So,Gnomes. What do we do with them?

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Gnomes, the other small race.

Are they fey? Are they regular humaniods?
Beards or no beards?
And they Wizardy with favoritism to illusion? Or are they bardic? Druidy?
Do they tinker, cast, or both?
And how to they wield a hook-hammer?
Do they still have they addiction to Gems?


Honestly I never played a gnome outside of a video game. And I saw few gnome PCs in action. But people will freak if they don't get their gnomes, badgers, weasels, and rabbits day one.

Sub-races? Ability Adjustments? Free spells?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

The best that we can hope right now for the races that we haven't seen is that they'll work on the race's that we're already got to make them not terrible before moving on. We need a good groundwork before we can start worrying about other races, or at least that's how I see it. Want an awesome Gnome? Then we have to make sure we get awesome Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, and Humans first.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Well in my campaign they are banned as a PC race as (along with all Drow, Eladrin and Elves) they are an evil race of enemies of humanity.

So I want to see them barred from the PHB entirely, because I don't like them and they will waste space in the PHB which can be used for things I want.

They will also confuse new players with too many options, clearly a more restricted range of races (based on the "fae = evil" principle) is far better so that we don't make the experience a bad one for people coming into D&D.

Further if they have Gnomes in the PHB then I will have to deal with players who feel "entitled" to use them because nothing in the PHB should be optional and I should never have to make those kinds of decisions for myself as a DM.

But even more importantly I might have to play alongside Gnomes in community or convention play and simply knowing that someone else is having fun while playing one of the twisted little monsters makes me physically sick.

Overall I think that they have no role in D&D at all, are not part of the "traditional feel" for D&D which the designers are attempting to create with Next and should not appear in the PHB. 
Finding out what it is to be a gnome is still important regardless if the races are fixed yet.

You still have to figure out what the key differences between gnomes and halflings are. What the differences between rock and forest gnomes are. Do they get cantrips? And how to get hook hammers in their tiny little hands?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Finding out what it is to be a gnome is still important regardless if the races are fixed yet. You still have to figure out what the key differences between gnomes and halflings are. What the differences between rock and forest gnomes are. Do they get cantrips? And how to get hook hammers in their tiny little hands?

Well, regardless, keep all the cultural stuff out. That means no hook hammers, no alchemy, no tinkering, and no spells that aren't specifically innate, at least not as part of the mechanics. Beyond that, though, I think that they should have some inherent supernatural abilities. I'd personally vote for the ability to walk through earth and stone, but that may be too traditional an interpretation for D&D. I'm otherwise a pretty big fan of their 4E depiction, so some inherent illusion abilities seem like a good idea, maybe some simpler ones like those they had in 3.5.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Maybe they would be ok if they were marked with a black star and the word "optional" in grey across all their images and text.

But really they should not be included in the PHB at all, it's unfair to ask me (as a DM) to have to ban them from my own game.

Everyone else who wants to play a Gnome should miss out because I don't want them. 
The background can be changed by gamers. 

The true challenge is a good game desing, and it´s the key. Balance of power isn´t enough, we need open doors to more options. If almost always the gnomes are only rogues or illusionist wizards the design is wrong.

We need racial traits what they can be interesting for all type of gamers. For example bonus for illusion magic should be only for racial traits because a player wish create a gnome without illusory magic. 

Gnomes and halflings are a challenge for game designers because they are little size races, they don´t usually wear heavy armor. 

You can bet lots of players wish a no-rogue halfling (for example a ranger halfing) and no-illusionist gnome (for example a factotum gnome or a spellthief gnome, or a beguiler gnome). 

My suggestion is allow a little list of optional racial traits and the player choose one (or two). For example spending a vacian spell to use a spontaneous power.

 
 

Hoggle, character from Jim Henson´s movie "Labirynth" (with Jennifer Cornelly and David Bowie).

* If a female gnome was a D&D magical girl... how would she be?

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

bonus for illusion magic

Yes, that should be left out, certainly, but that doesn't mean leaving illusion out completely. A bonus to save against illusions, for example, is useful to characters of any class or role. The 4E Gnome also had an illusory encounter power that was useful to all characters, and even 3.5 gave the Gnome some innate spell-like abilities that any character could make use of.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
For Gnomes I was thinking:

Small
Low Light Vision
20ft speed
Minor Illusion cantrip (CHA based)
Can wield double weapons despite being small
Can speak to animals

Rock Gnome:
+1 Con
+2 AC

Forest Gnome
+1 Cha
+1 to illusion DCs

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Minor Illusion cantrip (CHA based)

Why CHA based when we could easily have something not based on any stat at all?

Can wield double weapons despite being small

This should be dealt with by fixing the weapon sizing rules, where the real problem is, not through racial features.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
My group uses gnomes extensively.  There's not a campaign that goes by where there's not a gnome PC or significant gnome NPC.  We love the little buggers.  In every MMO we play that has gnomes, we always make gnome characters as this huge extended family.

So, if we don't have gnomes, we feel the game is incomplete.  We like both 3E and 4E gnomes.  We're not into the David the Gnome type.  We like small, quirky people with weird customs that seem extremely scatterbrained most of the time, with maybe perhaps a slight flirting with real insanity.

In my campaign world, I use the fae gnomes, but they have personalities like EQ gnomes.  Not every one of them is a tinkerer (in fact most aren't), but the race is highly intelligent (if a bit ... touched), and that is why the fomorians love to enslave them; they're extremely crafty folk.  When they can escape enslavement, they get to use their intelligence for the betterment of the entire world (or so they think).

I don't care if the David-type gnome is a subclass, but there should be at least one more that is more like the 3E or 4E gnome.
@Admiral-JCJF

You, Sir; are one of the tolerant people arround here I so adore.

It is , of course, an immense effort for you to as a DM to speak 7 words to your players:
"Gnomes are not allowed at my table"
Oh, the pain for you as a DM -  yes it is totally understandable that all ather gamers who like Gnomes should not be allowed to play them right from the gate. How can we dare to place that burdon on your mighty shoulders.

I know this wil be sort of a shock to you but very often when I read what you demand of the game I think to myself must that be.
But, as I know there are many ways to play D&D. Therefore, I accept the things you want in the game and I never said: Only optional at best and never in the core PHB.

So I just ask the same of you, if - oh mighty overlord - that is not to much to be asked.

Thank you very much for your kindness.

@Admiral-JCJF

You, Sir; are one of the tolerant people arround here I so adore.

It is , of course, an immense effort for you to as a DM to speak 7 words to your players:
"Gnomes are not allowed at my table"
Oh, the pain for you as a DM -  yes it is totally understandable that all ather gamers who like Gnomes should not be allowed to play them right from the gate. How can we dare to place that burdon on your mighty shoulders.

I know this wil be sort of a shock to you but very often when I read what you demand of the game I think to myself must that be.
But, as I know there are many ways to play D&D. Therefore, I accept the things you want in the game and I never said: Only optional at best and never in the core PHB.

So I just ask the same of you, if - oh mighty overlord - that is not to much to be asked.

Thank you very much for your kindness.



I really hope you're just going along with Admiral's immensely sarcastic post.
Personally, I wouldn't miss 'em if they weren't there.  But there are some who (inexplicably) really like them - so they probably ought to be in.'



But just for the record:  There is probably a finite number of races that will make it into the book.  So would you rather have Gnomes or Dragonborn?  Would you rather have Gnomes or Tieflings?  Would you rather have Gnomes... or Kenku?  Would you rather have Gnomes ... or warforged?  Would you rather have Gnomes... or kobolds?


Or even:  Would you rather have Gnomes.... or Yuan-ti? 

If the gnome were not in the game - what race might take its place?  And might that race be more interesting and more appealing to a wider range of players than the gnome?           


Publishing is close to zero-sum.  Everything that goes in means something else goes out.  It isn't  a choice of "gnome or no gnome"; it is a choice of "gnome" or "some other race that isn't a gnome".


Personally - my vote is for a short section (about as long as a single race writeup, maybe two) that has 'official' stats for a dozen or so 'monstrous' races with minimal fluff (the racial fluff is in the MM).  Each entry might consist of only their ability score modifier and their racial features - and not much more.  And the gnome can go there.  


Carl
bonus for illusion magic

Yes, that should be left out, certainly, but that doesn't mean leaving illusion out completely. A bonus to save against illusions, for example, is useful to characters of any class or role. The 4E Gnome also had an illusory encounter power that was useful to all characters, and even 3.5 gave the Gnome some innate spell-like abilities that any character could make use of.



I agree, a save bonus for illusion is good for all gnomes PCs. I had thought the bonus for illusion magic could be a racial traits. 

A racial trait could be a extra racial trait. It would give flexibility without break balance of power.

* I imagine female gnomes like a mixture of actress Lucy DeVito and characters from PopPixie cartoon.

* Do you rebember the boggans and nockers from Changeling: the dreaming and the wizened from Changeling: the lost?

* We shouln´t forget the option of "animal´s friends", a exotic animal companion like a bling dog mount.

I suggest a brainstorm looking for old cartoons about little humanoid like smurfs, gummi bears, trollz, poppixie, the biskitts, snorkels, Monchhichi to get inspiration.

* I don´t wish imagine my gnomes like happy cute bears but good people who has seen the suffering but they are survivered and they try be happy despites the painful past and menaces. They have lost the innocence but not the true illusion to live and enjoy the company of loved beings.



Picture from "Willow".

* A gnome subrace should be like tinkers from Dragonlance. 
 
 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

@Crimson_Concerto

Minor Illusion uses a DC saving throw so you have to give it an ability score to be based on. Maybe we can make it Forest Gnome only with the Charisma bonus. But then what do you eplace the base gnome with.

Again if you fix the double wapons, what do you replace it with?

What is a D&D gnome stat wise?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I really hope you're just going along with Admiral's immensely sarcastic post.

I know I was taking it a bit too serious until the second post...then I got it

For myself, gnomes are distinct from halflings, and I definately feel they can exist in the PHB1 just fine. I like the David-the-gnome theme, as well as the classic D&D illusion-centric gnome. The tinker gnome IMO somewhat clashes with how I envision dwarves (being the master craftsmen), but I since most of the time there's a fair amount of humor included in their inventions, both races could share that common trait (as an option). I definately want to an emphasis on craftsmen dwarves, however.

I'm really not big on the current implementation of subraces, and I hope WotC does more of a Pathfinder approach to racial features.

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I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
and we can also look at what gnomes would look like.

To me looks wise gnomes had over exegerated facial features, big noses  and ears.
When i looked and concept art and saw the picture (that turned out to be a halfling concept) with the over sized head my first reaction was o that is a intresting direction to take the looks for the gnome only found out later that it was suposed to be a halfling.
 
What is a D&D gnome stat wise?

Con/Int/Cha for ability mods. I don't think we need another small, nimble race, and gnomes have a history of a con bonus, so I'd be fine with Con being the constant bonus, and Int or Cha for the subraces (with a fervent hope they redo how subraces work).

Magic Dual Color Test
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
I also have 2 difrent origins in my mind for the gnome.

one would be a fay origin.

The other would be a of splitt of the dwarves, both like mining but dwarves focus on metals gnomes on gems.
As gems are often spell components this evolved the gknomes into being more atuned with using magic then the dwarf
 
David the gnome? I thought you never seen that cartoon in your country. Or do you talk about the book?



Picture from "Gnome named gnorm".

----

Please, the background of D&D leprechaun is too annoying for me (too happy). Only the want be keep out of all while they enjoy driking and music. In the demiplane of dread they wouldn´t survive for more a year. 

* About background we need something to cause empathy. For example the marginalization, like the classroom nerds. They have been the lest popular of core races...let´s take adventage of it, I like the idea (from 4th ed) they were a opressed people by giants but they could rebel and get their freedom. They try get more respect, esteem by the rest of people. They aren´t stupy nor aren´t as weak as lot of people suposse. They are one of the most creative comunity, for example the first architects to try build a vertical forest or tower with trees.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I think the various gnome achretypes would work fine as subraces...
Forge Gnomes (tinkers)
Rock Gnomes (burrowing)
Fey Gnomes (illusions)
What about Sverf.. sverfnebbims..sverfneb..bib.. deep gnomes.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

What about Sverf.. sverfnebbims..sverfneb..bib.. deep gnomes.


Traditionally, those have been NPC-only, but sure.  They'd be a subrace, like drow and duergar
What about Sverf.. sverfnebbims..sverfneb..bib.. deep gnomes.

The spell checker eats them

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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
True story. I once roleplayed a barbarian who "accidentally" killed a group of sverfneblin NPCs just so I never had to say the name again. The DM gave me penalties for saying "deep gnomes". So "Oops. Me axe felled on svenibbim's head. Oops. It happen'gain. Sowwy. Me no dexterous."

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I like the idea of tinker gnomes but steam technology is better only for settins like Spelljammer or Eberron, or that flying city from Mystara. 

* What about springgans, the gnome´s cousins?

 




I don´t know about the background of ones of 4th edition.. 

* Do you rebember the jerrern, the evil anthropophagi halflings from "book of vile darkness"? Let´s imagine they wish hunt and kill the "happy people" like leprechauns and korreds...(because they are too unbearable and as corny as a pink casket, I don´t like that stupy background of "we are happy, driking, playing music, singing and dancing all the time while the peasants die hungry for the winter or eaten by werewolfs").

* How are sorcerers gnomes with fay bloodline?

* We need a swashbuckler fighter subclass for halflings and gnomes warriors without heavy armours. 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I don't think one really has to choose.

If Elves can cover both wood elfs AND high elves AND dark elves...

I don't see any reason why Gnomes can't have both Forest Gnomes with illusionary magic and animal helpers and Rock Gnomes who are slightly more mechanically and technologically advanced than the rest of the world is expected to be.

Although the later concept can really get out-of-hand as we have seen MMORPG settings.

And I would much rather see Gnomes included than a lot of the races that Wizard of the Coast added. Gnomes can work pretty much anywhere, but...

Well, you can't really get away with Tieflings as a norm without everyone suddenly being cool with demons which is just weird and unsettling. That really should be a race that one comes across only occassionally and most of those encountered should have been bent towards evil due to their demonic psyches. Putting it in the Monster Manual but fully fleshed out PC racial stats would be the best way to handle this one.

 Warforged really don't work in any campaign setting that isn't sufficiently evolved in the high steam-punk industry and have giant factories churning out sentient robots and letting them loose for reasons that make no sense outside Ebberron. Making them universal to all settings simply undermines and damages those settings. One can come up with a reasonably excusable backstory for something equivalent to appear as some really impossibly rarely encountered oddity in other campaign worlds due to some eccentric wizard's tinkering or something... but I would imagine all campaign settings would be balanced and for that once in a century character, nothing would stop one from making a Warforged character once the Ebberron book comes out and then using it in other campaign settings with DM's permission. There just shouldn't be the message that it is a universal campaign race that putting it in the core book would do.

And the Dragonborn... wow... that one really doesn't sit well with me. It takes what is likely the single greatest concept for a big bag enemy race that could and should make Orcs and Drow look like friendly, cuddly teddy bears in comparison, the kind of race whose armies could threaten to just overrun the world, a single squad could easily burn down a village and kill everyone within in only a matter of hours, a single member could perhaps take on the whole party.... and then really does them injustice by taking away half their dragon traits, cripples and demeans them and then turns them into goody-goodies who are the bestest of best buddies with all the humans and dwarfs and elfs in the world so they could never be evil or antagonistic to any party ever!... and puts prissy first level ones in every damn town as blacksmiths and sheep herders.
How does one start with an idea as intimidating as "Dragonmen!" and end up with that end result? And now no one can actually do proper Dragonmen in their campaign setting ever because it can't ever help but come across as toothless and have no impact at all on anyone who has ever played 4E. Talk about just utterly ruining a concept for everyone involved.

And the races that appeared later in 4E or the dozen or so that appeared in 3E and few people noticed-- I really don't think any of them really caught on as much as one could have hoped.

About the only things I can think of that might legitimately stand out as a race that should pop up as adventurers in virtually all campaign worlds nearly as often as Gnomes might be Orcs/Half-Orcs and Hobgoblins/Half-Hobgoblins. But the interest in these concepts is really practically nil it seems when you get down to it. But those races are so prevelent everywhere that no one need question much when a few of them kind of give up on the majority of their peoples' goals and decide to go adventuring for personal profit.

Githzerai can be pretty cool, but their background as a race that lives on another plane.. it really stretches disbelief for them, particularly at low levels, to pop up on the prime material plane often enough to be considered a core race. Ditto for Gensai.

Golliaths and Deva could have been okay-- but Golliaths came off as a bit bland (though that seems to be okay for Halflings) and Deva didn't seem to really catch on much, though I think they were a better take on half-angels than the Aasimar were.

So, yeah--- nothing deserves to be a race in the core book more than Gnomes. 

@Admiral-JCJF

I like the way you think, but in the spirit of inclusiveness, I have a suggestion:

Simply give all the gnome stuff (whatever that is) to dwarves. Anybody who wants to do gnomish things can just make the right subrace of dwarf, like "tinker dwarf," or "gem dwarf." And then people like yourself wouldn't have to suffer with them polluting the new edition.

You could also keep the name alive by making "gnome" a subrace of halflings. They wouldn't be gnomish as people know it, but you couldn't say they're not in 5E.
Well in my campaign they are banned as a PC race as (along with all Drow, Eladrin and Elves) they are an evil race of enemies of humanity.

So I want to see them barred from the PHB entirely, because I don't like them and they will waste space in the PHB which can be used for things I want.

They will also confuse new players with too many options, clearly a more restricted range of races (based on the "fae = evil" principle) is far better so that we don't make the experience a bad one for people coming into D&D.

Further if they have Gnomes in the PHB then I will have to deal with players who feel "entitled" to use them because nothing in the PHB should be optional and I should never have to make those kinds of decisions for myself as a DM.

But even more importantly I might have to play alongside Gnomes in community or convention play and simply knowing that someone else is having fun while playing one of the twisted little monsters makes me physically sick.

Overall I think that they have no role in D&D at all, are not part of the "traditional feel" for D&D which the designers are attempting to create with Next and should not appear in the PHB. 



@Admiral-JCJF I like the way you think, but in the spirit of inclusiveness, I have a suggestion: Simply give all the gnome stuff (whatever that is) to dwarves. Anybody who wants to do gnomish things can just make the right subrace of dwarf, like "tinker dwarf," or "gem dwarf." And then people like yourself wouldn't have to suffer with them polluting the new edition. You could also keep the name alive by making "gnome" a subrace of halflings. They wouldn't be gnomish as people know it, but you couldn't say they're not in 5E.






You're right gnomes just don't have the same kind of legacy as humans, elves, dwarves and halflings. Adding gnomes to the game totally destroyed my sense of verisimilitude. Humans are real, tall skinny humans are real, short fat humans are real, and really short humans with hairy feet are real. But magicy really short humans with normal feet are unacceptable to me and therefore should not be available to anyone.

I think WotC should produce two separate versions of the game one for the people who like the "true" non gnome D&D and one for gnome people.

Or maybe just give them a board game. They obviously don't role play if they use gnomes. I know for my group role playing was negatively effected by their introduction.

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There is a nice little self created devide here. Shame there can't be more acceptance instead. I feel that is where the future of the game should be.

All this vitrol, pushing away, retroactive retaliation, and premptive striking needs to stop.

I keep trying but some won't let things go. Will you?

 

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus. Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.

You're right gnomes just don't have the same kind of legacy as humans, elves, dwarves and halflings. Adding gnomes to the game totally destroyed my sense of verisimilitude. Humans are real, tall skinny humans are real, short fat humans are real, and really short humans with hairy feet are real. But magicy really short humans with normal feet are unacceptable to me and therefore should not be available to anyone.

You failed to mention their big noses and ears. You must walk 1000 steps as a gnome as penance...

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This thread was good for a laugh. Thanks guys.
I'm positively sick of munchkin powergamers trying to shoehorn "kewl" crazy races into core. Anybody familiar with the "Oz" series knows that gnomes are VILLAINS and making them PCs just so powergamers can have their crazy broken bard builds is NOT what D&D is about. D&D is about STORIES, and in stories, gnomes are bad guys. Or are books not stories now???? Daggum kids with their "Lord of the Rings" TV program making them think that you could have a fantasy world where a human wouldn't kill a gnome on sight.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Put them at the foot of your garden.

Just kidding, I love Gnomes, I would like the Rock (dwarf-like, and big noses, please!), Forest (fey-like), and Svifneblin, right out of the gate.

I would keep Gnomes before Halflings/Hobbits, as the latter are a purely Tolkien deal (same with Orcs).
Edit.

Put them at the foot of your garden.

Just kidding, I love Gnomes, I would like the Rock (dwarf-like, and big noses, please!), Forest (fey-like), and Svifneblin, right out of the gate.

I would keep Gnomes before Halflings/Hobbits, as the latter are a purely Tolkien deal (same with Orcs).




Rock: +1 to Int.

Forest: + 1 to Cha.

Svirfneblin: + 1 to Con. 
The gnome is one of my favorite races in any edition.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

The gnome is one of my favorite races in any edition.




And if people are in doubt as to wether gnomes can be badasses, check out The Companions of the Dead.
I've always liked the gnome as a PC race.    By default we need rock, forest, and svirfneblin gnomes in the PHB.    

Let the campaign setting restrict or include more races as needed.  

oh and all hail the Autognome! 

 




Gnomes may be cool. We shouldn´t understimate their creativity. They can´t be more dangerous that McGyver in the set of Tool Time.

Only we need a interesting racial traits, open to different styles of players, with different variants, and good selection of racial feats. 



Asuras, the cute no-gnomes from Guild Wars 2.


Trollz, a cartoon serie.



Picture from "Pop Pixie". 

I am thinking about a D&D Kre-o cartoon where main characters are gnomes, halflings and other little size race (kobolds, goblins, dromite, fraal..).

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Finding out what it is to be a gnome is still important regardless if the races are fixed yet. You still have to figure out what the key differences between gnomes and halflings are. What the differences between rock and forest gnomes are. Do they get cantrips? And how to get hook hammers in their tiny little hands?

Well, regardless, keep all the cultural stuff out. That means no hook hammers, no alchemy, no tinkering, and no spells that aren't specifically innate, at least not as part of the mechanics. Beyond that, though, I think that they should have some inherent supernatural abilities. I'd personally vote for the ability to walk through earth and stone, but that may be too traditional an interpretation for D&D. I'm otherwise a pretty big fan of their 4E depiction, so some inherent illusion abilities seem like a good idea, maybe some simpler ones like those they had in 3.5.



+1 for the 4e gnome, mechanically speaking. Fluff wise, I'd like them to throw a bit more Races of Stone Gnome on it, though.

And I'd rather have some kind of stone walk and maybe abillity to speak with burrowing animals or something than the auto illusion magic.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
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