Instants and Sorceries on the Battlefield

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I believe that it is possible to have instants and sorceries on the battlefield under present rules, though not with present cards. As far as I can tell, the only limitations on instants and sorceries being on the battlefield is in rules 304.4 and 307.4:
304.4. Instants can’t enter the battlefield. If an instant would enter the battlefield, it remains in its previous zone instead.
307.4. Sorceries can’t enter the battlefield. If a sorcery would enter the battlefield, it remains in its previous zone instead.
Now, entering the battlefield and being on the battlefield are different things. As far as I can tell, there is nothing to stop a card from entering the battlefield as, say, a creature, and then later turning into an instant or sorcery. For instance, suppose the following card existed:

Burn or Dude
Sorcery
Deal 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph

I don't believe there is anything in the rules to prevent me from playing this card face-down, then morphing it to face up, and thereby having a sorcery on the battlefield. Am I missing something?
If I'm right, then the rulebook's many statements to the effect that "Instant and sorcery cards can’t enter the battlefield and thus can’t be permanents." should be removed.
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Æther Rider Creatuere - Spirit (U) Vanishing 0 (This permanent enters the battlefield with zero time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When the last is removed, sacrifice it.) Flying : Put a time counter on ~. Any player may activate this ability. It comes on the wind, from realms unknown. 2/2 Kaldurian Behemoth Creature - Beast (R) Mana produced by lands may not be used to pay ~'s mana cost. Trample On Kalduria, the beasts are too good to eat common grass. 10/10 Demonic Arbitrator Sorcery Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of life. If any player paid life, repeat this process. If a player paid more life in total than any other, that player searches his or her library for a card and puts that card into his or her hand. Then that player shuffles his or her library. "Your sacrifice has been judged worthy. What power do you require?"
The rules only need to handle cards that exist. If something would be possible only with cards that don't exist, it's not possible.

In this case, the correct conclusion isn't "the rules are wrong because this hypothetical card would contradict them." It's "this hypothetical card isn't supported by the current rules, and they'd need to change the rules if they wanted to print it."
Well they should at least say "Instant and sorcery cards can’t enter the battlefield and no cards have ever been printed that can change from other card types into instants and sorceries while and the battlefield and thus can’t be permanents." Honestly, this issue does come up more than you'd think in independently designed cards on YMtC, so it'd be nice to have some clarification if it is impossible by the rules or just by the rules' philosophy.
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Æther Rider Creatuere - Spirit (U) Vanishing 0 (This permanent enters the battlefield with zero time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When the last is removed, sacrifice it.) Flying : Put a time counter on ~. Any player may activate this ability. It comes on the wind, from realms unknown. 2/2 Kaldurian Behemoth Creature - Beast (R) Mana produced by lands may not be used to pay ~'s mana cost. Trample On Kalduria, the beasts are too good to eat common grass. 10/10 Demonic Arbitrator Sorcery Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of life. If any player paid life, repeat this process. If a player paid more life in total than any other, that player searches his or her library for a card and puts that card into his or her hand. Then that player shuffles his or her library. "Your sacrifice has been judged worthy. What power do you require?"
No they should not. The rules handle existing, real cards. They aren't meant to support every hypothetical card ymtc comes up with.
Incidentally, it would be possible to put an instant or sorcery onto the field without that rule.  See Splintering Wind, Splinter, and Clarion Ultimatum for one method.
Incidentally, it would be possible to put an instant or sorcery onto the field without that rule.  See Splintering Wind, Splinter, and Clarion Ultimatum for one method.


A rules specifically mentions instant and sorcery cards can't enter the battlefield and stay in the zone where they were.
Incidentally, it would be possible to put an instant or sorcery onto the field without that rule.  See Splintering Wind, Splinter, and Clarion Ultimatum for one method.


A rules specifically mentions instant and sorcery cards can't enter the battlefield and stay in the zone where they were.


Doesn't that rule exist specifically because of that interaction?

3DH4LIF3

Incidentally, it would be possible to put an instant or sorcery onto the field without that rule.  See Splintering Wind, Splinter, and Clarion Ultimatum for one method.


A rules specifically mentions instant and sorcery cards can't enter the battlefield and stay in the zone where they were.


Yes, I'm well aware of that rule.
Incidentally, it would be possible to put an instant or sorcery onto the field without that rule.  See Splintering Wind, Splinter, and Clarion Ultimatum for one method.


A rules specifically mentions instant and sorcery cards can't enter the battlefield and stay in the zone where they were.


Yes, I'm well aware of that rule.


Oh, okay. It's just that you said that it was possible to put instant and sorcery cards onto the battlefield as it now. I guess you meant that it was possible to try to do so.
"it would be possible without that rule" != "it is possible"
rules can be amended by the text box of each card

it is possible

but no card exists to do so

All Hallow's Eve
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
Not sure a misprint and a patch-up job to text is a good example of "possible"

3DH4LIF3

we had no problem playing "All hollow's Eve" when it was first printed.

should have been an enchantment to reduce cross work
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
It was supposed to be an enchantment. That's the misprint.
It was supposed to be an enchantment. That's the misprint.


Was it really supposed to be an enchantment, or was it just a prelude to suspend?

Rules Advisor

It really was supposed to be an Enchantment, but it took years for the Rules (and the understanding of the people in charge of them) to become sophisticated enough for that to be realized. But by that time, it had been around too long, so they had to make it work as a Sorcery.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

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"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

"it would be possible without that rule" != "it is possible"


Oh, yes, sorry. I read it wrong like three times. >>
The CompRules already have enough difficulty handling the interactions between cards that have been printed. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to handle all possible cards that could be templated with all possible combinations of possible abilities.

Each new set brings minor CompRules updates. It's fine for the CompRules to wait until a card is printed before being updated to handle that card.

A fundamental assumption when making custom cards is that minor tweaks to the CompRules would be made to allow the card to function. It's only when custom cards start to require major tweaks to the CompRules that problems emerge.

I think a very sensible assumption would be that in the first set to include instants and sorceries with morph, the CompRules would acquire a rule to the effect that "As part of turning an instant or sorcery face up, cast it without paying its mana cost - i.e. move it to the stack and make any choices for targets, modes etc. If you can't, put it into its owner's graveyard."
Honestly, whenever I see this topic come up, I always want to know what's wrong with Morph triggers. What can an Instant/Sorcery with Morph do that a permanent with a Morph trigger can't?

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

a morph sorcery [which doesn't exist] should only unmorph on your main phase and not as a response
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
You can turn a creature face-up even at times you couldn't cast a creature spell. Also, the main point of morph is that you can catch your opponent by surprise because they didn't know what the face-down creature is (e.g. by suddenly getting a turn-face-up trigger or by unveiling the creature only after the decision to block or not has been made). If you're restricted to doing that with sorcery timing, all of that is lost.

If anything, that just shows another problem with the "instants and sorceries with morph" idea.
If anything, that just shows another problem with the "instants and sorceries with morph" idea.



Back to the idea of cards in the graveyard having morph! /cackles_maniacally

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(What? We have face-down cards on the field, in exile...clearly we should have them in the graveyard as well!) /endjoke
Rule #Whatever: If a face down instant or sorcery on the battlefield would be turned face up, its controller casts it face up from the battlefield without paying its mana cost instead. If they can't, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Casting a spell this way ignores normal timing restrictions for casting the spell.

For morphing instant and sorceries:
Spell Morph [cost] (You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for . You may cast it face up from the battlefield by paying its spell morph cost.)

Does this work?

Xweetoks = ♥Happiness

Rule #Whatever: If a face down instant or sorcery on the battlefield would be turned face up, its controller casts it face up from the battlefield without paying its mana cost instead. If they can't, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Casting a spell this way ignores normal timing restrictions for casting the spell.

For morphing instant and sorceries:
Spell Morph [cost] (You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for . You may cast it face up from the battlefield by paying its spell morph cost.)

Does this work?


Looks like it works. 
Rule #Whatever: If a face down instant or sorcery on the battlefield would be turned face up, its controller casts it face up from the battlefield without paying its mana cost instead. If they can't, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Casting a spell this way ignores normal timing restrictions for casting the spell.

For morphing instant and sorceries:
Spell Morph [cost] (You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for . You may cast it face up from the battlefield by paying its spell morph cost.)

Does this work?


I think it works, but I have a few points and concerns about it:

I'd rather have the effect of the card analogous to the rule. Meaning, you pay the morph cost to be able to cast it for free, like how Thunderblade Charge does it.

The rule still allows sorceries to be cast outside of their normal timing, so I think there are two sensible options here:
1) we'll force original timing somehow,  making sorceries always go to the graveyard by this rule unless there's something like a Hypersonic Dragon on the table
2) Let the rule allow sorceries to be cast outside their normal timing but have the ability itself allow "instant timing" as well to make it analogous (adding "as though it had flash" to the keyword rule/reminder text).

Final point, they can still call it just "Morph" and not "Spell Morph" if they want to. It'd be like other keywords that have different interpretations depending on the card type, like Haunt, Sunburst and Suspend.
It is convenient to drop a 2/2 creature  for that might be a sorcery later
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
I'd rather have the effect of the card analogous to the rule. Meaning, you pay the morph cost to be able to cast it for free, like how Thunderblade Charge does it.


The thing is, cards can be turned up by other means then paying their morph costs and the rules need to account for when that happens.
incidentally, all creatures, planes walkers, enchantments and artifacts are cast with sorcery timing

only instants and lands are under differnet rules

morph is currently and instant ability
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
incidentally, all creatures, planes walkers, enchantments and artifacts are cast with sorcery timing

only instants and lands are under differnet rules

morph is currently and instant ability


What's the different rule for lands?

Rules Advisor

only 1 per turn
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
only 1 per turn


and never ever never on an opponents turn.

3DH4LIF3

yes, just like all non-instants
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
You can cast sorceries during an opponent's turn. You can never, ever, ever play lands.

http://nogoblinsallowed.com/

the text box on a card can amend the rules
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
incidentally, all creatures, planes walkers, enchantments and artifacts are cast with sorcery timing

only instants and lands are under differnet rules

morph is currently and instant ability


What's the different rule for lands?



only 1 per turn


and never ever never on an opponents turn.



yes, just like all non-instants


My sardonicism failed.  I meant to point out that lands are also played only during your main phase and while the stack is empty.

Rules Advisor

I'd rather have the effect of the card analogous to the rule. Meaning, you pay the morph cost to be able to cast it for free, like how Thunderblade Charge does it.


The thing is, cards can be turned up by other means then paying their morph costs and the rules need to account for when that happens.


I get that. What I meant is that it might be better if the spell would always be considered cast without mana spent on it even when the spell-morph-cost is paid.
But I'm having second thoughts about it being favorable.
the text box on a card can amend the rules


But not the one about lands.  The rules specifically say that lands can't be played on your opponent's turn.  Can't overrides can.
incidentally, all creatures, planeswalkers, enchantments and artifacts are cast with sorcery timing

that is the default permission, yes, but the rules also allow them to be cast at instant timing (Flash CR702.8a) or at a time when no player normally has permission to do so (Djinn of Wishes or Cascade or Brilliant Ultimatum CR608.2f)
only instants and lands are under different rules

instants have different default permissions, but otherwise follow the same rules
lands have default sorcery timing permissions, but have other restrictions that other card types do not
morph is currently an instant ability

this is misleading

morph allows you to cast the card as a spell facedown and is a creature spell so follows default creature timing (ie. sorcery), but the rules allow for effects to change that as well

to turn a facedown creature faceup for its morph cost is a special action that can't be responded to (it doesn't use the stack) and can be taken at instant timing and is one of the few actions that can be taken in response to a spell with Split Second.

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The CompRules already have enough difficulty handling the interactions between cards that have been printed. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to handle all possible cards that could be templated with all possible combinations of possible abilities.

Each new set brings minor CompRules updates. It's fine for the CompRules to wait until a card is printed before being updated to handle that card.


Unless the rule establishes a new area of innovation that will obvisiously be used at some point.

I'm refferring to the sloppy patch job that is the infect-wither interaction. It'll need to be completely rewritten at some point.
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oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
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I don't see a problem with the wither/infect rules. Could you elaborate?
I don't see a problem with the wither/infect rules. Could you elaborate?


The rules say something to the effect of 'it doesn't matter if both of these are on a creature because the creature damage replacement does the same thing.' This is fine until a third "deals damage as" ability is made that does something different. The rules aren't supporting an obvious future here, and it means I'll need to relearn that section when the third ability is made.

I don't expect the Comp rules to cover all variants, but as another example of how this simplification hurts the game; Currently, this matters in "assassin" and a few other popular multiplayer formats. If A is alive at self-inflicted -100 because of an indestructible platinum angel, and B casts pit fight on a 5/5 he controls vs the angel, C casts a spell to give it infect in response and D gives it wither, who gets credit for the kill?
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]