## Math behind worthless sneak attack

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lokiare
Joined Dec 1969
Ok so say you have a Rogue using a 1d8 weapon and adding their dex modifier +5 to the damage so they end up getting 1d8 + 5 average 9.5. Now if they attack AC 15 they have +5 from dex and +1 from weapon attack to the attack roll at level 1. So they hit AC 15 on a 9 which is 55% hit and 5% crit. Advantage and Disadvantage effects on hit and crit chance can be found here. Sneak attack is an attack with disadvantage that deals an extra 1d6 at first level. So their DPR looks like this:

Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 13 is 4.6475 and 0.25% of 23.5 is 0.05875 for a total DPR of 4.70625

So 1st level Sneak Attack is literally worse than making a normal attack. Its much worse than making an attack with advantage. Once again I posit that the developers don't know the math of their own game...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
lokiare
Joined Dec 1969
Lets see if it gets better at higher levels where sneak attack goes up to 2d6:

3rd
Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 16.5 is 5.89875 and 0.25% of 29.5 is 0.07375 for a total DPR of 5.9725

Nope still worth less than a normal attack.

5th
Normal attack:  60% of 9.5 is 5.7 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.575
Advantage atk: 78% of 9.5 is 7.41 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 9.11625
Sneak Attack:   42% of 20 is 8.4 and 0.25% of 35.5 is 0.08875 for a total DPR of 8.48875

Ooh, so its finally better than a normal attack, but not better than just taking advantage.

7th
Normal attack:  60% of 9.5 is 5.7 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.575
Advantage atk: 78% of 9.5 is 7.41 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 9.11625
Sneak Attack:   42% of 23.5 is 9.87 and 0.25% of 41.5 is 0.10375 for a total DPR of 9.97375

At 7th its slightly better than an advantage attack.

So basically worthless as a class feature until level 7...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Kalranya
Joined Dec 1969
You're considering Sneak Attack in a vaccuum, which is ignoring some very important factors, one of which is the fact that the Rogue is even capable of making a sneak attack in a vaccuum in the first place--that's new; to my knowledge, the Rogue has always relied on circumstantial conditions in order to set up a sneak attack.

Consider that Advantage and Disadvantage cancel each other out, and also consider the many, many ways the Rogue has to generate Advantage on his attack, including the fact that every single Rogue scheme has a way to do it baked in.

Souffle
Joined Dec 1969
Agree, the disadvantage sneak attack vs normal attack comparison is fair, but you should be comparing advantage normal attack vs sneak attack without disadvantage. While the math is likely out at first level, in the long run the damage scales fast enough that the lack of accuracy doesn't stop it being the better option than a weak normal attack.
Well, 55% of 13 is 7.15 plus 5% of 23.5 is 1.175 = 8.325 average at first level for sneak attack with no disadvantage. So it's still a tad behind just whacking them with advantage. I'm too lazy to do further math but presumably it gets better fairly quickly.

TLDR: If you already have advantage, it's probably worth using sneak attack against most enemies by third level. And you really ought to have advantage every round with the new schemes.
lokiare
Joined Dec 1969
1st
Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 13 is 4.6475 and 0.25% of 23.5 is 0.05875 for a total DPR of 4.70625
Adv Sneak Atk: 55% of 13 is 7.15 and 5% of 23.5 is 1.175 for a total DPR of 8.325

So its still better even if you have advantage to just make a normal attack at 1st.

3rd
Normal attack:  55% of 9.5 is 5.225 and 5% of 17.5 is 0.875 for a total DPR of 6.1
Advantage atk: 74.25% of 9.5 is 7.05375 and 9.75% of 17.5 is 1.70625 for a total DPR of 8.76
Sneak Attack:   35.75% of 16.5 is 5.89875 and 0.25% of 29.5 is 0.07375 for a total DPR of 5.9725
Adv Sneak Atk: 55% of 16.5 is 9.075 and 5% of 29.5 is 1.475 for a total DPR of 10.55

So if you have advantage it is actually ok to sneak attack at level 3 to get an extra point or two of average damage.

So don't bother using Sneak attack until level 3 just take the advantage attack. Then at level 3 if you have advantage go ahead and sneak attack, at level 7 you can sneak attack without advantage. Still shows they don't understand the math, it should be better at 1st level than just attacking with advantage...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Maybe they should take Assassinate from a previous packet, remove the stuff about the target needing to be unaware of you, and make that the new Sneak Attack?

Of course, the math of that is probably all jacked up too...
Da_Craw
Joined Dec 1969
You're also comparing the results at a fixed AC. This is fine for non-advantage mechanics, but disadvantage and advantage don't scale linearly.
Here are the break-even points (the highest roll where if that roll is a hit you are better off using Sneak Attack, but if it would be a miss you are better off using a regular attack) for various levels:

 Level Break Even Roll (With Disadvantage) Disadvantage Canceled Out 1 5 8 3 8 14 5 10 20 7 12 20 9 11 20 11 13 20 13 14 20 15 14 20 17 15 20 19 14 20
CarlT
Joined Dec 1969

. Still shows they don't understand the math, it should be better at 1st level than just attacking with advantage...

Why?  That is your opinion.  And the fact that they disagree with that opinion (in fact, nothing in this thread) indicates that they don't understand the math.

Only that they came to a different conclusion than you did.

It is far more likely that they are well aware of the effect of sneak attack at level 1 and decided that they didn't mind it not having any 'advantage' because simple and elegant progressions of sneak attack damage was more important to the big picture than the size of the bonus at that level.

Now, I am a bit concerned with it at the high levels.  But since it all comes down to 'how often can the rogue get sneak attack' - the issues aren't mathematical. They have more to do with practical questions (how often can a treasure hunter rogue find a target with none of his allies adjacent to it; how often can a thief rogue find a target with at least one of his allies adjacent to it).  I think the answer is 'very often' - and thus I have concerns.  But they aren't driven by pure math.

And they don't, in any way, indicate that the designers fail to understand the math of the game (despite your persistant statements to the contrary).

And the irony is that - despite your loud and thoroughly debunked statement that sneak attack is worthless - the real concern is that it might be too powerful at high levels (although I have not yet done the math to find out).

Carl

Da_Craw
Joined Dec 1969
In case anyone was wondering, here is a comparison of regular attack vs sneak attack vs a hypothetical Greatsword user with full (x5) Deadly Strike progression but no other features. The tables assume no other source of advantage.

Show

 Level 20 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 19.25 63.625 39.2 2 18.325 57.43375 37.325 3 17.4 51.56 35.45 4 16.475 46.00375 33.575 5 15.55 40.765 31.7 6 14.625 35.84375 29.825 7 13.7 31.24 27.95 8 12.775 26.95375 26.075 9 11.85 22.985 24.2 10 10.925 19.33375 22.325 11 10 16 20.45 12 9.075 12.98375 18.575 13 8.15 10.285 16.7 14 7.225 7.90375 14.825 15 6.3 5.84 12.95 16 5.375 4.09375 11.075 17 4.45 2.665 9.2 18 3.525 1.55375 7.325 19 2.6 0.76 5.45 20 1.675 0.28375 3.575 Level 1 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 13.02625 12.1 2 9.425 11.75875 11.525 3 8.95 10.55625 10.95 4 8.475 9.41875 10.375 5 8 8.34625 9.8 6 7.525 7.33875 9.225 7 7.05 6.39625 8.65 8 6.575 5.51875 8.075 9 6.1 4.70625 7.5 10 5.625 3.95875 6.925 11 5.15 3.27625 6.35 12 4.675 2.65875 5.775 13 4.2 2.10625 5.2 14 3.725 1.61875 4.625 15 3.25 1.19625 4.05 16 2.775 0.83875 3.475 17 2.3 0.54625 2.9 18 1.825 0.31875 2.325 19 1.35 0.15625 1.75 20 0.875 0.05875 1.175 Level 3 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 16.5325 12.1 2 9.425 14.92375 11.525 3 8.95 13.3975 10.95 4 8.475 11.95375 10.375 5 8 10.5925 9.8 6 7.525 9.31375 9.225 7 7.05 8.1175 8.65 8 6.575 7.00375 8.075 9 6.1 5.9725 7.5 10 5.625 5.02375 6.925 11 5.15 4.1575 6.35 12 4.675 3.37375 5.775 13 4.2 2.6725 5.2 14 3.725 2.05375 4.625 15 3.25 1.5175 4.05 16 2.775 1.06375 3.475 17 2.3 0.6925 2.9 18 1.825 0.40375 2.325 19 1.35 0.1975 1.75 20 0.875 0.07375 1.175 Level 5 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 20.03875 18.875 2 9.425 18.08875 17.975 3 8.95 16.23875 17.075 4 8.475 14.48875 16.175 5 8 12.83875 15.275 6 7.525 11.28875 14.375 7 7.05 9.83875 13.475 8 6.575 8.48875 12.575 9 6.1 7.23875 11.675 10 5.625 6.08875 10.775 11 5.15 5.03875 9.875 12 4.675 4.08875 8.975 13 4.2 3.23875 8.075 14 3.725 2.48875 7.175 15 3.25 1.83875 6.275 16 2.775 1.28875 5.375 17 2.3 0.83875 4.475 18 1.825 0.48875 3.575 19 1.35 0.23875 2.675 20 0.875 0.08875 1.775 Level 7 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 23.545 18.875 2 9.425 21.25375 17.975 3 8.95 19.08 17.075 4 8.475 17.02375 16.175 5 8 15.085 15.275 6 7.525 13.26375 14.375 7 7.05 11.56 13.475 8 6.575 9.97375 12.575 9 6.1 8.505 11.675 10 5.625 7.15375 10.775 11 5.15 5.92 9.875 12 4.675 4.80375 8.975 13 4.2 3.805 8.075 14 3.725 2.92375 7.175 15 3.25 2.16 6.275 16 2.775 1.51375 5.375 17 2.3 0.985 4.475 18 1.825 0.57375 3.575 19 1.35 0.28 2.675 20 0.875 0.10375 1.775 Level 9 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 31.56 18.875 2 13.875 28.48875 17.975 3 13.175 25.575 17.075 4 12.475 22.81875 16.175 5 11.775 20.22 15.275 6 11.075 17.77875 14.375 7 10.375 15.495 13.475 8 9.675 13.36875 12.575 9 8.975 11.4 11.675 10 8.275 9.58875 10.775 11 7.575 7.935 9.875 12 6.875 6.43875 8.975 13 6.175 5.1 8.075 14 5.475 3.91875 7.175 15 4.775 2.895 6.275 16 4.075 2.02875 5.375 17 3.375 1.32 4.475 18 2.675 0.76875 3.575 19 1.975 0.375 2.675 20 1.275 0.13875 1.775 Level 11 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 41.08125 25.65 2 13.875 37.08375 24.425 3 13.175 33.29125 23.2 4 12.475 29.70375 21.975 5 11.775 26.32125 20.75 6 11.075 23.14375 19.525 7 10.375 20.17125 18.3 8 9.675 17.40375 17.075 9 8.975 14.84125 15.85 10 8.275 12.48375 14.625 11 7.575 10.33125 13.4 12 6.875 8.38375 12.175 13 6.175 6.64125 10.95 14 5.475 5.10375 9.725 15 4.775 3.77125 8.5 16 4.075 2.64375 7.275 17 3.375 1.72125 6.05 18 2.675 1.00375 4.825 19 1.975 0.49125 3.6 20 1.275 0.18375 2.375 Level 13 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 45.59 25.65 2 13.875 41.15375 24.425 3 13.175 36.945 23.2 4 12.475 32.96375 21.975 5 11.775 29.21 20.75 6 11.075 25.68375 19.525 7 10.375 22.385 18.3 8 9.675 19.31375 17.075 9 8.975 16.47 15.85 10 8.275 13.85375 14.625 11 7.575 11.465 13.4 12 6.875 9.30375 12.175 13 6.175 7.37 10.95 14 5.475 5.66375 9.725 15 4.775 4.185 8.5 16 4.075 2.93375 7.275 17 3.375 1.91 6.05 18 2.675 1.11375 4.825 19 1.975 0.545 3.6 20 1.275 0.20375 2.375 Level 15 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 50.09875 32.425 2 13.875 45.22375 30.875 3 13.175 40.59875 29.325 4 12.475 36.22375 27.775 5 11.775 32.09875 26.225 6 11.075 28.22375 24.675 7 10.375 24.59875 23.125 8 9.675 21.22375 21.575 9 8.975 18.09875 20.025 10 8.275 15.22375 18.475 11 7.575 12.59875 16.925 12 6.875 10.22375 15.375 13 6.175 8.09875 13.825 14 5.475 6.22375 12.275 15 4.775 4.59875 10.725 16 4.075 3.22375 9.175 17 3.375 2.09875 7.625 18 2.675 1.22375 6.075 19 1.975 0.59875 4.525 20 1.275 0.22375 2.975 Level 17 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 54.6075 32.425 2 13.875 49.29375 30.875 3 13.175 44.2525 29.325 4 12.475 39.48375 27.775 5 11.775 34.9875 26.225 6 11.075 30.76375 24.675 7 10.375 26.8125 23.125 8 9.675 23.13375 21.575 9 8.975 19.7275 20.025 10 8.275 16.59375 18.475 11 7.575 13.7325 16.925 12 6.875 11.14375 15.375 13 6.175 8.8275 13.825 14 5.475 6.78375 12.275 15 4.775 5.0125 10.725 16 4.075 3.51375 9.175 17 3.375 2.2875 7.625 18 2.675 1.33375 6.075 19 1.975 0.6525 4.525 20 1.275 0.24375 2.975 Level 19 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 19.25 63.625 32.425 2 18.325 57.43375 30.875 3 17.4 51.56 29.325 4 16.475 46.00375 27.775 5 15.55 40.765 26.225 6 14.625 35.84375 24.675 7 13.7 31.24 23.125 8 12.775 26.95375 21.575 9 11.85 22.985 20.025 10 10.925 19.33375 18.475 11 10 16 16.925 12 9.075 12.98375 15.375 13 8.15 10.285 13.825 14 7.225 7.90375 12.275 15 6.3 5.84 10.725 16 5.375 4.09375 9.175 17 4.45 2.665 7.625 18 3.525 1.55375 6.075 19 2.6 0.76 4.525 20 1.675 0.28375 2.975

Da_Craw
Joined Dec 1969
And the tables that do assume a source of advantage (even for the greatsword user).

Show

 Level 20 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 19.9625 66 40.815 2 19.91625 62.825 40.72125 3 19.7775 59.65 40.44 4 19.54625 56.475 39.97125 5 19.2225 53.3 39.315 6 18.80625 50.125 38.47125 7 18.2975 46.95 37.44 8 17.69625 43.775 36.22125 9 17.0025 40.6 34.815 10 16.21625 37.425 33.22125 11 15.3375 34.25 31.44 12 14.36625 31.075 29.47125 13 13.3025 27.9 27.315 14 12.14625 24.725 24.97125 15 10.8975 21.55 22.44 16 9.55625 18.375 19.72125 17 8.1225 15.2 16.815 18 6.59625 12.025 13.72125 19 4.9775 8.85 10.44 20 3.26625 5.675 6.97125 Level 1 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 10.28 13.525 12.67 2 10.25625 12.875 12.64125 3 10.185 12.225 12.555 4 10.06625 11.575 12.41125 5 9.9 10.925 12.21 6 9.68625 10.275 11.95125 7 9.425 9.625 11.635 8 9.11625 8.975 11.26125 9 8.76 8.325 10.83 10 8.35625 7.675 10.34125 11 7.905 7.025 9.795 12 7.40625 6.375 9.19125 13 6.86 5.725 8.53 14 6.26625 5.075 7.81125 15 5.625 4.425 7.035 16 4.93625 3.775 6.20125 17 4.2 3.125 5.31 18 3.41625 2.475 4.36125 19 2.585 1.825 3.355 20 1.70625 1.175 2.29125 Level 3 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 10.28 17.15 12.67 2 10.25625 16.325 12.64125 3 10.185 15.5 12.555 4 10.06625 14.675 12.41125 5 9.9 13.85 12.21 6 9.68625 13.025 11.95125 7 9.425 12.2 11.635 8 9.11625 11.375 11.26125 9 8.76 10.55 10.83 10 8.35625 9.725 10.34125 11 7.905 8.9 9.795 12 7.40625 8.075 9.19125 13 6.86 7.25 8.53 14 6.26625 6.425 7.81125 15 5.625 5.6 7.035 16 4.93625 4.775 6.20125 17 4.2 3.95 5.31 18 3.41625 3.125 4.36125 19 2.585 2.3 3.355 20 1.70625 1.475 2.29125 Level 5 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 10.28 20.775 19.70625 2 10.25625 19.775 19.66125 3 10.185 18.775 19.52625 4 10.06625 17.775 19.30125 5 9.9 16.775 18.98625 6 9.68625 15.775 18.58125 7 9.425 14.775 18.08625 8 9.11625 13.775 17.50125 9 8.76 12.775 16.82625 10 8.35625 11.775 16.06125 11 7.905 10.775 15.20625 12 7.40625 9.775 14.26125 13 6.86 8.775 13.22625 14 6.26625 7.775 12.10125 15 5.625 6.775 10.88625 16 4.93625 5.775 9.58125 17 4.2 4.775 8.18625 18 3.41625 3.775 6.70125 19 2.585 2.775 5.12625 20 1.70625 1.775 3.46125 Level 7 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 10.28 24.4 19.70625 2 10.25625 23.225 19.66125 3 10.185 22.05 19.52625 4 10.06625 20.875 19.30125 5 9.9 19.7 18.98625 6 9.68625 18.525 18.58125 7 9.425 17.35 18.08625 8 9.11625 16.175 17.50125 9 8.76 15 16.82625 10 8.35625 13.825 16.06125 11 7.905 12.65 15.20625 12 7.40625 11.475 14.26125 13 6.86 10.3 13.22625 14 6.26625 9.125 12.10125 15 5.625 7.95 10.88625 16 4.93625 6.775 9.58125 17 4.2 5.6 8.18625 18 3.41625 4.425 6.70125 19 2.585 3.25 5.12625 20 1.70625 2.075 3.46125 Level 9 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 15.12125 32.7 19.70625 2 15.08625 31.125 19.66125 3 14.98125 29.55 19.52625 4 14.80625 27.975 19.30125 5 14.56125 26.4 18.98625 6 14.24625 24.825 18.58125 7 13.86125 23.25 18.08625 8 13.40625 21.675 17.50125 9 12.88125 20.1 16.82625 10 12.28625 18.525 16.06125 11 11.62125 16.95 15.20625 12 10.88625 15.375 14.26125 13 10.08125 13.8 13.22625 14 9.20625 12.225 12.10125 15 8.26125 10.65 10.88625 16 7.24625 9.075 9.58125 17 6.16125 7.5 8.18625 18 5.00625 5.925 6.70125 19 3.78125 4.35 5.12625 20 2.48625 2.775 3.46125 Level 11 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 15.12125 42.625 26.7425 2 15.08625 40.575 26.68125 3 14.98125 38.525 26.4975 4 14.80625 36.475 26.19125 5 14.56125 34.425 25.7625 6 14.24625 32.375 25.21125 7 13.86125 30.325 24.5375 8 13.40625 28.275 23.74125 9 12.88125 26.225 22.8225 10 12.28625 24.175 21.78125 11 11.62125 22.125 20.6175 12 10.88625 20.075 19.33125 13 10.08125 18.025 17.9225 14 9.20625 15.975 16.39125 15 8.26125 13.925 14.7375 16 7.24625 11.875 12.96125 17 6.16125 9.825 11.0625 18 5.00625 7.775 9.04125 19 3.78125 5.725 6.8975 20 2.48625 3.675 4.63125 Level 13 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 15.12125 47.3 26.7425 2 15.08625 45.025 26.68125 3 14.98125 42.75 26.4975 4 14.80625 40.475 26.19125 5 14.56125 38.2 25.7625 6 14.24625 35.925 25.21125 7 13.86125 33.65 24.5375 8 13.40625 31.375 23.74125 9 12.88125 29.1 22.8225 10 12.28625 26.825 21.78125 11 11.62125 24.55 20.6175 12 10.88625 22.275 19.33125 13 10.08125 20 17.9225 14 9.20625 17.725 16.39125 15 8.26125 15.45 14.7375 16 7.24625 13.175 12.96125 17 6.16125 10.9 11.0625 18 5.00625 8.625 9.04125 19 3.78125 6.35 6.8975 20 2.48625 4.075 4.63125 Level 15 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 15.12125 51.975 33.77875 2 15.08625 49.475 33.70125 3 14.98125 46.975 33.46875 4 14.80625 44.475 33.08125 5 14.56125 41.975 32.53875 6 14.24625 39.475 31.84125 7 13.86125 36.975 30.98875 8 13.40625 34.475 29.98125 9 12.88125 31.975 28.81875 10 12.28625 29.475 27.50125 11 11.62125 26.975 26.02875 12 10.88625 24.475 24.40125 13 10.08125 21.975 22.61875 14 9.20625 19.475 20.68125 15 8.26125 16.975 18.58875 16 7.24625 14.475 16.34125 17 6.16125 11.975 13.93875 18 5.00625 9.475 11.38125 19 3.78125 6.975 8.66875 20 2.48625 4.475 5.80125 Level 17 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 15.12125 56.65 33.77875 2 15.08625 53.925 33.70125 3 14.98125 51.2 33.46875 4 14.80625 48.475 33.08125 5 14.56125 45.75 32.53875 6 14.24625 43.025 31.84125 7 13.86125 40.3 30.98875 8 13.40625 37.575 29.98125 9 12.88125 34.85 28.81875 10 12.28625 32.125 27.50125 11 11.62125 29.4 26.02875 12 10.88625 26.675 24.40125 13 10.08125 23.95 22.61875 14 9.20625 21.225 20.68125 15 8.26125 18.5 18.58875 16 7.24625 15.775 16.34125 17 6.16125 13.05 13.93875 18 5.00625 10.325 11.38125 19 3.78125 7.6 8.66875 20 2.48625 4.875 5.80125 Level 19 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 19.9625 66 33.77875 2 19.91625 62.825 33.70125 3 19.7775 59.65 33.46875 4 19.54625 56.475 33.08125 5 19.2225 53.3 32.53875 6 18.80625 50.125 31.84125 7 18.2975 46.95 30.98875 8 17.69625 43.775 29.98125 9 17.0025 40.6 28.81875 10 16.21625 37.425 27.50125 11 15.3375 34.25 26.02875 12 14.36625 31.075 24.40125 13 13.3025 27.9 22.61875 14 12.14625 24.725 20.68125 15 10.8975 21.55 18.58875 16 9.55625 18.375 16.34125 17 8.1225 15.2 13.93875 18 6.59625 12.025 11.38125 19 4.9775 8.85 8.66875 20 3.26625 5.675 5.80125

Bly2729
Joined Dec 1969
Speaking as a pillar of the Rogue community, I don't really give two figs about DPR.  If I don't think I can take someone in a fight, which is a lot, I look for something heavy to drop on them.  It's about how creatively you can use your skills and environment, not probability.  Having said that, I was finally over not having sneak attack and I feel like a cleaned up addict being given heroin again by my sponsor.

We do get that the intent of Sneak Attack is to use it with advantage so they cancel out right?

Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."

lokiare
Joined Dec 1969
Nitpicking:
Hiting on a 9 makes it 60%, not 55%

Carry on

55% hit and 5% crit = 60%...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Souffle
Joined Dec 1969
In case anyone was wondering, here is a comparison of regular attack vs sneak attack vs a hypothetical Greatsword user with full (x5) Deadly Strike progression but no other features. The tables assume no other source of advantage.

Show

 Level 20 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 19.25 63.625 39.2 2 18.325 57.43375 37.325 3 17.4 51.56 35.45 4 16.475 46.00375 33.575 5 15.55 40.765 31.7 6 14.625 35.84375 29.825 7 13.7 31.24 27.95 8 12.775 26.95375 26.075 9 11.85 22.985 24.2 10 10.925 19.33375 22.325 11 10 16 20.45 12 9.075 12.98375 18.575 13 8.15 10.285 16.7 14 7.225 7.90375 14.825 15 6.3 5.84 12.95 16 5.375 4.09375 11.075 17 4.45 2.665 9.2 18 3.525 1.55375 7.325 19 2.6 0.76 5.45 20 1.675 0.28375 3.575 Level 1 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 13.02625 12.1 2 9.425 11.75875 11.525 3 8.95 10.55625 10.95 4 8.475 9.41875 10.375 5 8 8.34625 9.8 6 7.525 7.33875 9.225 7 7.05 6.39625 8.65 8 6.575 5.51875 8.075 9 6.1 4.70625 7.5 10 5.625 3.95875 6.925 11 5.15 3.27625 6.35 12 4.675 2.65875 5.775 13 4.2 2.10625 5.2 14 3.725 1.61875 4.625 15 3.25 1.19625 4.05 16 2.775 0.83875 3.475 17 2.3 0.54625 2.9 18 1.825 0.31875 2.325 19 1.35 0.15625 1.75 20 0.875 0.05875 1.175 Level 3 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 16.5325 12.1 2 9.425 14.92375 11.525 3 8.95 13.3975 10.95 4 8.475 11.95375 10.375 5 8 10.5925 9.8 6 7.525 9.31375 9.225 7 7.05 8.1175 8.65 8 6.575 7.00375 8.075 9 6.1 5.9725 7.5 10 5.625 5.02375 6.925 11 5.15 4.1575 6.35 12 4.675 3.37375 5.775 13 4.2 2.6725 5.2 14 3.725 2.05375 4.625 15 3.25 1.5175 4.05 16 2.775 1.06375 3.475 17 2.3 0.6925 2.9 18 1.825 0.40375 2.325 19 1.35 0.1975 1.75 20 0.875 0.07375 1.175 Level 5 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 20.03875 18.875 2 9.425 18.08875 17.975 3 8.95 16.23875 17.075 4 8.475 14.48875 16.175 5 8 12.83875 15.275 6 7.525 11.28875 14.375 7 7.05 9.83875 13.475 8 6.575 8.48875 12.575 9 6.1 7.23875 11.675 10 5.625 6.08875 10.775 11 5.15 5.03875 9.875 12 4.675 4.08875 8.975 13 4.2 3.23875 8.075 14 3.725 2.48875 7.175 15 3.25 1.83875 6.275 16 2.775 1.28875 5.375 17 2.3 0.83875 4.475 18 1.825 0.48875 3.575 19 1.35 0.23875 2.675 20 0.875 0.08875 1.775 Level 7 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 9.9 23.545 18.875 2 9.425 21.25375 17.975 3 8.95 19.08 17.075 4 8.475 17.02375 16.175 5 8 15.085 15.275 6 7.525 13.26375 14.375 7 7.05 11.56 13.475 8 6.575 9.97375 12.575 9 6.1 8.505 11.675 10 5.625 7.15375 10.775 11 5.15 5.92 9.875 12 4.675 4.80375 8.975 13 4.2 3.805 8.075 14 3.725 2.92375 7.175 15 3.25 2.16 6.275 16 2.775 1.51375 5.375 17 2.3 0.985 4.475 18 1.825 0.57375 3.575 19 1.35 0.28 2.675 20 0.875 0.10375 1.775 Level 9 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 31.56 18.875 2 13.875 28.48875 17.975 3 13.175 25.575 17.075 4 12.475 22.81875 16.175 5 11.775 20.22 15.275 6 11.075 17.77875 14.375 7 10.375 15.495 13.475 8 9.675 13.36875 12.575 9 8.975 11.4 11.675 10 8.275 9.58875 10.775 11 7.575 7.935 9.875 12 6.875 6.43875 8.975 13 6.175 5.1 8.075 14 5.475 3.91875 7.175 15 4.775 2.895 6.275 16 4.075 2.02875 5.375 17 3.375 1.32 4.475 18 2.675 0.76875 3.575 19 1.975 0.375 2.675 20 1.275 0.13875 1.775 Level 11 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 41.08125 25.65 2 13.875 37.08375 24.425 3 13.175 33.29125 23.2 4 12.475 29.70375 21.975 5 11.775 26.32125 20.75 6 11.075 23.14375 19.525 7 10.375 20.17125 18.3 8 9.675 17.40375 17.075 9 8.975 14.84125 15.85 10 8.275 12.48375 14.625 11 7.575 10.33125 13.4 12 6.875 8.38375 12.175 13 6.175 6.64125 10.95 14 5.475 5.10375 9.725 15 4.775 3.77125 8.5 16 4.075 2.64375 7.275 17 3.375 1.72125 6.05 18 2.675 1.00375 4.825 19 1.975 0.49125 3.6 20 1.275 0.18375 2.375 Level 13 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 45.59 25.65 2 13.875 41.15375 24.425 3 13.175 36.945 23.2 4 12.475 32.96375 21.975 5 11.775 29.21 20.75 6 11.075 25.68375 19.525 7 10.375 22.385 18.3 8 9.675 19.31375 17.075 9 8.975 16.47 15.85 10 8.275 13.85375 14.625 11 7.575 11.465 13.4 12 6.875 9.30375 12.175 13 6.175 7.37 10.95 14 5.475 5.66375 9.725 15 4.775 4.185 8.5 16 4.075 2.93375 7.275 17 3.375 1.91 6.05 18 2.675 1.11375 4.825 19 1.975 0.545 3.6 20 1.275 0.20375 2.375 Level 15 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 50.09875 32.425 2 13.875 45.22375 30.875 3 13.175 40.59875 29.325 4 12.475 36.22375 27.775 5 11.775 32.09875 26.225 6 11.075 28.22375 24.675 7 10.375 24.59875 23.125 8 9.675 21.22375 21.575 9 8.975 18.09875 20.025 10 8.275 15.22375 18.475 11 7.575 12.59875 16.925 12 6.875 10.22375 15.375 13 6.175 8.09875 13.825 14 5.475 6.22375 12.275 15 4.775 4.59875 10.725 16 4.075 3.22375 9.175 17 3.375 2.09875 7.625 18 2.675 1.22375 6.075 19 1.975 0.59875 4.525 20 1.275 0.22375 2.975 Level 17 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 14.575 54.6075 32.425 2 13.875 49.29375 30.875 3 13.175 44.2525 29.325 4 12.475 39.48375 27.775 5 11.775 34.9875 26.225 6 11.075 30.76375 24.675 7 10.375 26.8125 23.125 8 9.675 23.13375 21.575 9 8.975 19.7275 20.025 10 8.275 16.59375 18.475 11 7.575 13.7325 16.925 12 6.875 11.14375 15.375 13 6.175 8.8275 13.825 14 5.475 6.78375 12.275 15 4.775 5.0125 10.725 16 4.075 3.51375 9.175 17 3.375 2.2875 7.625 18 2.675 1.33375 6.075 19 1.975 0.6525 4.525 20 1.275 0.24375 2.975 Level 19 Roll Required Regular Attack Sneak Attack Greatsword 1 19.25 63.625 32.425 2 18.325 57.43375 30.875 3 17.4 51.56 29.325 4 16.475 46.00375 27.775 5 15.55 40.765 26.225 6 14.625 35.84375 24.675 7 13.7 31.24 23.125 8 12.775 26.95375 21.575 9 11.85 22.985 20.025 10 10.925 19.33375 18.475 11 10 16 16.925 12 9.075 12.98375 15.375 13 8.15 10.285 13.825 14 7.225 7.90375 12.275 15 6.3 5.84 10.725 16 5.375 4.09375 9.175 17 4.45 2.665 7.625 18 3.525 1.55375 6.075 19 2.6 0.76 4.525 20 1.675 0.28375 2.975

I don't get it. Obviously if you hit on a 1 sneak attack is pretty awesome because the disadvantage can't make you miss... but how on earth do you get 63.625 damage? shouldn't that be 95% x (13d6 + 4 = 49.5) + 5% x (13x6 + 4 + 1d6 = 85.5) = 51.3 ? Slightly higher if you're using a +5 stat at lvl 20, but not in the 60s.

Note that I ignored natural 1s being always a miss anyway (so the roll required table shouldn't even have an entry for 1), but that will affect them both anyway.

Edit: nm, forgot sneak attack jumped to d8s later on.
Souffle
Joined Dec 1969
Although a straight "number required to hit" comparison isn't necessarily the most realistic approach, since by lvl 20 the fighter has an extra +2 to hit over the rogue, so you're actually comparing different lines of the table.
Da_Craw
Joined Dec 1969
Although a straight "number required to hit" comparison isn't necessarily the most realistic approach, since by lvl 20 the fighter has an extra +2 to hit over the rogue, so you're actually comparing different lines of the table.

The table wasn't really meant for comparing the rogue against other classes (too many mechanics complicate matters). The Greatsword line was just there for some context - to show what a 'standard' melee combatant would do against someone as difficult for them to hit. You're right, though, the Greatsword fighter would look be looking at a different to-hit against the same opponent.

For what it's worth, assuming advantage: if the level 20 rogue can hit on a 10, they will do more damage sneak attacking than the 'warrior' who hits on an 8.
Although a straight "number required to hit" comparison isn't necessarily the most realistic approach, since by lvl 20 the fighter has an extra +2 to hit over the rogue, so you're actually comparing different lines of the table.

The table wasn't really meant for comparing the rogue against other classes (too many mechanics complicate matters). The Greatsword line was just there for some context - to show what a 'standard' melee combatant would do against someone as difficult for them to hit. You're right, though, the Greatsword fighter would look be looking at a different to-hit against the same opponent.

For what it's worth, assuming advantage: if the level 20 rogue can hit on a 10, they will do more damage sneak attacking than the 'warrior' who hits on an 8.

That means that even at level 1, with sneak attack a rogue is comparing favorably in damage dealt to a fighter (giving the assumption that a rogue will have advantage and a fighter will not, which will usually be the case).

"Please note that, like the monk, the rogue is in transition and will receive further revision in a subsequent release."

Something to remember. Considering our party is a Monk, a Rogue and Barbarian
talamare
Joined Dec 1969
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?
Da_Craw
Joined Dec 1969
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?

Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.
talamare
Joined Dec 1969
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?

Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.

Sneak Attack doesnt say it requires an action

So I was wondering if it was legal to do a normal swing which would swing both weapons, have your main hand deal normal swing damage, and your offhand that cant apply strength/dex bonus to damage etc, use sneak attack
Speaking as a pillar of the Rogue community, I don't really give two figs about DPR.  If I don't think I can take someone in a fight, which is a lot, I look for something heavy to drop on them.  It's about how creatively you can use your skills and environment, not probability.

"You say the mechanic doesn't work properly? Well, why are you using your abilities anyway, I just like to be CrEaTiVe, man!"

I'm still amazed at the amount of people who are not only fine with, but ENCOURAGE the devs to make a poorly designed game because they will just ignore the rules that they paid for anyway, because rules are for squares, man. I do think creative problem solving is an important part of D&D and should be encouraged, but it should not be encouraged by making your standard abilities not work properly. If a mechanic does not actually work as it should and if it therefore does not help reinforce the themes of a characterr, it should simply be removed.

NOTE: I am not talking specificly about Sneak Attack, or any other mechanic for that matter. I am still just baffled at the number of people who respond to any criticism of game mechanics with "They shouldn't fix anything, just ignore them and use your ImAgInAtIoN!"
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
Eerongal
Joined Dec 1969
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?

Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.

Sneak Attack doesnt say it requires an action

So I was wondering if it was legal to do a normal swing which would swing both weapons, have your main hand deal normal swing damage, and your offhand that cant apply strength/dex bonus to damage etc, use sneak attack

It looks like you could, on glancing at the rules quickly. You can only use sneak attack once per turn (so only on one attack roll of your two for TWF) but it doesn't seem to require an action, so I don't see why you couldn't normal attack with main hand and SA with offhand.

It's also worth noting that most of the advantage mechanics are also once per turn, so you could also only advantage one of your two attacks, and it doesn't take an action either.

There's a simple fix for this, I think. If the target of the attack is unaware of the rogue, he/she does not need to trade advantage.  Presumably the rogue has time in this scenario to line up a strike/shot on vitals. Realistically, he has advantage AND his (defenseless) enemy has disadvantage in this scenario. When this is not the case, it's fluffed as trying to line up a shot/strike on the vitals in active combat (of COURSE he would gain disadvantage/lose advantage).

Another, slightly more powerful option (also more fair, if we assume that not all rogues are stealthy killers), is to say that a rogue use sneak attack whenever he would have advantage, without penalty, but can also opt to accept disadvantage, when things are more even, to set up a sneak attack in normal combat.
Eric888
Joined Dec 1969
Don't think of sneak attack as worsenning your chance to hit for extra damage, instead think of sneak attack as finding a use for multiple stacks of advantage.

Rogues can get advantage much easier than other classes. So if you are playing a rogue your goal is to get advantage from two sources at one time so that you can use sneak attack without penalty. I like it working this way.
I posted this on another thread, but I think it fits here: Rogue is a mess now.

It's generic and it's not really good at anything. Its abilities don't even complement one another, like the 3.5 monk, or a badly multiclassed character. It needs fixing because, as is, the rogue has no role. It's not a damage dealer, it's skills can be duplicated by literally any other class, it's dangerously squishy, the only abilities they have that actually protect them from damage only work if something allows a dexterity saving throw, and it doesn't have spells.

1. Backstab is basically just flanking and this makes no sense for an ASSASSIN who, one would think, will be working alone.

2. Skill mastery is gone now, meaning rogues have no real advantage on skill checks over other classes.

3. Sneak Attack is a non-feature until higher levels (Rogues now have exactly ONE extra way to gain advantage).

4. Thief, somehow, doesn't get pick pockets, but Trickster does?

5. They seem to have just rolled a percent-die to see which specialties get advantage when alone, and which get advantage from flanking. It feels generic, and it feels like it's situationally dependent, which I don't like AT ALL.

6. I also don't like the way Blindsense is written. Abilities that simply negate (completely) other abilities are a bad idea, especially at mid-levels in a base class. So, nobody can hide when a rogue's around? Lame.
Bly2729
Joined Dec 1969
I posted this on another thread, but I think it fits here: Rogue is a mess now.

It's generic and it's not really good at anything. Its abilities don't even complement one another, like the 3.5 monk, or a badly multiclassed character. It needs fixing because, as is, the rogue has no role. It's not a damage dealer, it's skills can be duplicated by literally any other class, it's dangerously squishy, the only abilities they have that actually protect them from damage only work if something allows a dexterity saving throw, and it doesn't have spells.

1. Backstab is basically just flanking and this makes no sense for an ASSASSIN who, one would think, will be working alone.

2. Skill mastery is gone now, meaning rogues have no real advantage on skill checks over other classes.

3. Sneak Attack is a non-feature until higher levels (Rogues now have exactly ONE extra way to gain advantage).

4. Thief, somehow, doesn't get pick pockets, but Trickster does?

5. They seem to have just rolled a percent-die to see which specialties get advantage when alone, and which get advantage from flanking. It feels generic, and it feels like it's situationally dependent, which I don't like AT ALL.

6. I also don't like the way Blindsense is written. Abilities that simply negate (completely) other abilities are a bad idea, especially at mid-levels in a base class. So, nobody can hide when a rogue's around? Lame.

Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."

It was actually posted on a thread about the new release packet ("thoughts on....."). Someone else pointed out that the "Read First" document indicated that the Rogue and Monk are in transition and incomplete, however. So, I guess that's somewhat comforting. But I liked last release's Rogue. I didn't see a problem with what they could do and I can't imagine why it needed nerfed.
Arithezoo
Joined Aug 2008
3813 Posts

strider13x
Joined Mar 2012
2021 Posts
In the 'Read First' file they do say the Rogue and Monk are still being tweaked.
We can all read into something and not know how it plays out. I discovered this with each of the other packets. Playtest it, then our comments will have some basis to them. Unfortunately I will not have to group back together for two weeks!
Are these calcs (OP and DaCraw) done using TWF or Single Weapon?

Mine were done assuming single weapon. I can produce a similar table for assuming a two-weapon regular attack. My interpreration of the sneak attack rules is that it triggers on the attack roll, not the damage roll, so it would only ever trigger on the first attack (and you can't roll two attacks and declare the sucessful one your 'sneak attack').

I do have a table for comparing (non sneak attack) two handed weapons to two weapon fighting. Combining the two tables is doable if enough people want it.

Sneak Attack doesnt say it requires an action

So I was wondering if it was legal to do a normal swing which would swing both weapons, have your main hand deal normal swing damage, and your offhand that cant apply strength/dex bonus to damage etc, use sneak attack

This is totally viable, and with the Relentless feat, it is actually a somewhat interesting tactic.  If you can't fulfill the conditions for your Scheme Advantage-Giver ability, you can roll the first attack and, if it misses, you get advantage on the second.

So against a target that you only have a 50% hit chance on, you have a 50% chance to ignore the disadvantage on your second attack.
Effectively this means that on that target you have a :
25% chance to apply sneak attack without relentless
37.5% chance to apply sneak attack with relentless.

Nowhere near game breaking, but still pretty useful, and if you do get the advantage on your first attack and attempt a Sneak Attack, you still have a pretty good chance of applying Deadly Strike if your sneak attack misses.

2. Skill mastery is gone now, meaning rogues have no real advantage on skill checks over other classes.

Um, rogues get 2 bonus skills over the other classes. Sometimes more (if one of their feats grants them extra skills too). They also get to add an extra +1d6 (on top of their skill die) to two of the skills they gain. So, they do have an advantage.

3. Sneak Attack is a non-feature until higher levels (Rogues now have exactly ONE extra way to gain advantage).

That isn't true. It isn't worth using when you don't have advantage until higher levels. But, it is very easy to gain advantage. When you have advantage, giving it up is often worth it even at lower levels. It quickly always becomes worth it.

What people are not considering is being granted two instances of advantage on an attack.
Each rogue scheme has a built in way to get advantage easily which cancels the downside of sneak attack.
However no one has considered if you were hidden before attacking, having ambush or first strike feats, status ailments, or various other ways to get advantage.  Added to backstab or isolated strike... you get a sneak attack with advantage and a huge boost in dps.
As for sneaking with a 18 in dex at level one an assassin can get a d20 (min 10 from skill focus(sneak)) + d6 (skill die) + d6 (assassin mastery) + 4 (dex bonus).
Arithezoo
Joined Aug 2008
3813 Posts
What people are not considering is being granted two instances of advantage on an attack.
Each rogue scheme has a built in way to get advantage easily which cancels the downside of sneak attack.
However no one has considered if you were hidden before attacking, having ambush or first strike feats, status ailments, or various other ways to get advantage.  Added to backstab or isolated strike... you get a sneak attack with advantage and a huge boost in dps.
As for sneaking with a 18 in dex at level one an assassin can get a d20 (min 10 from skill focus(sneak)) + d6 (skill die) + d6 (assassin mastery) + 4 (dex bonus).

You can't do this; advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out.  It doesn't matter how many sources of each you have.

liggenor
Joined Dec 1969
What people are not considering is being granted two instances of advantage on an attack.
Each rogue scheme has a built in way to get advantage easily which cancels the downside of sneak attack.
However no one has considered if you were hidden before attacking, having ambush or first strike feats, status ailments, or various other ways to get advantage.  Added to backstab or isolated strike... you get a sneak attack with advantage and a huge boost in dps.
As for sneaking with a 18 in dex at level one an assassin can get a d20 (min 10 from skill focus(sneak)) + d6 (skill die) + d6 (assassin mastery) + 4 (dex bonus).

You can't do this; advantage and disadvantage cancel each other out.  It doesn't matter how many sources of each you have.

I also don't know how to get Dex 18 at l1 now that the old Human +2 is gone.
I understood advantage and disadvantage differently, I have been playing it with each instance cancelling each other out individually than just in general. Rereading it though, that is not what they intended I notice.

As for Dex 18, you have to realize that it is easy to roll one 16 and get 1 from your race and one from your class.  Even if you use the pregen stats and get a Dex 17 at level one that is only the difference of +1.  With a sneak result range at level one of 15-35.