits here: Rogue is a mess now.

It's generic and it's not really good at anything. Its abilities don't even complement one another, like the 3.5 monk, or a badly multiclassed character. It needs fixing because, as is, the rogue has no role. It's not a damage dealer, it's skills can be duplicated by literally any other class, it's dangerously squishy, the only abilities they have that actually protect them from damage only work if something allows a dexterity saving throw, and it doesn't have spells.

1. Backstab is basically just flanking and this makes no sense for an ASSASSIN who, one would think, will be working alone.

2. Skill mastery is gone now, meaning rogues have no real advantage on skill checks over other classes.

3. Sneak Attack is a non-feature until higher levels (Rogues now have exactly ONE extra way to gain advantage).

4. Thief, somehow, doesn't get pick pockets, but Trickster does?

5. They seem to have just rolled a percent-die to see which specialties get advantage when alone, and which get advantage from flanking. It feels generic, and it feels like it's situationally dependent, which I don't like AT ALL.

6. I also don't like the way Blindsense is written. Abilities that simply negate (completely) other abilities are a bad idea, especially at mid-levels in a base class. So, nobody can hide when a rogue's around? Lame.



Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Can you give me your link to the other Rogue thread?


Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."

It was actually posted on a thread about the new release packet ("thoughts on....."). Someone else pointed out that the "Read First" document indicated that the Rogue and Monk are in transition and incomplete, however. So, I guess that's somewhat comforting. But I liked last release's Rogue. I didn't see a problem with what they could do and I can't imagine why it needed nerfed.
Can you give me your link to the other Rogue thread?


It is more of a General Thoughts thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
In the 'Read First' file they do say the Rogue and Monk are still being tweaked.
We can all read into something and not know how it plays out. I discovered this with each of the other packets. Playtest it, then our comments will have some basis to them. Unfortunately I will not have to group back together for two weeks!
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?



Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.



Sneak Attack doesnt say it requires an action

So I was wondering if it was legal to do a normal swing which would swing both weapons, have your main hand deal normal swing damage, and your offhand that cant apply strength/dex bonus to damage etc, use sneak attack



This is totally viable, and with the Relentless feat, it is actually a somewhat interesting tactic.  If you can't fulfill the conditions for your Scheme Advantage-Giver ability, you can roll the first attack and, if it misses, you get advantage on the second.

So against a target that you only have a 50% hit chance on, you have a 50% chance to ignore the disadvantage on your second attack.
Effectively this means that on that target you have a :
25% chance to apply sneak attack without relentless 
37.5% chance to apply sneak attack with relentless.

Nowhere near game breaking, but still pretty useful, and if you do get the advantage on your first attack and attempt a Sneak Attack, you still have a pretty good chance of applying Deadly Strike if your sneak attack misses.

2. Skill mastery is gone now, meaning rogues have no real advantage on skill checks over other classes.



Um, rogues get 2 bonus skills over the other classes. Sometimes more (if one of their feats grants them extra skills too). They also get to add an extra +1d6 (on top of their skill die) to two of the skills they gain. So, they do have an advantage. 

3. Sneak Attack is a non-feature until higher levels (Rogues now have exactly ONE extra way to gain advantage).



That isn't true. It isn't worth using when you don't have advantage until higher levels. But, it is very easy to gain advantage. When you have advantage, giving it up is often worth it even at lower levels. It quickly always becomes worth it. 


What people are not considering is being granted two instances of advantage on an attack.
Each rogue scheme has a built in way to get advantage easily which cancels the downside of sneak attack.
However no one has considered if you were hidden before attacking, having ambush or first strike feats, status ailments, or various other ways to get advantage.  Added to backstab or isolated strike... you get a sneak attack with advantage and a huge boost in dps.  
As for sneaking with a 18 in dex at level one an assassin can get a d20 (min 10 from skill focus(sneak)) + d6 (skill die) + d6 (assassin mastery) + 4 (dex bonus). 
What people are not considering is being granted two instances of advantage on an attack.
Each rogue scheme has a built in way to get advantage easily which cancels the downside of sneak attack.
However no one has considered if you were hidden before attacking, having ambush or first strike feats, status ailments, or various other ways to get advantage.  Added to backstab or isolated strike... you get a sneak attack with advantage and a huge boost in dps.  
As for sneaking with a 18 in dex at level one an assassin can get a d20 (min 10 from skill focus(sneak)) + d6 (skill die) + d6 (assassin mastery) + 4 (dex bonus). 

You can't do this; advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out.  It doesn't matter how many sources of each you have.

What people are not considering is being granted two instances of advantage on an attack.
Each rogue scheme has a built in way to get advantage easily which cancels the downside of sneak attack.
However no one has considered if you were hidden before attacking, having ambush or first strike feats, status ailments, or various other ways to get advantage.  Added to backstab or isolated strike... you get a sneak attack with advantage and a huge boost in dps.  
As for sneaking with a 18 in dex at level one an assassin can get a d20 (min 10 from skill focus(sneak)) + d6 (skill die) + d6 (assassin mastery) + 4 (dex bonus). 

You can't do this; advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out.  It doesn't matter how many sources of each you have.


I also don't know how to get Dex 18 at l1 now that the old Human +2 is gone.
I understood advantage and disadvantage differently, I have been playing it with each instance cancelling each other out individually than just in general. Rereading it though, that is not what they intended I notice.

As for Dex 18, you have to realize that it is easy to roll one 16 and get 1 from your race and one from your class.  Even if you use the pregen stats and get a Dex 17 at level one that is only the difference of +1.  With a sneak result range at level one of 15-35.