Esper control question.

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Right now I'm running esper control for standard, my list runs 1 jace mainboard and 1 tamiyo, but most of the deck right now run 2 jace sideboard. My 1st question is why are they not running him mainboard (cuz he is one of your win cons) and second why are they not running tamiyo at all?? 





Thanks! 
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They're not running Jace main because he's terrible against aggro and there's a lot of aggro. Tamiyo is good, but a lot of decks just have other stuff to be doing. I used to run both MD, but neither feel good there right now.
My Trade Thread My Decks: Standard: Esper Control, Junk Rites Modern: Twin Legacy: Sac Land Tendrils, Oops All Spells (Under Construction) Pauper: UB Post My Magic Blog "9/10 decks I make are terrible; and I make A LOT of decks!" -Pat Chapin
Moving this to standard general.
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They're not running Jace main because he's terrible against aggro and there's a lot of aggro. Tamiyo is good, but a lot of decks just have other stuff to be doing. I used to run both MD, but neither feel good there right now.



Tamiyo is not good. She only taps down ONE thing, on turn 5. In a super slow format she's nice, but that won't exist anymore.

I personally LOVE Jace in Esper. It gives you all the things you want-life buffering +1, CA -2, and a reasonable mana cost. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Right now Jace AoT gives you 1 thing you want if you're talking about the fast format. It's either a 4-mana sorcery speed partial fog, or a sorcery speed partial Fact or Fiction. Neither side is bad, but pretty embarassing against something like Blitz Naya or Gruul. I'd much rather Wrath or hold up removal/permission on turn 4. He's fine, don't get me wrong, but even he's not as good as he used to be. I'm holding tightly to my set at least for block and with high hopes for next STD, though. Right now just doesn't seem to be the time for Esper to be running too many 'walkers. Basically lists like Ben Stark's, Andrew Cuneo's or Ben Lundquist's seem optimal if you want to be competitive in a large open field that has nut draws like the decks right now do.
My Trade Thread My Decks: Standard: Esper Control, Junk Rites Modern: Twin Legacy: Sac Land Tendrils, Oops All Spells (Under Construction) Pauper: UB Post My Magic Blog "9/10 decks I make are terrible; and I make A LOT of decks!" -Pat Chapin
Right now Jace AoT gives you 1 thing you want if you're talking about the fast format. It's either a 4-mana sorcery speed partial fog, or a sorcery speed partial Fact or Fiction. Neither side is bad, but pretty embarassing against something like Blitz Naya or Gruul. I'd much rather Wrath or hold up removal/permission on turn 4. He's fine, don't get me wrong, but even he's not as good as he used to be. I'm holding tightly to my set at least for block and with high hopes for next STD, though. Right now just doesn't seem to be the time for Esper to be running too many 'walkers. Basically lists like Ben Stark's, Andrew Cuneo's or Ben Lundquist's seem optimal if you want to be competitive in a large open field that has nut draws like the decks right now do.



Well obviously you would rather have Wrath against an aggro deck. Thats like saying you would rather have creatures in your aggro deck. Kinda makes it sot he deck does its thing.

(at)MrEnglish22

I've got one big Jace maindeck and the other on the side. He's not too bad to draw into once the red player has no cards in handWink
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Well obviously you would rather have Wrath against an aggro deck. Thats like saying you would rather have creatures in your aggro deck. Kinda makes it sot he deck does its thing.



Exaclty. Considering you rarely want to play it on curve, and also that there are much better things to do later on in the game, there's not a lot of reason to run him right now. I do really like the card, he's just in an odd spot right now.
My Trade Thread My Decks: Standard: Esper Control, Junk Rites Modern: Twin Legacy: Sac Land Tendrils, Oops All Spells (Under Construction) Pauper: UB Post My Magic Blog "9/10 decks I make are terrible; and I make A LOT of decks!" -Pat Chapin
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Well obviously you would rather have Wrath against an aggro deck. Thats like saying you would rather have creatures in your aggro deck. Kinda makes it sot he deck does its thing.



Exaclty. Considering you rarely want to play it on curve, and also that there are much better things to do later on in the game, there's not a lot of reason to run him right now. I do really like the card, he's just in an odd spot right now.



Except playing him on curve is perfectly fine in many situations. And playing him off curve isn't that big of a deal, either.

(at)MrEnglish22

Just curious, when would you actually want to play him on curve? Against aggro playing him on curve means you'll probably die or at the very least be brought down to easy burn range. Rites ... you have a good chance of just dying. Control, I guess it's fine, but doesn't accomplish much. Midrange, same. It seems against anything there's never an on curve spot where you actually want him unless you're opponent has stumbled a decent bit, and making card choices on the assumption you're opponent will mess up seems loose. It's just like "Well, I'm not dead yet so I guess I can." I'm just saying the format doesn't really support a 4mana split card of (kinda)fog/Preordain.

With midrange creeping back in to the metagame he is getting better, though. At least you can probably get more than one activation.

Not trying to be confontational/argumentative here. Just actually enjoying the discussion. A rare thing on this forum, haha.
My Trade Thread My Decks: Standard: Esper Control, Junk Rites Modern: Twin Legacy: Sac Land Tendrils, Oops All Spells (Under Construction) Pauper: UB Post My Magic Blog "9/10 decks I make are terrible; and I make A LOT of decks!" -Pat Chapin
Rites is a rather easy matchup for Esper in my experience. Jace AoT is fine against Rites and Midrange on curve so long as its actually safe to do so. Obviously  if they have you dead next turn or whatever, you don't want him over a Verdict. But that isn't super common against Rites (they need Rites and a Craterhoof, along with the dorks) 
Control you just throw him down, +1, -2, -2, +1 or whatever. He can net you more cards than a Sphinx's and is less likely to see a counterspell.

Obviously, you generally get the most milage out of his +1 against aggro, but its also dangerous to drop him because they can just kill you because they have those stupid "t2 10 power in play" games sometimes.

At least, that's been my experience with it in Esper 

(at)MrEnglish22

I think the main problem with Jace AoT main deck is that people are already playing Jace MA main deck.  As they say in the old Westerns, this deck ain't big enough for the both of em.  So win-condition Jace gets the nod over just-card-advantage Jace.
I think the main problem with Jace AoT main deck is that people are already playing Jace MA main deck.  As they say in the old Westerns, this deck ain't big enough for the both of em.  So win-condition Jace gets the nod over just-card-advantage Jace.



Esper doesn't need big Jace that much, and you win the Jace War with little(er) jace.

(at)MrEnglish22

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