Caller of the Hunt

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Why on earth does Caller of the Hunt have you choose a creature type as an additional cost to cast it and not as it enters the battlefield, like every other thing in the world, ever? It's from Merc Masques...do we really have to take the phrase "As you play" that literally? This template is utterly ridiculous. Could you imagine being somehow unable to pay the additional cost for this card? "Uhm, I seem to have forgotten all the creature types..."

It sounds like the controller of a Desertion that counters a Caller of the Hunt is forced to keep the chosen creature type (that the opponent made) as it occurs while the spell is on the stack, unless they want to counter it before the triggered ability resolves, in which case I'm not even sure if Caller of the Hunt manages to stay alive. Regardless, I think the world will be okay without this corner case.
Why on earth does Caller of the Hunt have you choose a creature type as an additional cost to cast it and not as it enters the battlefield, like every other thing in the world, ever? It's from Merc Masques...do we really have to take the phrase "As you play" that literally? This template is utterly ridiculous. Could you imagine being somehow unable to pay the additional cost for this card? "Uhm, I seem to have forgotten all the creature types..."

It sounds like the controller of a Desertion that counters a Caller of the Hunt is forced to keep the chosen creature type (that the opponent made) as it occurs while the spell is on the stack, unless they want to counter it before the triggered ability resolves, in which case I'm not even sure if Caller of the Hunt manages to stay alive. Regardless, I think the world will be okay without this corner case.



What triggered ability?

I don't know what the previous Oracle wording was, but the new wording was chosen so that players would know the chosen creature type before they had to decide to cast Counterspell or otherwise respond to the spell.

www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
 
Why on earth does Caller of the Hunt have you choose a creature type as an additional cost to cast it and not as it enters the battlefield, like every other thing in the world, ever?

*shrugs* Because that's what it says. I agree it'd be ridiculous for a modern card to have that wording, but given that the card was printed with that wording, and said wording implies a particular functionality, having it actually function that way doesn't seem overly problematic.

It's from Merc Masques...do we really have to take the phrase "As you play" that literally? This template is utterly ridiculous.

Yes, it's ugly, but a lot of old cards are ugly. That's what happens when you shift onto a solid rules and templating base from one made primarily out of cobwebs and hope. Personally, I'd rather leave old cards with the functionality their wording implies to the modern eye than spin more cobwebs to make them work the way they "should" and hope the players don't get confused when the words and function don't match up.

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Does it really have to say "As an additional cost"? Can't it just say "As you cast"? Wouldn't it sound nicer and less technical without being misinterpreted?
Does it really have to say "As an additional cost"? Can't it just say "As you cast"? Wouldn't it sound nicer and less technical without being misinterpreted?

Casting a spell involves several steps. In which of those steps would an "as you cast" effect be applied? "As an additional cost" may read awkwardly, but it does identify exactly when it has to be done.
Caller of the Hunt should say "As Caller of the Hunt enters the battlefield … ." There are many cards that have been changed to say enters the battefield. Caller of the Hunt is the only one to receive bizzare errata like this.

Here are some examples:
Dance of Many
Dracoplasm
Energy Vortex
Mangara's Equity
Minion of the Wastes
Necromancy
Prismatic Ward
Roots of Life
Shapeshifter
Soul Echo
I much prefer consistency over preserving templating idiosyncrasies. That is, I'd want players to think "It says 'as you play', but it's obviously an old card with old templating. I've seen dozens of cards with linked abilities involving a chosen color or creature type, and they're always 'as [this] enters the battlefield', so this one probably means the same thing."
The caller was changed to this wording less than three years ago, so it's unlikely they're going to change it back. Moreover, even the printed version reads differently from every other example of this kind of ability. I think the average player would notice that the printed text is exceptional and, as such, would expect it to behave exceptionally.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

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Does it really have to say "As an additional cost"? Can't it just say "As you cast"? Wouldn't it sound nicer and less technical without being misinterpreted?


See the linked thread for the previous answer to this question.
 
I much prefer consistency over preserving templating idiosyncrasies. That is, I'd want players to think "It says 'as you play', but it's obviously an old card with old templating. I've seen dozens of cards with linked abilities involving a chosen color or creature type, and they're always 'as [this] enters the battlefield', so this one probably means the same thing."



I'm firmly of the opinion that cards should do what they say they do, not what someone thinks people will think they should probably do if they were to be designed today but still doing whatever it is that they do which no card would be designed to do today.

If a card's printed wording functions under the rules, and what it does isn't too crazy, then it should work that way.
M:tG Rules Advisor
If a card's printed wording functions under the rules, and what it does isn't too crazy, then it should work that way.

Caller of the Hunt's printed wording does not function under the rules though. Also what it does is pretty crazy. Every other card like it was changed to say enters the battlefield.
I don't think we disagree all that much. I certainly don't think we should completely ignore the printed text or any aspects that are actually integral to the design of the card. And you agree that there really are cases where something is "too crazy". The disagreement is just on where exactly to draw that line. Personally, I find "As an additional cost to cast Caller of the Hunt, choose a creature type." sufficiently crazy to justify not using it.
If a card's printed wording functions under the rules, and what it does isn't too crazy, then it should work that way.

But it's too crazy. It doesn't work if the Caller enters the battlefield with an AEther Vial.

The card was corrected immediately after the release of the set (it's a post-Sixth Edition card; see other cards from Mercadian Masques that use the correct templating). It's not just old templating, it was a brainfart comparable to Impulse, Oboro Envoy, Wall of Junk and Walking Atlas, all of which also received errata immediately and remain errated now.

Caller of the Hunt should say "As Caller of the Hunt enters the battlefield . . . ." There are many cards that have been changed to say enters the battefield. Caller of the Hunt is the only one to receive bizzare errata like this.

Dance of Many
Dracoplasm
Energy Vortex
Mangara's Equity
Minion of the Wastes
Necromancy
Prismatic Ward
Roots of Life
Shapeshifter
Soul Echo


All Pre-Sixth Edition. Minion of the wastes, especially, could be an additional cost. So It looks like an old wording slipped through, which should be treated like either the above or Oboro Envoy. I don't get why this card was called out special.

Also, with this and Parallax wave, It's very annoying to me to unlearn what a specific card does. I'd like less "cards do what they say," and more "cards do what they have always done."
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oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
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Does it really have to say "As an additional cost"? Can't it just say "As you cast"? Wouldn't it sound nicer and less technical without being misinterpreted?

Casting a spell involves several steps. In which of those steps would an "as you cast" effect be applied? "As an additional cost" may read awkwardly, but it does identify exactly when it has to be done.



Does it really have to say "As an additional cost"? Can't it just say "As you cast"? Wouldn't it sound nicer and less technical without being misinterpreted?


See the linked thread for the previous answer to this question.
 



Thanks cyphern, rudolf.
From what I understand there's supposedly a technical issue with the rules which only allows it to be added as an additional cost. The problem lies with rule 601.2b:
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.45), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it's being cast such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can't apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making these choices.



This rule doesn't mention anything about additional choices, so if we want to add additional choices we have to treat them as additional costs and handle them in  601.2e (calculating what to pay) and 601.2g (paying costs).

I find this to be uncanny, choosing a creature type is a choice not a cost, so it should be performed when choices are made. If the rules are the cause then maybe 601.2b should mention the possibility of choices a player might make caused by "as you cast" abilities.

Also, a different approach could be to treat "as you cast" as a different way of saying "an additional cost". It'd still be technically uncanny perfomed when costs are paid, but at least it won't be written as such in  the text. And as for players handling it, well, we already have keyworded additional costs with "as you cast" in their reminder text, and splice's reminder text uses it both for revealing (which happens at 601.2e) and for paying its splice costs (which happens later at 601.2g). If its okay in these cases then there isn't much concern about players misunderstanding "as you cast".
I agree with rmsgrey. The card works under the rules and does what it says; errata shouldn't be used to "update" old cards to fit with new design conventions.
The card was corrected immediately after the release of the set (it's a post-Sixth Edition card; see other cards from Mercadian Masques that use the correct templating). It's not just old templating, it was a brainfart comparable to Impulse, Oboro Envoy, Wall of Junk and Walking Atlas, all of which also received errata immediately and remain errated now.

All Hallow's Eve is still a sorcery, and it has a way more insane wording than Caller to achieve that. There isn't really a consistent policy here.

Hell, Strongarm Thug is from the same set as Caller, has a "mistake" of comparable scale, and its Oracle wording fixes it.
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I agree with rmsgrey. The card works under the rules and does what it says; errata shouldn't be used to "update" old cards to fit with new design conventions.


What is your opinion on minion of the wastes, then? Same wording, but it was corrected to "As Minion of the Wastes enters the battlefield, pay any amount of life." An additional cost of life makes more sense than "As an additional cost to cast Caller of the Hunt, choose a creature type."
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57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
I agree.
I agree with rmsgrey. The card works under the rules and does what it says; errata shouldn't be used to "update" old cards to fit with new design conventions.


What is your opinion on minion of the wastes, then? Same wording, but it was corrected to "As Minion of the Wastes enters the battlefield, pay any amount of life." An additional cost of life makes more sense than "As an additional cost to cast Caller of the Hunt, choose a creature type."


It doesn't have quite the same wording as it says 'when' instead of 'as'.  I'm not sure why the rules team would care about that difference, but it's the only explanation I could think of for the inconsistency.