restarting the game and licids

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suppose i have a transmogrifying licid, and i activate its ability and its ability resolves.

then the game is restarted with a karn liberated.

can i pay to end the effect of the licid's ability, within the new game?
no, it won't have any effect on it because...

1) it was exiled or
2) it was shuffled into someone's library 

the effect ended the moment it became exiled or otherwise left the battlefield 

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suppose i have a transmogrifying licid, and i activate its ability and its ability resolves.

then the game is restarted with a karn liberated.

can i pay to end the effect of the licid's ability, within the new game?

How so? The Licid will be shuffled into the library just like most cards from the old game. The effect ended when that game ended, the effect doesn't even exist anymore within the new game.



Maybe your problem is with the "non-Aura permanent" part in Karn's ability. Read it fully: "non-Aura permanent cards exiled with Karn Liberated" is talking about permanent cards in Exile (not permanents on the 'field), that were exiled by Karn's first two abilities. If Karn exiled an aura card, that card is shuffled back into the library just like most other cards; non-aura permanent cards he exiled stay exiled then enter the field as the new game starts.


IF Karn exiles your Licid, the Licid's effect ends at this point and it becomes an artifact creature card (non-aura) in exile, so it will return to the battlefield as an artifact creature (non-aura) in the new game.

[<o>]
When you use Karn's ability, the game ends and a new one starts. It's a legit end-of-game, not some weird rules trickery.* You can't pay to end the licid's abilty after that for the same reason you can't do it between games in a match.

*There are quite a few weird rules things that come along with it, but the game actually does end. Nothing carries over except for what Karn explicitly tells you to bring.
alright, a new question, just so i'm clear.

suppose i make my licid into an enchantment. and then someone disenchants it. (clarification: the disenchant resolves). can i still pay after this to end the effect of the licid's ability?
not the way you said it
you can do it in response to Disenchant, but not after it already resolved
proud member of the 2011 community team
oh! this surprises me.
can someone explain to me why this is so? because the way i understood it, the licid's ability is a continuous effect that lasts indefinately. i don't understand why it ends just because the object it's talking about stops becoming an enchantment (or, in this case, stops existing)?

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question #3

suppose i activate my licid's ability, and then in response, i untap it. i let the untap ability resolve, and then i activate my licid's ability again.

what happens after both abilities resolve? are there two special actions (of paying ) from which i can choose? after choosing one of them, does the other one end?
for the same reason your creatures don't get +1/+1 anymore after I Disenchant your Glorious Anthem


it enchants the creature you chose for the first activation
you have to pay to end the effect
proud member of the 2011 community team
Why what is so? The licid has an ability that lets you end the duration of the type-changing effect. If you respond to Disenchant by ending the effect that makes it an enchantment, then Disenchant doesn't have a legal target and gets countered. Why would the ability say "Pay to end this effect" if it intended the effect to last indefinitely?

And if you apply 2 of the same effect, then they will both apply. If you end one of them by paying 1, you still have the other one applying, and will have to pay another 1 to end that as well.

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

in the case of glorious anthem, the giving my creatures +1/+1 is a continuous ability generated by a static ability. once the object with the static ability is gone from the battlefield, the continuous ability is gone, too.

but with the licid, i'm seeing the continuous effect generated by the activated ability as lasting indefinitely, not tied to the object that generated it, nor tied to whatever happens to the object the effect is talking about.
It doesn't last indefinitely... it lasts until you pay 1 to end the effect... Which works much like removing Glorious Anthem from the battlefield. As soon as you do, the continuous effect stops existing.

When you resolve the Licid's ability, it applies an effect in Layer 4 (becomes an enchantment) and in Layer 6 (loses the ability). If you pay 1 to end that effect, it regains the printed ability and stops being an enchantment-aura.

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

Why what is so? The licid has an ability that lets you end the duration of the type-changing effect. If you respond to Disenchant by ending the effect that makes it an enchantment, then Disenchant doesn't have a legal target and gets countered. Why would the ability say "Pay to end this effect" if it intended the effect to last indefinitely?



i'm not sure what you're trying to say here, bimmerbot? with my question, i'm letting the disenchant resolve first, not paying in response to it. and the reason i thought the ability says "pay 1 to end this effect" is /because/ the effect lasts indefinitely /until/ is payed.

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(for my "question #3" i think i understand the answers you're giving me, now)

Oh, if you're letting Disenchant resolve first, then the Licid/Aura will be in the graveyard. You can later spend 1 to end that continuous effect, I suppose, but it won't accomplish anything of note. It can only apply to the original object that created the ability, and when it changes zones, the continuous effect doesn't do anything. The Licid will move from being an Aura on the battlefield to being a creature in the graveyard. That continuous effect won't follow it around because it's becoming a new object.

But if you really want to take a special action by paying 1 after it goes to the graveyard, there's nothing to say you can't do that just for fun. :P

Also, in my original reply, I just realized that Disenchant will actually resolve to destroy the Licid either way, because it's not modal, and it will still be targeting an "artifact or enchantment" even if you end the effect. (I didn't pay attention to which Licid it was).

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

Oh, if you're letting Disenchant resolve first, then the Licid/Aura will be in the graveyard. You can later spend 1 to end that continuous effect, I suppose, but it won't accomplish anything of note.



ah, yes, this was my question! i know it doesn't do anything of note (other than corner cases involving Omnath, Locus of Mana or other similar cards), but i still wanted to know if i understood how continuous effects that last indefinitely work.


so does this mean that others are wrong, who are saying when the licid goes to the graveyard, the effect ends?
Strictly speaking, yes, the effect doesn't end when it goes to the graveyard. However, it stops applying to anything because the card in the graveyard is not the Licid from the battlefield. So for all intents and purposes, it "ends" in terms of relevancy, but doesn't ever truly end unless you pay 1.

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

cool.



question #4

suppose i use the ability of my transmogrifying licid, and it resolves. then i cause it to stop being attached, perhaps by making it a creature.

now, the continuous effect from its ability still exists, and the object it is referring to still exists, too. so this means its still an enchantment - aura (in addition to its other types of artfiact and creature), right? (and so would go to the graveyard as a state-based action?)
How are you making it a creature?

Rules Advisor

uh, lol.. okay, i guess i have to dig up some real cards, now

... huh. i can't find a simple way to make it into a creature while still letting it keep its other types.
is there no simple way to make it unattached?


well, the crux of the question was "the continuous effect doesn't end until i pay 1; i know that. and so if the object its applying to still exists, even if it's not attached to anything, the effect still continues to apply, right?". when i word it like this, it seems obvious that the answer is "yes".

okay, maybe i'm done asking about licids (for now )
After reading through all of this--many times--I get the feeling that this whole entire thing is being overthought.  The reason why you pay to end the effect is to turn it back into an artifact creature.

Rules Advisor

uh, lol.. okay, i guess i have to dig up some real cards, now

... huh. i can't find a simple way to make it into a creature while still letting it keep its other types.
is there no simple way to make it unattached?


well, the crux of the question was "the continuous effect doesn't end until i pay 1; i know that. and so if the object its applying to still exists, even if it's not attached to anything, the effect still continues to apply, right?". when i word it like this, it seems obvious that the answer is "yes".

okay, maybe i'm done asking about licids (for now )


The effect will continue to apply in Layers 4 and 6, but chances are that the effect will also have been overwritten by whatever you used to turn it into a creature some other way. So ending the effect won't do anything noticeable.

But if an object that is an aura (after all effects are applied in the layer system) is on the battlefield but not attached to anything, yes, it will go to the graveyard. Hopefully that answers your theoretical questions?

Not sure that this avenue of study is particularly useful though. Generally, nobody cares if the continuous effect still exists because it just doesn't matter. :P 

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

these theorectical questions are useful to me, because they make me feel warm and fuzzy inside
that, and they make me feel more confident that i /actually/ do know how the rules work. thanks for indulging me :-)

The effect will continue to apply in Layers 4 and 6, but chances are that the effect will also have been overwritten by whatever you used to turn it into a creature some other way.



duh. i can just use animate artifact. i was looking at it before, too, but for some reason didn't remember the silly rule about "becomes an artifact creature" implying that it still retains its other types...
Yup. "Becoming an Artifact Creature" is the weird exception that doesn't follow the pattern of all of the ones...and is also the most common type-changing effect!

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