DLCR: Skargg Goliath

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Todays other GTC card to rate is...

Skarrg Goliath

 
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5.0: First pick no matter what.  I will always play this card.
4.5: Splashable and first pick worthy.
4.0: First pick pack 1.
3.5: Early pick though not always a first pick.
3.0: Solid early/mid pick.
2.5: Solid pick in color.
2.0: Should generally make the deck if in this color.
1.5: Decent filler.
1.0: 23rd card if you have to.
0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in.
0.0: I will never put this card into my deck (main deck or after sideboarding).


This card is powerful.  It rarely ever hits the field as a creature but when it does it's the biggest there is!  It's mostly used as a combat trick to kill the opponent out of nowhere.  I mean +9/+9 and trample will end the game.

3.5

Discuss!

Edit: I'll admit I was probably to high on him but I still believe him to be a game ending combat trick. 
1

8 mana cards just aren't playable in this format. I actively pass this card.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

It's a tough format for a card that needs a minimum of 7 mana to have any effect on the game. I'm sure this has a place in a deck loaded with Keyrunes and Greenside Watchers, but it would best be passed in most others. I can't think of an applicable numeric rating for this card.
Hahaha probably not ever.

1.
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I also pass on this guy, even in gruul.
7 mana as bloodrush is tough.  Needs ramp.  Lots of ramp.  Then there's the problem of staying alive while playing those ramping cards.  If it's p1p1, there's an opportunity to build a deck around that idea.

1.5? 
Gruul Ramp deck? 1.5
Regular Gruul Deck? 0
Regular Simic Deck? 1.0 

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Bloodrushing this won me 2 games at the prerelease, and another player won a few games with it there as well.  I haven't seen one since then, but it's worth playing.  You guys are crazy if you think all limited games end before you have 7 mana out.  I'd likely pass him early, but he's a solid pick if you're in green.  

3.0

This guy is better than he looks.  Originally I thought he was like a 1, simply due to his mana cost. I drafted him in Gruul and left him in the sideboard, which I definitely regret now that I've seen him in action a few times. I would never pick him over any of the good 2-3 drops or good blood rushers, but I'm snapping him up over filler creatures/tricks. This is leagues better than something like Ruination Wurm.  7 mana is a ton, but this guy will impactfully close out games more often than most of the other 7 drops in Gatecrash.  The poor man's Wrecking Ogre!
3.0.  As a 7-drop, it ends the game, which is what you want your 7 drops to do.  You don't need ramp to hit 7 in a good percentage of games.  It even has additional flexibility to be played as an 8 drop, although I have never seen it happen--generally, it bloodrushes and wins when you hit 7.
Except for those times when the opponent responds with removal. Yeah This card is 1.0 for me.
Except for those times when the opponent responds with removal. Yeah This card is 1.0 for me.



By this stage of the game, there probably isn't too much removal left.
Honestly it's not that hard to get to 7 or 8 mana in this format.  I think a lot of people still think this format is as quick as the prerelease was and it isn't.  It's quite common to get a lot of mana out during games.  Just watch draftmagic and Alex from seemsgoodmagic.
7/8 mana and ends the game if not answered immediately. I've run him a couple times, but I didn't have to first pick him. I'd rank him around the same as the Primordials.

You'll want Havens, Watchers and Keystones. 

2.5 
I just played vs simic and both games he played crocanura - green denizen x3 - drakewing krasis - sapphire drake. Game over on turn 8, both times.

I just played vs a gruul deck that both games had turn 2 gruul guildmage, some other creatures, beatdown with lands and removal. I was trying to curve out with my own aggressive simic deck but kept forgetting to draw my evolvers before my (very few) non evolvers. I got steamrollered.

This format is very fast and aggressive. If your games are allowing you to durdle then you got lucky vs your opponents, congrats to you. You cannot count on a card like this, even before we start talking about how it opens you up to 2-for-1.

Heck I remember someone playing this against me once. He cast it one game but he was so behind on board presence that it just didn't matter. If it had been a cars that could interact earlier in the game then maybe things could have gone differently for him. Too many times this will be just an empty card in your hand that could have been an attacker/blocker/removal much earlier in the game.

But maybe at one's local meta things are different. I concede that could be a factor.

/rant, sorry I'm pretty grumpy right now, I got smoked by really bad luck vs aggressive decks that curved out perfectly, so seeing this thread has apparently set me off.
Honestly it's not that hard to get to 7 or 8 mana in this format.  I think a lot of people still think this format is as quick as the prerelease was and it isn't.  It's quite common to get a lot of mana out during games.  Just watch draftmagic and Alex from seemsgoodmagic.



That's been my experience also.  Aside from perfect Boros/Simic builds that are running tons of the cheaper creatures (With boros burning out early at that, and Simic fairing a bit better sometimes) it's not that fast of a format.  Many games I've played in draft have gotten to 7+ land. 

Thing is, hardcasting it is still going to be difficult, although the bloodrush is just bonkers when you get it off.  It's a great end-gamer.

I've passed it a couple times over strong removal/great uncommons and didn't look back (Gruul in my meta is pretty popular), so it's a good way to force an opponent into it.  Still, if Im in Gruul... why not? 
... I got smoked by really bad luck vs aggressive decks that curved out perfectly...



Indeed.  
Isn't most of the criticism the same you would level at Warleader or Ghost Council?   I mean those cost 6 not 8 which is pretty huge, but we are not trying to argue a 5 for this monstrosity.   Also it's in the best ramping colors.  

I am just a n00b but this seems like a 2-3* with a star for "you probably don't want 2 of these". 

On the other hand, I just looked up the DLCR for Ruination Wurm and he was a 2-2.5.   Wurm is much cheaper but Goliath has trample which in itself probably makes up for the 2 turn lag.   
rstnme: "Everything looks good when your opponent passes 4 turns in a row."
Honestly it's not that hard to get to 7 or 8 mana in this format.  I think a lot of people still think this format is as quick as the prerelease was and it isn't.



It's not a lot slower (though you have more options to customize your deck to force the game to go longer). I agree that the prerelease was ridiculous but I've still won games on turn five in this format.
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Honestly it's not that hard to get to 7 or 8 mana in this format.  I think a lot of people still think this format is as quick as the prerelease was and it isn't.



It's not a lot slower (though you have more options to customize your deck to force the game to go longer). I agree that the prerelease was ridiculous but I've still won games on turn five in this format.



You can't say that you consistently win that fast.  There's no way.  Hell, you don't always draw exactly what you want in a constructed deck.     
Honestly it's not that hard to get to 7 or 8 mana in this format.  I think a lot of people still think this format is as quick as the prerelease was and it isn't.



It's not a lot slower (though you have more options to customize your deck to force the game to go longer). I agree that the prerelease was ridiculous but I've still won games on turn five in this format.



You can't say that you consistently win that fast.  There's no way.  Hell, you don't always draw exactly what you want in a constructed deck.     



I wasn't claiming to do it consistently, but I've done it multiple times and in multiple colors already.
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Then you've had insane luck, or no one at your table is drafting the aggro cards.  Turn 5 win in limited in insane and rare.  I've had turn 7, and i thought that was crazy. 

Reading the chart, it appears that the majority of gatecrash games are over by turn 8. There's a spike of games ending around turn 7 and 8.

Then you've had insane luck, or no one at your table is drafting the aggro cards.  Turn 5 win in limited in insane and rare.  I've had turn 7, and i thought that was crazy. 



I think it's more common than you're trying to suggest. The number of games that are not outright won but basically decided by turn 5 is much larger, that needs to be considered.

turn 1 cloudfin raptor
turn 2 metropolis sprite (1 damage)
turn 3 drakewing krasis (3 damage)
turn 4 drakewing krasis (8 damage)
note that these cards are all commons. By now unless you opponent has gruul charm or guardian of the gateless there's not much they can do. They can spend their turns casting removal but then they might not be able to develop their own board. Maybe they but up a blocker but blocking is very weak in GTC. Game's basically over, if not literally on turn 5. Do you seriously not see these games? The format is ridiculous. Skarrg goliath is a wasted pick.
 
I definitely see games effectively ending by turn 5, but I also see plenty of games ending by turn 8 or later.  I have hit 7 mana often enough that I am not too unhappy to run one 7 mana finisher in my deck, even if I only get to 7 mana in fewer than half of my games.
It might be the way i draft but winning on turn 5 happens a lot for me.

I have quite a few turn one Spire Tracer turn 2 madcap skills or turn 2 Burning tree emmisary+Madcap skills which wins usually forces resign as I'm playing more things on turn 1, three, four, etc.
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge
Is everyone at your FNMs new to the game?  Winning on turn 5 often seems absurd, like your opponents aren't playing cards or something.   
Is everyone at your FNMs new to the game?  Winning on turn 5 often seems absurd, like your opponents aren't playing cards or something.   



If they get down something like a Crocanura to trade with my Drakewing Krasis, I just Burst of Strength it and keep developing my board. If a deck gets out of the holes fast in this format, it's hard to stop, whether it's Simic or Boros, Dimir og Gruul. There are lots of tempo plays in the format and exploiting them properly makes it not uncommon to just smother an opponent who isn't curving out properly.
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Is everyone at your FNMs new to the game?  Winning on turn 5 often seems absurd, like your opponents aren't playing cards or something.   



May I enquire where it is that you play? I mean, a local gamestore, or MTGO, or tourneys, or what?
Is everyone at your FNMs new to the game?  Winning on turn 5 often seems absurd, like your opponents aren't playing cards or something.   



May I enquire where it is that you play? I mean, a local gamestore, or MTGO, or tourneys, or what?



LGS, why?    
Is everyone at your FNMs new to the game?  Winning on turn 5 often seems absurd, like your opponents aren't playing cards or something.   


May I enquire where it is that you play? I mean, a local gamestore, or MTGO, or tourneys, or what?



LGS, why?    



I think the people that are seeing fast games from brutal decks are playing online, including myself. The meta is much broader there, I would assume. But I don't really know what it's like to draft at LGS, never having done it myself, so I can't really say more than that.

Certainly card evaluations can vary depending on a player's local meta. Heck, more than can, they should vary, that's just playing smart.
Then you've had insane luck, or no one at your table is drafting the aggro cards.  Turn 5 win in limited in insane and rare.  I've had turn 7, and i thought that was crazy. 



As per my Gruul thread, I won turn 5 on Tuesday and reguarly win turn 5 or 6 with Boros, Simic and, on Tuesday, Gruul.  The format is very fast.
From the graphs, very few Gatecrash games are ending by turn 5. If you were playing against someone who played no spells at all, and hit your curve perfectly with Boros:

Turn 1: Foundry Denizen
Turn 2: Wojek Halberdiers (18)
Turn 3: Warmind Infantry (13)
Turn 4: Spark Trooper (-2)

It's certainly possible to win by turn 4. But in a typical game you will not have a turn 1 play, nor will you have an opponent that misses their 1-3 plays. From the graphs the format is only a little faster than RtR. Specifically it looks like more games are ending on turns 7 and 8, and less games are ending after that point. The graph for games ending before turn 7 looks identical between Gatecrash and RtR.
From the graphs the format is only a little faster than RtR. Specifically it looks like more games are ending on turns 7 and 8, and less games are ending after that point. The graph for games ending before turn 7 looks identical between Gatecrash and RtR.



Nooooooooooooooooooo this is a fast format most games are decided on T1 how dare you use statistics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tongue Out

/sarcasm

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.


I think the people that are seeing fast games from brutal decks are playing online, including myself. The meta is much broader there, I would assume. But I don't really know what it's like to draft at LGS, never having done it myself, so I can't really say more than that.

Certainly card evaluations can vary depending on a player's local meta. Heck, more than can, they should vary, that's just playing smart.



I don't really know what you mean by it being broader.  I've never played MTGO, but perhaps there are a lot of newbies online?  My store has a fairly consistent group of strong players that have played for years, and i see Extort decks and some Simic/RUG-control decks drawing out matches to the time limit.  In matches like that, you would love to have this card as a one-of (especially when a promo Farseek  hangs in the balance! haha).    
MtGO players are considerably stronger (on average) than offline ones. When I used to play paper Magic my Limited rating was at 1950. The highest I've ever gotten my Limited rating online was 1875, and it's usually closer to 1800. In constructed it's even worse. The split there is offline 1900, online sub-1600. Everyone playing constructed online appears to have an unlimited supply of funding for their decks and much more experience playing them than I do.

I think the people that are seeing fast games from brutal decks are playing online, including myself. The meta is much broader there, I would assume. But I don't really know what it's like to draft at LGS, never having done it myself, so I can't really say more than that.

Certainly card evaluations can vary depending on a player's local meta. Heck, more than can, they should vary, that's just playing smart.



I don't really know what you mean by it being broader.  I've never played MTGO, but perhaps there are a lot of newbies online?  My store has a fairly consistent group of strong players that have played for years, and i see Extort decks and some Simic/RUG-control decks drawing out matches to the time limit.  In matches like that, you would love to have this card as a one-of (especially when a promo Farseek  hangs in the balance! haha).    



It's generally accepted that MTGO is much stiffer competition than a LGS

I think the people that are seeing fast games from brutal decks are playing online, including myself. The meta is much broader there, I would assume. But I don't really know what it's like to draft at LGS, never having done it myself, so I can't really say more than that.

Certainly card evaluations can vary depending on a player's local meta. Heck, more than can, they should vary, that's just playing smart.



I don't really know what you mean by it being broader.  I've never played MTGO, but perhaps there are a lot of newbies online?  My store has a fairly consistent group of strong players that have played for years, and i see Extort decks and some Simic/RUG-control decks drawing out matches to the time limit.  In matches like that, you would love to have this card as a one-of (especially when a promo Farseek  hangs in the balance! haha).    



It's generally accepted that MTGO is much stiffer competition than a LGS



Depends on the store. I play at a small store in southwestern China using only Chinese cards and a good percentage of these guys go to all the Gps in the Asia region and many of the PTQ's. Drafting ranges from medium to very difficult depending on who shows up, of course.

I had to go exclusively to 8-4 drafts as swiss was full of people making really silly mistakes and having mana screw all the time.

I would say drafting swissonline is on average the least beneficial way to play Magic The Gathering. Considerably weaker opponents than playing in just about any small store.

I've never been a part of a LGS so I can't give any opinions on that, but I would assume both strong and weak players frequent these sort of places.

Obviously large tournaments are the best way to test your skills as you wont be screwed by bad internet connections and other strange things. also online isn't realistic, as in a paper magic game you don't get prompted for your triggers.
 
bulletd Guidelines: 5.0: I will take this card no matter what. Creature 1 or playable 1 or hate 1.Archangel of Thune 4.5: Bomb and splashable. Creature 1-2, playable 1-2, removal 1. Jace, Memory Adept 4.0: Excellent first pick first pack, will sway me into same colors. Creatures 1-4, removal 1. Haunted Plate Mail 3.5: Excellent first pack pick two, will confirm colors or possibly sway into second color. Doom Blade 3.0: Good in-color addition, or splashable removal/creature. Creatures 3-9, removal 1-3. wall of Frost 2.5: Solid pick in-color; creatures 5-12, removal 3-5. Dark Favor 2.0: Creatures 10-16; removal 6-7. Elvish Mystic 1.5: My 23rd or 22nd card, depending on removal. Act of Treason 1.0: 23rd card if I don't maindeck an additional land. Lay of the Land 0.5: This card will sometimes be sideboarded in. Brave the Elements 0.0: I will shred this card for counters. Darksteel Forge

Depends on the store. I play at a small store in southwestern China using only Chinese cards and a good percentage of these guys go to all the Gps in the Asia region and many of the PTQ's. Drafting ranges from medium to very difficult depending on who shows up, of course.
 



The people who play at my store are the same way, there are always a few car pools driving half way across the country for GPs and PTQs. 

I didn't know online was supposed to be tougher, but okay.  I still don't understand how those opponents aren't able to stall out a game if they get behind if they're supposedly so good.  If everyone online is a good drafter, then how are you guys getting these consistent turn 5 aggro decks?      
It's not me saying online is tougher, it's something I've read in other places. As I said before, I've never played at LGS so I can't comment further.

I did say the meta would be much broader, which only makes sense. I don't see how that is a difficult concept?

Finally, nobody's saying the "turn 5" aggro deck is happening every match. But its a regularity that you need to be prepared for. And you ask how people are not able to stall out the game more? The answer to that is simple: they value cards such as the one in this thread, or primordials, or other expensive cards, too highly. If this is in your deck, then it can be in your starting hand. If this is in your starting hand against someone who got a good hand, you have an increased chance of not being able to play this card at all.
It's not me saying online is tougher, it's something I've read in other places. As I said before, I've never played at LGS so I can't comment further. I did say the meta would be much broader, which only makes sense. I don't see how that is a difficult concept? Finally, nobody's saying the "turn 5" aggro deck is happening every match. But its a regularity that you need to be prepared for. And you ask how people are not able to stall out the game more? The answer to that is simple: they value cards such as the one in this thread, or primordials, or other expensive cards, too highly. If this is in your deck, then it can be in your starting hand. If this is in your starting hand against someone who got a good hand, you have an increased chance of not being able to play this card at all.



I'm not trying to sound aggressive, i'm just not seeing what you guys are seeing.  Falcon says he wins regularly turn 5 or 6.

The meta being broader doesn't make sense to me, because we're still drafting the same cards.  I don't see how that's a difficult concept. 

And stalling doesn't mean valuing huge drops, but it's usually based around not dropping your hand as fast as possible and letting your opponent run out of steam.  That's when topdecking craziness like this thing wins a game.  This can be in your starting hand, but don't you mulligan?  Having 6 early playables and one large drop in your hand isn't a killer in any format.  (Unless you happen to only be playing one large  drop  i suppose.)  I'm not saying that Skarrg Goliath should ever take priority over 2 or 3 drops or evasive creatures.  But as a one-of, this card ends games, which is exactly what it should do for so much mana.