Master of All Spells and Metamagic

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Hey guys, i am trying to optimize a flavour build which flavour consists of a mage who entered a quest searching all spells, after many years (and reaching level 20) he finally got all wizard spells in the game, but for that he can't have proibited schools (i know it's possible to emulate spells of one school with spells from another, but that's not the point, knowing all spells is the flavour and the mainly objective of the build).

Happens that he is a powerful metamagic user too, and i can only think of Incantatrix, but Incantatrix abdicates of one school, so i have 2 questions:

1)Is there a way of get that school back?

2)If the answer above is "no", is there any powerful metamagic PrC like Incantatrix that doesn't lose schools?
Why not straight Elf Wizard (generalist racial ACF from RotW) 20? It gives your 4 Metamagic feats for free, at least.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Cuz i wanna be cheap with metamagics, not just have a bunch of them, but **** things with them.
If we're going for Flavor builds, I'd say this sounds a lot like what Spellhording Dragons (a template from Dragon #313 pg 74) are about. It turns a dragon's spellcasting to Wizards-like rather than normal Sorcerer-like and gives a bonus to Int. Not exactly "teh op's", but at the point where your wizard knows has all spells from all Wizard spells from all books in their spellbook, they are already able to eat everything short of deities for breakfast or are quickly murdered for their spellbook by someone who can.
If you want flavorwise a wizartd, that knows all spells, why should he go Metamagic? Cause with Metamagic, you focus on some few spells and use them more often like, lvl1 Magic missel, lvl3 empowered Magic Missile, lvl 7 twin empowered Magic Missile and so on.

For the caster itself, i would suggest Domain Wizard from Unearthed Arcana, giving you some new spells known without paying for it and, if I remember correctly, even some spells not on the wizards spelllist.

There also is the Mage of The Arcane Order in Complete Arcane, giving you some known spells for free, 2 Metamagic feats and some really nice versatility.

Or for really powering Metamagic, go Ultimate Magus, to boost your Metamagic spells. With Practice Spellcaster on Sorcerer, you can push your wizard level even more. As race i would go with Vaulnaen Illumian, for even more versatility.

Flavorwise, the Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion would fit, because your char is alway on the search for more knowledge.
Lost Empires of Faerûn contains a feat named Arcane Transfiguration that allows you to use the prohibited school normally.

I would consider two levels of Geometer so you can scribe scrolls into your spellbook more easily.
the Dweomerkeeper can also reduce metamagic cost at lv 10, but the requirements may not suit your goal.
Lost Empires of Faerûn contains a feat named Arcane Transfiguration that allows you to use the prohibited school normally.




I almost got what wanted with this feat, but it needs a specialist Wizard, which Incantatrix isn't despite abdicating one school ;(

Seeron



Mage of Arcane Order looks nice for having all the spells (Spellpool and such), but doesn't help with the metamagics that what is really missing in the build (since he already has all spells in his spellbook).

What you guys think about Spelldancer?

It applies metamagics really easily, but has FOUR bad feats as requirements ;(

Other option is to get 1 level of Cleric + Alternate Spell Source (from some Dragon Magazine) so i can apply Divine Metamagic on my arcane spells.
Incantatrix only prevents learning. Just fill your spellbook before taking the class, and you don't have a problem.

Or just be an Elven Generalist Domain Wizard. It's a great deal. Better than Focused Specialist under most circumstances.  
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Thanks for the tips!

But are you certain about Incantatrix?

I checked, and says it works as school specialization, then i checked school specialization on SRD, and one part says:

"but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools"

Which is exactly what you said, learning before becomes prohibited, but other part says:

"Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands"

Now we are talking about casting and not just learning ;(

www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizar...
All the text says is that the wizard cannot cast them from wands or scrolls. It says nothing about already learned spells. This position is further supported by the fact that a feat lets specialists cast banned spells, although not to the same degree. If I had to hazard a guess at the intent, it would be that Incantators were supposed to keep already know spells, but just not bother with the spells in the banned school. Of course, RAW goes a bit further, but that's my 2 cents.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
That's true, but what makes me doubtful is "can't EVEN cast".

But after seeing the whole context this interpretation seems valid, so i guess i'm gonna give it a shot.

Domain Wizard + Incantatrix + Anima Mage.

Then maybe i take 1 level of cleric for Dweomerkeeper, or even 3 levels for Initiate of Mystra.

Now was left to me find an immunity to flat-flooted, so i can Celerity (or even the 10th level ability of Anima Mage) to "win Initiative".
I guess i'll have to Persist Foresight since is hard to find a way to be innate/passive immune to flat-flooted.

In the end i decided to go with a dip Cleric level + Alternative Source Spell to get both Divine Metamagic and Dweomerkeeper, i'm still thinking about going dipper (Cleric 3), but so far the build is:

Human – Ocular Spell, and The Frog God’s Fane (Skill Focus in Knowledge: History, or Nature, or Religion)


Level 1 – Wizard 1 – Reach Spell
Level 2 – Cleric 1 – Magic and Planning Domain (Extend Spell)
Level 3 – Binder 1 – Improved Binding
Level 4 – Human Paragon 1
Level 5 – Human Paragon 2 – Bonus Feat (Persistent Spell)
Level 6 – Dweomerkeeper 1 – Alternative Source Spell
Level 7 – Anima Mage 1
Level 8 – Anima Mage 2
Level 9 – Anima Mage 3 – Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
Level 10 – Anima Mage 4
Level 11 – Anima Mage 5
Level 12 – Anima Mage 6 – Divine Metamagic (Ocular Spell)
Level 13 – Anima Mage 7
Level 14 – Anima Mage 8
Level 15 – Anima Mage 9 – Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell)
Level 16 – Anima Mage 10
Level 17 – Dweomerkeeper 2
Level 18 – Loremaster 1 – Quicken Spell and Secret: Applicable Knowledge (Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell)
Level 19 – Dweomerkeeper 3
Level 20 – Dweomerkeeper 4


In such a case of Cleric 3 i should replace Binder and Human Paragon for another Cleric levels, so i should replace Improved Binding with Bind Vestige and then expend 2 more feats with Improved Bind Vestige and Initiate of Mystra, and Clerics of Mystra don't get Planning Domain, so i would lose a LOT of feats.

Immunity to flatfootedness is best acquired via a Legacy item, IMO (assuming all books are open).

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Elf Wizard Substitution + Domain Wizard is quite a nice alternative to specialisation, if that's what you're after. Of course, no Human bonus feat or Human Paragon then, just mentioning it.
…he already has all spells in his spellbook…

In his 6 spellbooks you mean. I estimate it takes 5,786 pages to write all wizard spells without any form of compression.

The hell are you doing, bro? Actually taking levels of Binder for Anima Mage? And Multiclassing before Dweomerkeeper?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
@Mast: Geometer! Every spell is a page long.
Two... Ah ah ah! Three.. Ah ah ah! Four... Ah ah ah! Six... Ah ah ah!!
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Punctuation exists for a reason, and your neglect of the shift key is to the point where Social Services should be involved.
Thanks for all help!

The hell are you doing, bro? Actually taking levels of Binder for Anima Mage?



Feat economy.

And Multiclassing before Dweomerkeeper?



Well, i could only take Dweomerkeeper levels after level 5, so that's it.

But if it's about progressing Anima Mage before Dweomerkeeper, then i can just switch the last Dweomerkeeper levels for sooner and Anima Mage for later.
Snip

No, it's about you throwing away caster levels for no real gain. Binder, Cleric, and Human Paragon are all completely unneeded, and detrimental to the build.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I still get 9th spells and a lot of feats, buf if those 3 caster levels are real problem is just about pick Practiced Spellcaster instead one of the feats.

And if the late spell progression is the real problem then it's just skip that Binder level (at cost of 2 feats), replace Human Paragon with Mindbender and whatever else, and ignore the Initiate of Mystra version of this build which would have 3 late levels of spell progression anyway.
The problem isn't the lost caster levels per se, it's the lost progression, which PS doesn't help with.

Of course, if retraining is allowed, then go for binder, and retrain the level away once you have Anima Mage, as it qualifies itself. 

Also, Southern Magicia is hella pro.

Basically, you're trying too hard. It's not going to be as effective as a simple, elegant build. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I agree with you (it happens) on the "trying too hard" part, but I suspect he will actually use it directly at level 20, in which case the progression matters little.

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Exactly, i'm looking more for the end of the build than all the path, but hey, that's just me.

But even if i try to avoid the low progression, i'm still gonna have some problems:

-Dweomer needs 1 cleric level (unless i get Magic Domain somehow + Southern Magician, but then i lose one more feat - Extend Spell from Planning Domain).
-If i enter Anima Mage without Binder 1 i need to expend one more feat.
-If i don't go with Human Paragon, i lose its extra feat, and then i go with Wizard 4/Cleric 1 which i personally consider weird, since Wizard's level 4 doesn't fullfil requirements as level 1 and 3 does, and doesn't give me any benefit as level 5 (which would be bonus feat). I mean, Wizard 4 is an empty level.
A casting level is never empty from our perspective (Human Paragon 1, however, is deader than dead). You have to realize that your build looks inelegant because you lose 3 CLs early, so any time before level 20 it's terrible compared to most other wizard builds.

Switching back to your level 20 perspective, though, your dips all over the place make sense, so feel free to keep them.
But why not finish Dweomerkeeper and leave Anima Mage unfinished?

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Human Paragon 1 is dead, but Human Paragon 2 is not. With only 5 leves to get to Dweomerkeeper i can't work with Wizard 5 (cuz i need a Cleric dip) which would give me an extra feat, but i can work with Wizard 4 which gives me nothing besides caster level (and i am not saying this is bad), or i could work with Human Paragon which gives that extra feat and spellcasting level too (even if i lose one spellcasting level on level 1).


And the choice about which PrC maximize is because Dweomerkeeper only gain the same abilities all the levels with more daily uses, but Anima Mage gains new abilities. And Supernatural Spell 1/day is good enough for me.
Yes, I understood what you are doing. Again, I was merely presenting our perspective, which is "1 feat for 1 CL is a terrible trade... unless you already have 9th level spells". Which you do, since you play at level 20.

The Dweomerkeeper 10 ability is pretty good... but I guess you're using DMM with tons of nightsticks? So in that case it mostly saves you gold.

Looking at your feats, I see DMM:Ocular and DMM:Reach but neither Ocular nor Reach themselves. Bug?

OoP's characters
My current character in Real Adventures Play-by-Post games:

 

  • Maeve in The Lost History of Istar


 
Hmm, the main benefit of Anima Mage is probably the binding, but it depends what vestiges you want access to. It may be that more Dweomerkeeper is a better bet (though then why use Anima at all, I guess). More Vestige Metamagic is nice, and the capstone ability is pretty cool (immediate, no-V/S-components casting 1/day) but then more Supernatural and Mantle are also pretty sweet. And, of course, the cheaper metamagic, but maybe that's less awesome for you than it usually it.

Another option would be something like a 7/7 split. You get 2 vestige metamagic and double vestige binding (2 at once) but still get more Dweomerkeeper abilities... but then you're kind of neither here nor there. 
Yes, I understood what you are doing. Again, I was merely presenting our perspective, which is "1 feat for 1 CL is a terrible trade... unless you already have 9th level spells". Which you do, since you play at level 20.



Exactly, but fortunately it's not hard to change the build if the one using it wants something with a better progress instead of a better end.

The Dweomerkeeper 10 ability is pretty good... but I guess you're using DMM with tons of nightsticks? So in that case it mostly saves you gold.



Exactly again xD

Supernatural Wish can get me Nightsticks for free if i am not in the moody for expend my gold, and then DMM + Vestige Metamagic compensates for Dweomerkeeper 10.

Looking at your feats, I see DMM:Ocular and DMM:Reach but neither Ocular nor Reach themselves. Bug?



Reach is at level 1 and Ocular is my Human feat, so i put it right after "Human - " instead of putting it at level 1 like most people do.

Hmm, the main benefit of Anima Mage is probably the binding, but it depends what vestiges you want access to. It may be that more Dweomerkeeper is a better bet (though then why use Anima at all, I guess). More Vestige Metamagic is nice, and the capstone ability is pretty cool (immediate, no-V/S-components casting 1/day) but then more Supernatural and Mantle are also pretty sweet. And, of course, the cheaper metamagic, but maybe that's less awesome for you than it usually it.

Another option would be something like a 7/7 split. You get 2 vestige metamagic and double vestige binding (2 at once) but still get more Dweomerkeeper abilities... but then you're kind of neither here nor there. 



Actually i'm running Anima Mage 10 more because of its capstone ability, since i already have DMM for all metamagics i have (so Vestige Metamagic isn't that necessary), i know it's only 1/day and more Supernatural Spells would be much better, but i guess 1/day Supernatural Spell is already gamebreaking enough and i just love Anima Mage capstone ability ;3

Besides, if i get more of Dweomerkeeper, then i'll have a lot of daily uses of the same abilities, and with Anima Mage 10 at least i have 1 daily use of a completely new ability that i find very nice.
Well yeah, Supernatural Wish already cracks the game open if the "no components" thing is taken literally... yay for unlimited free stuff!
If you're using SU wishes, then you can just shuffle around whatever you need. It isn't hard. Meanwhile, you're running around with a sub-optimal build.

Also, Anima Mage is garbage compared to Incantatrix. Seriously. Metamagic Effect>>>>>>>>crappy wannabe metamagic. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
If you're using SU wishes, then you can just shuffle around whatever you need. It isn't hard. Meanwhile, you're running around with a sub-optimal build.



Well, it's possible to get all those levels of Dweomerkeeper before Anima Mage so SU wishes will compensate for the sub-optimal spell progression, anyway i'm not trying to abuse all that SU wishes can do, and i'm looking at the build more at its end than its progression.

Also, Anima Mage is garbage compared to Incantatrix. Seriously. Metamagic Effect>>>>>>>>crappy wannabe metamagic. 



I know, but i'm not relying on Vestige Metamagic to compensate Metamagic Effect, i'm relying on DMM (unless you're saying this is crappy too), and if i go Incantatrix i'm not so sure about your interpretation of SRD which let me use the already learned spells after i get Proigbited School.

If wasn't for that i would already get into Incantatrix for sure.
Well, it's possible to get all those levels of Dweomerkeeper before Anima Mage so SU wishes will compensate for the sub-optimal spell progression, anyway i'm not trying to abuse all that SU wishes can do, and i'm looking at the build more at its end than its progression.

And if your objective is SU wishes, I can throw together a better build in, ,say, five minutes.

And rereqs mean your featsare trash. Shuffling, bro. It's cool.
I know, but i'm not relying on Vestige Metamagic to compensate Metamagic Effect, i'm relying on DMM (unless you're saying this is crappy too)

Anima Mage is crap here, and DMM is useless incomparison, especially considering how your lowered CL makes your buffs super vulnerable.
and if i go Incantatrix i'm not so sure about your interpretation of SRD which let me use the already learned spells after i get Proigbited School.

There is no "interpretaion." This is fact. It is incredibly explicit, and any claim otherwise is simply, nay laughably wrong.

So, basically, ITT: Giving up or ignoring class features to make a very, very shoddy immitation of something that could be done in three levels without all this waste.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I seemed to remember it that, yes, you could use previously-learned spells after getting into Incantatrix, though I'd be cautious of assuming that would extend to spells of a higher level than you could cast. I'd also be tempted, personally, to allow Spell Repreive, but by RAW I don't think that's a go. So I can see you staying away from Incantatrix.

As for Su Wishes, well, if you're using those the game is already over anyway, in which case the build becomes a bit moot. 
As for Su Wishes, well, if you're using those the game is already over anyway, in which case the build becomes a bit moot. 

This. I mean, if that's on the table, you just grabe a free action ring of at-will wishing and roflstomp the universe. Wish loops and custom items are pro.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
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