"whenever a creature dies" trigger?

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Question #1

Deathgreeter's ability says:


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Whenever another creature dies, you may gain 1 life.
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but let me rewrite that with what the word "dies" stands for:

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Whenever another creature is put into the graveyard from the battlefield, you may gain 1 life.
==

i know that when a card's text mentions the word "creature", it means "creature permanent", (except in the case of Protection from Creatures).

so i'm confused on how this could ever trigger. there is never a time when a creature permanent could ever end up in a graveyard, right?


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Question #2:




i control a Fangren Marauder, and a Runeclaw Bear. i then turn my Bear into an artifact creature using a Liquimetal Coating. i then kill my Bear (say, with a Shock). does Fangren Maurader's triggered ability trigger? if so, why? (that is, the ability says "Whenever an artifact is put into a graveyard from the battlefield", but when my Runeclaw Bear is put into the graveyard, it isn't an artifact; so can you say that an artifact is put into a graveyard?).

and as always, what comp rule makes this clear? thanks.
so i'm confused on how this could ever trigger. there is never a time when a creature permanent could ever end up in a graveyard, right?

Because a creature permanent is moving to the graveyard. That it becomes a creature card afterwards is irrelevant to the trigger. All that matters is that a creature permanent goes to the graveyard.
i control a Fangren Marauder, and a Runeclaw Bear. i then turn my Bear into an artifact creature using a Liquimetal Coating. i then kill my Bear (say, with a Shock). does Fangren Maurader's triggered ability trigger? if so, why?

Yes, because it's an artifact moving to the graveyard. Again, the game doesn't care what it looks like in the graveyard.


I think you're confusing zone-entering abilities with zone-leaving abilities. Leaves-the-battlefield triggers (like dying) only look at the state of the battlefield as the permanent is leaving it.

As a counterexample, if you have Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Humility on the battlefield and Emrakul dies, its graveyard shuffle ability will trigger because his is an "enters-the-graveyard" ability, and in the graveyard, it has its ability, even though when it died it did not have the ability. However, if Humility was a Yixlid Jailer instead, Emrakul would not let you shuffle your graveyard into your library.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

no, it's not that i'm confused about zone-entering abilities with zone-leaving abilities.
what i'm confused about is that if i read the ability literally, it doesn't seem to trigger like the way we all know it does trigger, and i'm wondering where in the comp rules make it clear that it works the way it actually does.

that is, Fangren Marauder says "Whenever an artifact is put into a graveyard from the battlefield"
but DOESN'T say
"Whenever an object that is an artifact on the battlefield is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" or something similar.
It doesn't have to say that. Leaves-the-battlefield triggers only work from the battlefield. If an artifact [permanent on the battlefield] goes to the graveyard, it is an artifact that was put into a graveyard, and it will trigger Fangren Marauder's ability.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.


Leaves-the-battlefield triggers only work from the battlefield.


i never understand, actually, what people mean when people say this. i don't see this kind of language being used in the comp rules.
i thought the comp rules (in the case of leaves-the-battlefield abilities) takes a look at those leaves-the-battlefield triggers abilities that are present before the event, and then after the event happens, it sees if any of their trigger conditions were met. i don't remember comp rules ever talking about triggers "only working from [some zone]"?

anyhow, i do understand what you're saying the /correct answer/ is (ie if there's an artifact on the battlefield, and it gets put into a graveyard, that will trigger a leaves-the-battlefield trigger that looks for an artifact leaving the battlefield), but i'm not understanding how the actual words used for the ability ("Whenever an artifact is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") means what we know actually does happen.
Maybe this will help a little:
603.6c. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren't limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.



You are right in that the game looks for trigger events after they've happened, but that doesn't change the fact that a permanent died.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Leaves the battlefield triggers =/= put into the graveyard from anywhere triggers

Deathgreeter =/= Bloodchief Ascension (not the use of the word "card")

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

i thought the comp rules (in the case of leaves-the-battlefield abilities) takes a look at those leaves-the-battlefield triggers abilities that are present before the event, and then after the event happens, it sees if any of their trigger conditions were met.

The Game will consider the object in the Grave as a new object, but the Game keeps track of its previous incarnation as an artifact on the Field, be it only for archiving purpose. The Game (and human players) knows that the newly graved object came from that now-unexistant artifact permanent.

Even though the Dolls cannot remember their previous assignments, the Dollhouse keeps track of them! 

Wizards of the Coast: outsourced to Elbonia



Even though the Dolls cannot remember their previous assignments, the Dollhouse keeps track of them! 




Wow... just wow....
I miss that show
not the best of Whedon's work, but still great
proud member of the 2011 community team
You're looking for this one:

603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger.

Both of these effects are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, so they look "back in time." Deathgreeter sees a creature permanent, and Fangren Marauder sees an artifact creature.
Actually, I think the quote we need is
400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.

So if, say, a Mortus Strider dies, the game

  1. Knows that a Mortus Strider creature permanent object ceased to exist on the battlefield;

  2. Knows that a Mortus Strider creature card object was created in the graveyard;

  3. Has an explicit exception to the "memory erasing stuff" that allows a relationship between those objects to be preserved;

  4. Can notice an ability text on the object in the graveyard that looks like a leaves-the-battlefield triggered ability;

  5. Therefore, it can check the previous game state to see if the corresponding object on the battlefield also had that ability;

  6. Since it did, it can allow that ability to trigger.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

4. Can notice an ability on the object in the graveyard that looks like a leaves-the-battlefield triggered ability;

this is wrong
Mortus Strider will trigger with Yixlid Jailer on the battlefield
proud member of the 2011 community team
So if a creature is exiled, it hasn't necessarily died?

What about, say, Pillar of Flame - "Pillar of Flame deals 2 damage to target creature or player. If a creature dealt damage this way would die this turn, exile it instead.

So does the creature not die, but instead go into exile? 
Correct. An object dies if -and only if- it goes from Field to Grave. Period.

Wizards of the Coast: outsourced to Elbonia

Well, that will change my plans using Pillar in conjunction with Blood Artist...

Guess I'm stuck with Mugging.  Hope I don't need to burn face for the final 2 points.
4. Can notice an ability on the object in the graveyard that looks like a leaves-the-battlefield triggered ability;

this is wrong
Mortus Strider will trigger with Yixlid Jailer on the battlefield

I meant "text": brain fart.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

it's still not quite right
a Clone of Mortus Strider will also return to the hand

for deathtriggers it simply doesn't matter what the card looks like in the graveyard
proud member of the 2011 community team
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