3.5 Vampire vs. Cleric tactics?

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Okay so I've just been turned into a level 1 Vampire and I've found a book with a ritual to banish Pelor from the material plane so I can be safe from the sun, (DM suggested it so I chose not to look a gift horse in the mouth). I just would like to get some suggestions just in case I have to fight a Cleric cause they have that sunburst spell. How do I fight them without frying like an egg? I will be having a single level in warmage or battle sorceror (whichever has more spells per day).
If your DM is willing to accept creative house-ruley loopholes (and if he's letting you play an Evil PC, that sounds like a safe bet): have an ally turn you Invisible, so the light goes right through you

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Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
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If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

If the cleric is retarded enough to waste a slot on Sunburst, you really shouldn't need any strategies to crush it.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
What's your character level (or ECL)? Sunburst is an 8th level spell, so I'm curious as to how close you are to actually needing to be worried about it.

A cleric needs to be 15th level AND have the Sun Domain (which would only allow at most one usage of the spell per day, anyway.) Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards are a different matter, of course.

The thing is, a spell that generally only deals 6d6 damage at 15th level is a waste of a slot (or spell pick, for the sorcerer) UNLESS the character is expecting to fight undead, or very often does that, which would both be RP issues for your DM. It IS important that you prepare for eventualities like this, but if every caster you face has Sunburst prepared, your DM isn't doing things right.

Now, whether or not that seems to be the case, if you're of a sufficiently high character level/ECL (say, 10-12+) you might consider if your DM will let you partake a quest to either find or make a "daywalker" item. (That may or may not be an artifact, based on your DM, but it should be difficult to get and it should take up an equipment slot.)

I reason this because your undead immunities already makes you OP, and removing the chance to die instantly on death won't really make you much stronger, but it will prevent insta-kills and open up more RP and adventure options for you (no one expects to see a vampire in the day, during which you could now adventure, and if other vampires hear of your power, they will certainly try to track you down and take it for themselves.)
Okay so I've just been turned into a level 1 Vampire and I've found a book with a ritual to banish Pelor from the material plane so I can be safe from the sun, (DM suggested it so I chose not to look a gift horse in the mouth). ...


Is the 'gift horse' being a level 1 Vampire or is there some typo in there?  As I've read things you need at least 5 levels to become a true vamprire and that's still ignoring the huge LA that being a vampire brings.

Although it is normally a weak ability I'd worry about getting hit by Turn Undead especially if playing with the RAW.  Sure a vamp gets +4 resistance but if played with the +8 LA it should have being a Vampire is just waiting to get turned by a hostile character of your "equivalent character level."
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just make a custom item that lets you walk around in sunlight without crisping?  A ring, cloak, amulet, something, other than trying to banish a god?
Wouldn't it be easier to just make a custom item that lets you walk around in sunlight without crisping?  A ring, cloak, amulet, something, other than trying to banish a god?

Well, sure, if he's only thinking about himself, but what if he's trying a massive world-domination scheme for the vampires of the world? He could still use the personal item in the meantime until he completes his grander scheme of turning the whole world into a playgorund for evil.

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Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

And why would he do something as stupid as that?

Remember what Spike said in season two? Y'know, about happy meals on legs and all? Banishing the god and ruling the world would kinda crimp that style. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
And why would he do something as stupid as that?

Remember what Spike said in season two? Y'know, about happy meals on legs and all? Banishing the god and ruling the world would kinda crimp that style. 

Ah, but that was about not destroying humanity, which would've left the vampires to starve to death. Season 3 alternate-reality Wish-verse sounds like a more accurate comparison.

Founder - but not owner - of Just Say Yes!

Member of LGBT Gamers

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

Okay so I am CE and i didnt know sunburst was so high of a spell levelbut it would make sense that every cleric we come across from now on will have it that is the sort of DM he is plus they are likely to be clerics/paladins of Pelor. I was a level 9 sorcerer/blood magus now I'm a level 1 vampire warmage cause he said it was close enough to sorcerer. The "gift horse" was finding the ritual to banish Pelor which I have decided to proceed with to hell with the world. And I get to become a king due to marrying a princess in order to instate my God's church and bring him back to power as a god since he's been forgotten from the world and lost alot of power, plot, plot, yada, yada.
But yeah, I like the invisibility trick I'll have to see if I can get some scrolls or something.
But yeah, I like the invisibility trick I'll have to see if I can get some scrolls or something.

Again, you should probably run that by the DM first, the operative words being "if your DM is willing to accept creative house-ruley loopholes" as I haven't actually heard of anybody else doing it, so I don't know how many would allow it.

Founder - but not owner - of Just Say Yes!

Member of LGBT Gamers

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

People really can't survive without the sun. Also, the Master was trying to industrialize the vamps. It's significantly different.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Sun goes away, plants die.  Plants go away, animals die.  All plants and animals gone, people die.  Only magic users would be around cuz they can make food an' stuff.  Most of the vampires' food supply would be gone.  In short, it's a terrible idea.  Banishing Pelor?  Good.  Losing the sun?  Stoopid.

By the way, I'd never let a player use Invis to dodge Sunburst.  I mean, that sets a terrible precedent.  If Invis suddenly means you aren't actually there, well, most spells won't hit you.  Invis then becomes a hella easy, low level way to dodge a crapton of magic.  And Improved?  Holy frogs, what a mess that'd make.
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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Sun goes away, plants die.  Plants go away, animals die.  All plants and animals gone, people die.  Only magic users would be around cuz they can make food an' stuff.  Most of the vampires' food supply would be gone.  In short, it's a terrible idea.  Banishing Pelor?  Good.  Losing the sun?  Stoopid.

But if enough vampires are spellcasters, then wouldn't they be able to make enough food to keep at least the humans (etc...) alive?

Create Food/Water is a 3rd level Divine spell that feeds 3 people/ caster level for a day, and it can be recast every day if the cleric knows he won't need to prepare something else (like if it's his job to feed the "cattle" and other clerics are in charge of any other spellcasting). As such, a vampire with 5 levels in cleric could feed 15 people by casting once per day, one with 10 levels could feed 30 people each time up to 3 times per day (maximum of 90), one with 15 levels could feed 45 people each time up to 5 times per day (maximum of 225)

By the way, I'd never let a player use Invis to dodge Sunburst.  I mean, that sets a terrible precedent.  If Invis suddenly means you aren't actually there, well, most spells won't hit you.  Invis then becomes a hella easy, low level way to dodge a crapton of magic.  And Improved?  Holy frogs, what a mess that'd make.

I wasn't thinking that invisibility would protect you from all forms of attack, just those that are light-based.

Founder - but not owner - of Just Say Yes!

Member of LGBT Gamers

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

But if enough vampires are spellcasters, then wouldn't they be able to make enough food to keep at least the humans (etc...) alive?

Create Food/Water is a 3rd level Divine spell that feeds 3 people/ caster level for a day, and it can be recast every day if the cleric knows he won't need to prepare something else (like if it's his job to feed the "cattle" and other clerics are in charge of any other spellcasting). As such, a vampire with 5 levels in cleric could feed 15 people by casting once per day, one with 10 levels could feed 30 people each time up to 3 times per day (maximum of 90), one with 15 levels could feed 45 people each time up to 5 times per day (maximum of 225)



How common are Clerics?  How many rulers want their 15th level Cleric tied up feeding the food?  It's just dumb, IMO. 

Aside from that, the stuff that grows cuz light provides more benefit than just sustenance.  Eventually you run out of wood, no?  Then what do you use to repair your ships or build new ones?  I know, I know ... if enough vampires are spellcasters they can cast teleport or wind walk or ...

Just not my style.  The problems are enough that they outweigh the benefit - especially when some other option could be found. 

I wasn't thinking that invisibility would protect you from all forms of attack, just those that are light-based.



Why?  Why would it only work based on ligh-based spells?  It's a bad precedent, IMO.
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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

I thought he meant it would only work on actual sunlight, not light-based spells. I thought that part sounded cool.
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Like the Invis bends it around the target or something?  I have to admit that sorta makes sense.  Sorta. 
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Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Why is there even a question as to what happens when you turn off the sun? Seems to me, The Underdark gives a fantastic impression as to what happens if you turn off the sun. It's an ecology based almost entirely on non-sunlight based sources and would probably thrive in the well lighted enviroment of a sunless world (starlight based photosynthesis would not be rediculious), with it's abundant water and clean air compaired to how hostile the Underdark is. If you want to worry about long-term ice ages from lack of sunlight, get your hands on Waste Crawlers from Sandstorm for their 1/century— global warming to keep your favorite region's sufficiently warm.

As described in Lords of Madness, Illithids have the extinguishing of the sun as one of their goals. If you're not worried about being overwhelmed by multiplying super-intelligent brain eaters, you'll probably be able to get some villainous work together to get help putting out the sun. After it's out, staying allied would allow you to make ample use of their slave races for food as the centuries pass. Not a bad long term plan, all things considered; provided they don't decide to destroy or enslave you.
Okay so I am CE and i didnt know sunburst was so high of a spell levelbut it would make sense that every cleric we come across from now on will have it that is the sort of DM he is plus they are likely to be clerics/paladins of Pelor. I was a level 9 sorcerer/blood magus now I'm a level 1 vampire warmage cause he said it was close enough to sorcerer. The "gift horse" was finding the ritual to banish Pelor which I have decided to proceed with to hell with the world. And I get to become a king due to marrying a princess in order to instate my God's church and bring him back to power as a god since he's been forgotten from the world and lost alot of power, plot, plot, yada, yada.
But yeah, I like the invisibility trick I'll have to see if I can get some scrolls or something.



I don't want to be Mr. Judgmenty, but "every cleric we come across from now on will have it that is the sort of DM he is" caught me. Maybe you don't mean it the way I interpreted it, but it seems like very game design. Like I said in my original post on this topic, it's not a very good spell except in very specific circumstances, and most casters aren't going to bother slotting it UNLESS they have a reason to.

Now, if those clerics know who you are and know you're coming, or they are expecting to constantly fight undead, they might slot it. However, if your DM gives it to every PC who can use it simply because it directly counters you, that's not min/maxing or even the amount of metagaming that DM's actually have to do: that's giving you a prize, and trying to take it away at every possibility, and that's one of the signs of a bad DM.

Whether that's the case or not, I'm still not sure what your ECL is, you stated you were a 9 sorc/blood magus, now a 1 vampire warmage, I don't know if you mean the levels were replaced or added to, etc. But, if it's noticeably less than 15 and your DM is throwing sunburst spells at you, he's outright cheating.

Turn off the sun and you run into Tippyverse, or everyone outside the Underdark dies. Vampires cannot survive in the Tippyverse. Therefore, even if vamps can keep enough humans alive, it's a pretty bad deal.

On a side note, I'd imagine most Good Wizards would support banishing or killing Pelor.
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Why is there even a question as to what happens when you turn off the sun? Seems to me, The Underdark gives a fantastic impression as to what happens if you turn off the sun. It's an ecology based almost entirely on non-sunlight based sources and would probably thrive in the well lighted enviroment of a sunless world (starlight based photosynthesis would not be rediculious), with it's abundant water and clean air compaired to how hostile the Underdark is. If you want to worry about long-term ice ages from lack of sunlight, get your hands on Waste Crawlers from Sandstorm for their 1/century— global warming to keep your favorite region's sufficiently warm.



And how would the surface world instantly evolve all of the things the Underdark has??  And starlight based photosynthesis?  Deciduous trees lose their leaves in the winter ... and the winter (in most places) has sun.

Look, I get that we are wholly capable of making up whatever zany explanation we like.  I just don't like stuff that makes so little sense it removes me from the game.  And yes, I understand that we're discussing a vampire and divine magic here, too.  That's less of an issue because we don't know anything about it.  We do know about stuff like the sun and what'd happen if it went bye-bye, though.  Meh, personal taste.  I'd prefer something to make sense naturally.  Maybe it's just me.
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[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

We know from all our experiments that banishing the sun god from our reality causes different effects to just growing plants in a cupboard.  You can't really expect that there will always be everyday results under extraordinary circumstances.

If we can swallow ideas like giants not being crushed under their own weight because that's how giants work, we can easily digest ideas like removing the sun with magic working in a different way to removing it with science.

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If we can swallow ideas like giants not being crushed under their own weight because that's how giants work, we can easily digest ideas like removing the sun with magic working in a different way to removing it with science.

No, we can't. Because, you know, the sun works. Photosynthesis is a thing in 3.5. The downright bizarre ecology of the Underdark is just further proof.

Plus, of course, getting into photosynthesis ignores a much larger problem: COLD.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
So maybe the vampires keep their human farms underground near caulderas?

Founder - but not owner - of Just Say Yes!

Member of LGBT Gamers

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

They could. But then they'll have to fight off other vampires for such prime real estate. Really, much more dangerous than just not going outside or researching a spell. Especially, since you'll have to keep your cattle from running away, and you really won''t have any fun in social circles. Vampires are predators, and I really doubt they'd want to have to shepherd their food.

Turning off the sun is just a bad deal, all the way through. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
So maybe the hunter/gatherer vampires would be fighting against the apocalypse-farming vampires to keep this from happening? It could be like the end of Season 2, like you said, but BIGGER! 

Founder - but not owner - of Just Say Yes!

Member of LGBT Gamers

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

We know from all our experiments that banishing the sun god from our reality causes different effects to just growing plants in a cupboard.  You can't really expect that there will always be everyday results under extraordinary circumstances.

If we can swallow ideas like giants not being crushed under their own weight because that's how giants work, we can easily digest ideas like removing the sun with magic working in a different way to removing it with science.



No, you can swallow it - and that's fine.  I can't.  Obviously there's at least one other person who agrees with me.  Hell brah, I even qualified that post as personal opinion.  I know other people can handle all sorts of oddball stuff in their games and that's cool with me (cuz I don't have to play with 'em).  I was simply giving my reasons as to why I feel the way I do - that it's a dumb idea.  Nothing else. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

And how would the surface world instantly evolve all of the things the Underdark has??  And starlight based photosynthesis?  Deciduous trees lose their leaves in the winter ... and the winter (in most places) has sun.

Look, I get that we are wholly capable of making up whatever zany explanation we like.  I just don't like stuff that makes so little sense it removes me from the game.  And yes, I understand that we're discussing a vampire and divine magic here, too.  That's less of an issue because we don't know anything about it.  We do know about stuff like the sun and what'd happen if it went bye-bye, though.  Meh, personal taste.  I'd prefer something to make sense naturally.  Maybe it's just me.


I was assuming that the change would be due to Underdark flora and fauna spreading outward and aided by invasions by the naturally hostile species that live there. Just a few months after the sun goes dark, war and famine are going to be high on the menu as photosynthesizing crops die and food stores run out. At this point the vampire should already be reclining with a cadre of slaves to eat and a food source for them while things go to hell and back.

Species/creatures who naturally have a strong repulsion to sunlight have nothing anymore to keep them from attacking the surface. Drow, Mind Flayer, etc invasions wipe out crippled populations and seed native Underdark species that weren't vigorous enough to spread outward on their own. Predators follow the carrion the invasions/genocides leave in their wake, spores and seeds take root in the ashes of civilizations, and slaughter continues. Eventually, though expanded cropland for their native fare of fungi and whatever else, populations stabilize after the mass die off and new borders solidify. You now have the Underdark's ecology (and to a certain extent it's political structure) transplanted onto the surface.

Which, all thing considered would probably be an awesome campaign right there.
If we can swallow ideas like giants not being crushed under their own weight because that's how giants work, we can easily digest ideas like removing the sun with magic working in a different way to removing it with science.

No, we can't. Because, you know, the sun works. Photosynthesis is a thing in 3.5. The downright bizarre ecology of the Underdark is just further proof.

Plus, of course, getting into photosynthesis ignores a much larger problem: COLD.

We know how the sun and photosynthesis works in our world.  We assume it works the same way in a fantasy world unless something suddenly suggests otherwise, like a lot of things suddenly behaving in unexpected ways when it disappears.

If you see a giant, you don't think it will collapse even though we know how physics works with regard to size and mass because you mentally file it as a difference of the fantasy.  If you see things that wouldn't normally fit with the sun disappearing, why should that be any different?
I know other people can handle all sorts of oddball stuff in their games and that's cool with me (cuz I don't have to play with 'em).  I was simply giving my reasons as to why I feel the way I do - that it's a dumb idea.  Nothing else. 

I get the opinion part, I'm just pointing out that it's not much of a stretch to get effects we'd think were unnatural when the base cause is unnatural by our standards.

I don't contest the opinion at all (that's the nature of an opinion), just the suggestion that the stuff in question doesn't make much sense.  Even if you think they're zany explanations, it doesn't mean that they don't make sense, just that their sense is based on some slightly different rules of reality.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Mabey mr. chaotic evil vampire just has a really dumb idea, on account of he is not very smart? Mabey he is just an evil dick who is not trying to make a better world for vampires or himself, he just wants to (not) watch the (sky) (not) burn cause hes a spiteful little prick. Just because it is an awful idea doesn't mean characters pursueing it should pull you out of the game. People try and do stupid **** all the time.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Mabey mr. chaotic evil vampire just has a really dumb idea, on account of he is not very smart? Mabey he is just an evil dick who is not trying to make a better world for vampires or himself, he just wants to (not) watch the (sky) (not) burn cause hes a spiteful little prick. Just because it is an awful idea doesn't mean characters pursueing it should pull you out of the game. People try and do stupid **** all the time.

+ A (G 64, G 64)

Founder - but not owner - of Just Say Yes!

Member of LGBT Gamers

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

I was assuming that the change would be due to Underdark flora and fauna spreading outward and aided by invasions by the naturally hostile species that live there. Just a few months after the sun goes dark, war and famine are going to be high on the menu as photosynthesizing crops die and food stores run out. At this point the vampire should already be reclining with a cadre of slaves to eat and a food source for them while things go to hell and back.

Species/creatures who naturally have a strong repulsion to sunlight have nothing anymore to keep them from attacking the surface. Drow, Mind Flayer, etc invasions wipe out crippled populations and seed native Underdark species that weren't vigorous enough to spread outward on their own. Predators follow the carrion the invasions/genocides leave in their wake, spores and seeds take root in the ashes of civilizations, and slaughter continues. Eventually, though expanded cropland for their native fare of fungi and whatever else, populations stabilize after the mass die off and new borders solidify. You now have the Underdark's ecology (and to a certain extent it's political structure) transplanted onto the surface.

Which, all thing considered would probably be an awesome campaign right there.



... and then they all die cuz it's, like, negative triple digit degrees on the surface.  ;)  Sun be more den plant food, mon.

I get the opinion part, I'm just pointing out that it's not much of a stretch to get effects we'd think were unnatural when the base cause is unnatural by our standards.

I don't contest the opinion at all (that's the nature of an opinion), just the suggestion that the stuff in question doesn't make much sense.  Even if you think they're zany explanations, it doesn't mean that they don't make sense, just that their sense is based on some slightly different rules of reality.



*sigh*

It's not a stretch to you.  It's all personal opinion.  You're not right about it not being nonsensical, I'm not right about it being pure nonsense.  It's a question of degree, that's all.

Mabey mr. chaotic evil vampire just has a really dumb idea, on account of he is not very smart? Mabey he is just an evil dick who is not trying to make a better world for vampires or himself, he just wants to (not) watch the (sky) (not) burn cause hes a spiteful little prick. Just because it is an awful idea doesn't mean characters pursueing it should pull you out of the game. People try and do stupid **** all the time.



Good point.  I guess it's not the idea so much as the idea working. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

It's not a stretch to you.  It's all personal opinion.  You're not right about it not being nonsensical, I'm not right about it being pure nonsense.  It's a question of degree, that's all.

I'd agree that the degree of stretch and what we can easily accomodate is personal opinion, though I don't think we mean quite the same thing when we're talking about what makes sense.

When I'm talking about the possibility of it making sense, I mean that it can have a consistent and comprehensible set of reasoning behind it, even if the ideas involved aren't natural for the real world.

For example, the campaign world might involve the basic premise that, instead of having chemical photosynthesis and similar reactions, the dependency on sunlight is due to plants and other living creatures being spiritually linked to the life-giving energy of the sun.  When someone rips the sun out of reality, they might be left completely unnourished by its absence (with similar effects to our own world), but another possibility could be that they instead end up drawing spiritual power from the gaping hole it left behind.  It could then be a logical consequence that instead of dying, they would be transformed by the huge shift in their spiritual source; its a result that makes perfect sense given the fundamental difference in how the campaign world operates.

It's the sort of thing that can really sell the dramatic differences in a fantasy world when done right, ideally with a sense of forboding and an obvious transformation in the nature of those affected (or similar cues) to indicate to the players that something has gone drastically wrong with the workings of the world.

But if the DM doesn't hint at some underlying logic in the world by showing that it's more than just the consequence of a severely low light level, the differences will seem inconsistent and senseless, which I think may be the angle from which you're seeing it.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
But if the DM doesn't hint at some underlying logic in the world by showing that it's more than just the consequence of a severely low light level, the differences will seem inconsistent and senseless, which I think may be the angle from which you're seeing it.



Right-o.  Seems we're on the same page.    That said, though, it's a little more than that.  Some things just can't be explained well (sparkly vampires, anyone?). 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

... and then they all die cuz it's, like, negative triple digit degrees on the surface.  ;)  Sun be more den plant food, mon.

As such, whoever controls digging and settling access to the underground regions surrounding caulderas, and who is allowed to live in those underground settlements, controls who lives and dies.

Sounds like the vampires who used to be dwarves or drow would have a better social standing than other vampires.

Founder - but not owner - of Just Say Yes!

Member of LGBT Gamers

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Why there should be the option to use alignment systems:
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

hmm, negative energy powered plant life... interesting.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
No, photosynthesis works in D&D because several things explicitly have the ability.

Really, it sounds more like a hack author's diarrhea than a conherent campaign, because if you have a sun proper that provides light, then everything not right around a sea vent dies. The underdark dies. Then vamps starve. It's just not a good deal.

Killing Pelor? that's a great idea, but putting out the sun? Not so much.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Pelor goes to plane of shadow, shadows come to prime material. Most residents of both planes die in the havoc, while a small number of creatures on each are warped by the sudden influx of foreign magic. Reasonable, suitably dramatic, consistent with established lore.
Sir Casm, Lord of the Oblivious
Some things just can't be explained well (sparkly vampires, anyone?). 



They're not vampires (no matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth may suggest otherwise):  they live in the woods, they come out whenever they want (chaotic-aligned), they sparkle...they're faeries.
You spelled it wrong...
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
... and then they all die cuz it's, like, negative triple digit degrees on the surface.  ;)  Sun be more den plant food, mon.

If ONLY someone had addressed that earlier.
If you want to worry about long-term ice ages from lack of sunlight, get your hands on Waste Crawlers from Sandstorm for their 1/century— global warming to keep your favorite region's sufficiently warm.

Now, there are still other considerations like the atmosphere possibly snowing off, but again this is why you work with Illithids who will have all of the same problems that you do and the same goals.
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