Roleplaying since the 80s and I'm really tired!

Back in the early 80s, a friend of the family introduced me to fantasy roleplaying games when I was about 12 years old. It was the Dungeons & Dragons Basic game in a red box, and I was hooked! Being in the military, my family moved around a lot so it wasn't always easy to find the right group to play with. Sometimes, there was no one around to share my hobby that had become my passion. As I grew into adulthood, changed jobs and locations (and even relationships), my love for the game stayed with me. Yet, I still kept up with the books, the supplements, and almost every product even remotely associated with the game. Every edition. Admittedly, fourth was the hardest for me to accept, but like with every edition before it, I found enough strengths and considerations to keep me vested in the game. I hung out for as long as I could, but the moment the Next edition was announced, I decided that I was done because, frankly, I'm just really tired of buying into new games I already play.

So why did I wait this long to say anything until now? Why do I even bother? Because I am 42 years old. I've been playing living with this game for about three decades. I have spent thousands of dollars and hours in one way or another. I believe I'm entitled to have a say in it whenever I decide. But as a loyal and dedicated fan, and now a former customer, I want it to be understood why some people, like myself, are done with all of this. I want it to be understood why I, at least, am no longer going along for the ride, or even care how good (or bad) the next product will be.

I am tired of spending more money for more versions of the same game I already have. Fourth edition was more different, which I actually appreciated, but it wasn't different enough. And I still have most of my previous editions, which are already tested and, more or less, complete. None are perfect, but after all these years, I've figured out how to avoid most of the common problems and pitfalls. I guess you can add that I'm tired of learning how to deal with new systems since they all have flaws, too.

I am tired of being dictated by this industry of what a roleplaying game is supposed to be and how to play it. I neither need nor want a wall full of text books to explain all the basic rules and the advanced rules, the variant rules and expansion rules, compendium rules, errated rules, discontinued rules, banned rules, and rules for making more rules. Nor do I need a character system with so many choices and options that most players become incapable of making any decisions in a reasonable amount of time before and during play. You don't need one million options available just so you can make the right one.

I am tired of companies being greedy. If you produce a good, quality product and make a profit from selling it, I'd say you're a successful and respected business. But if you spend more effort trying to create a business model that will get consumers to continuously give you more money for a product of poor or questionable quality, then you will inevitably end up in a boardroom with whatever remains of your various project teams and managers, scratching your heads while trying to figure out why your competitors are now doing so much better than you.

I am tired of paying for virtual goods and rented services in order to play a game. Yes, I can write out a character sheet by hand. I've been doing that probably since before a lot of gamers on these message boards were born. Doesn't mean I don't want to, especially with as much detail that is needed to fill out a functional character sheet for fourth edition (i.e. I shouldn't need to reference details on every one of my character abilities by looking it up between several handbooks, or even a virtual database). And I'm tired of character sheets that require multiple pages with an index.

I am tired of reading articles about what halflings are supposed to look like and how to recognize monsters we've seen for reimagined and reinvented for many years. I am tired of reading about modularity for a set of rules that has yet to show any real signs of stability. I am tired of hearing how our voices and opinions are important, except for those who do not want to move into another edition. I'm tired of assumptions being made that I would actually want to be sitting at a table with players playing the same game with different sets of rules. If I want to play first edition rules with first edition players, guess what?... I'm not inviting them to a table for Next edition! That game (and those players) already exist!

I'm tired how the type of die you roll is actually connected with the "feel" of true Dungeons and Dragons. Its not (or at least, it shouldn't be)! Its a game mechanic, and a very bad one at that. I would like to think that professional game designers would not hold themselves to an archaic and tired piece like the d20 in favor of better and different game mechanics. Its been more than 30 years, after all. Why are we still looking for ways to reinvent the same game system, over and over and....

(And in case you might ask, the true "feel" of any DnD game (to me) has very little to do with mechanics. It is a group of people, sitting around a table with make-believe characters and stories, collaborating to tell stories of adventure, action, suspense, and glory! It is about people having fun, not digging in rulebooks to find some obscure detail, or arguing about how all characters can be no better or worse than anyone else's, or whining about when/how their character is going to stand out in a table full of like-minded people wondering the same exact thing, etc.)

And finally, I am really tired of listening to other players who simply refuse to think for themselves. Whether it is at the game table, or on a message board, I can hear/read the same arguments and complaints caught in an endless loop. I know full well that writing this will prompt any number of responses from people who feel the need to defend against some imagined slight against them, their peers, their game, or their patron sponsor. And they will think I am a moron who needs to be reminded of what is so painfully obvious, like businesses need to make money, or no one is going to take away the games I already have, or that this little speech is based off someone else's somewhat famous rant (or the true original).

I am not here to rain on anybody's "happy", or pick a fight on the internet (because its just stupid and I don't have that much time to waste). I don't expect development on the new game to suddenly stop, or designers to suddenly rethink their strategy, and I certainly don't expect the new edition to fail. There is a lot of new blood ready to jump on with whatever comes on for the next 20-30 years before they, too, will grow tired. Maybe one day they will be making a statement like this, and that will be fine because I know the game is still going on. I couldn't tell you how its doing, and I probably won't care by then anyway.

My point is that its still just a game, or at least it should be treated like one. It may be a very important and influential one, as it has been to me, but I think it is important that I am able to let someone know why I (and maybe others like me) have decided to stay with what we have, make the best of what we got, and say goodbye to whatever may come. We are just tired of this business. Not the game.
"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
thank you. i would have had a terrible day if i hadn't read about why you don't like changing editions.

 
Guys, he said his peace, so let him be.

I hope you find happiness, Jacob. 
... and there's nothing wrong with that. It is a well-established belief that old people stop buying new things, or keeping up with trends, once they realize that their old stuff isn't inferior just because it's old. Even if technology improves quickly, an old radio doesn't suddenly fail to perform its task, just because everyone else has an mp3 player. (... although my example might be a bit dated, if broadcast radio does end in the near future.)

You have games that you like, and that's great. If you can find players for your 1E or 2E or 4E game, then there's absolutely no reason for you to switch to 5E. You've already succeeded at your task. Not everyone is in the market for a new car - regardless of how aesthetically pleasing it may (or may not) be.
The metagame is not the game.
thank you. i would have had a terrible day if i hadn't read about why you don't like changing editions.

 


He actually said 4e wasnt different enough... ie if you are giving me something new that is one thing but if not?

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The best part is that WotC is reprinting all the old editions (with fancy new covers).  So it doesn't matter what version of the game you play, you are still playing D&D.  And when you bring new people into your game they will find it very easy to buy the books (if they want to).

I think it is a great way to keep the legacy of D&D alive, and if I had more disposable income I would certainly buy the core 3 books from each past edition.
Guys, he said his peace, so let him be.

I hope you find happiness, Jacob. 


Thanks for the sentiment, and the sincerity, Wrecan. But I never said I was unhappy. ;)

"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
The best part is that WotC is reprinting all the old editions (with fancy new covers).  So it doesn't matter what version of the game you play, you are still playing D&D.  And when you bring new people into your game they will find it very easy to buy the books (if they want to).

I think it is a great way to keep the legacy of D&D alive, and if I had more disposable income I would certainly buy the core 3 books from each past edition.


I don't know if that's necessarily the best part, but it is kinda neat. Not sure if its worth the big price tag (I still have most of the originals), but I figure they needed some kind of cash flow during their period of non-revenue for the brand.

Ironically, I would actually consider paying reprints for 4e if it a) had all the updated errata, b) could actually define three core books (which goes against the whole "everything is core" philosophy), and c) would either make some clear distinction between Essentials and non-Essentials products, or meld it all into one ruleset. I guess I feel they walked away and left after making a mess with 4e. There was a lot of potential.

"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
The best part is that WotC is reprinting all the old editions (with fancy new covers).  So it doesn't matter what version of the game you play, you are still playing D&D.  And when you bring new people into your game they will find it very easy to buy the books (if they want to).

I think it is a great way to keep the legacy of D&D alive, and if I had more disposable income I would certainly buy the core 3 books from each past edition.


I don't know if that's necessarily the best part, but it is kinda neat. Not sure if its worth the big price tag (I still have most of the originals)

I didn't mean for you specifically.  More for people who end up joining your game.  It is much nicer to be able to tell them that they can buy a brand new book instead of having to spend way more money for a used one.

I didn't mean for you specifically.  More for people who end up joining your game.  It is much nicer to be able to tell them that they can buy a brand new book instead of having to spend way more money for a used one.


Oh, right! That's a good point. And I *have* considered buying the 3.5 core books for the errata. Plus, they're real shiny! :D

"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
I get where the OP is coming from.
I was big into tactical wargames when OD&D first came out (and I didn't want anything to do with it, which I find kind of funny these days). By the time BECMI and AD&D came out, though, I was hooked. Since then I've probably invested more in my RPG library than in my first house.

That being said...

Companies who continue to produce products would like for established gamers to buy the new stuff. They would also like for new players to get into the hobby using the new stuff. They are a business, after all. Without new players, the hobby dies. If they don't keep coming out with new things, the old things get stale. Established players will eventually start to wonder off. New players won't even know where to begin if what they have to choose from is stacks of books from various older editions.

This is why I support every new edition, even if I don't, personally, plan on playing the new edition.
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
This is why I support every new edition, even if I don't, personally, plan on playing the new edition.


You do realize, my friend, that this can do more harm than good? By blindly supporting bad designs and products, the entire industry could get a false idea of what customers really want. They need to get this right by making a *good* product, not based on what majority rules, old grognards, and online crowds demand. And recycling old ideas is certainly not the way. Nor is dropping lines that aren't living up to financial expectations while they're still inticing new blood to get interested. But by all means, do *not* give them false readings, lay down and take whatever they give you just because you think the game will die out.

DnD is *not* going away as long as people, like you and I, are still playing the game and care enough to complain about it. And trust me, there are many other people just as capable (or better) who can carry the torch if it is ever passed. ;)



"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
I didn't mean for you specifically.  More for people who end up joining your game.  It is much nicer to be able to tell them that they can buy a brand new book instead of having to spend way more money for a used one.


Oh, right! That's a good point. And I *have* considered buying the 3.5 core books for the errata. Plus, they're real shiny! :D


I know, right?  I think they did an awesome job on the reprints.  They look fantastic, new, and at the same time preserve the original art.


You do realize, my friend, that this can do as much good as harm? By blindly supporting bad designs and products, the entire industry could get a false idea of what customers really want. They need to get this right by making a *good* product, not based on what majority rules, old grognards, and online crowds demand.


This is where it gets sketchy.
"Bad designs and products" is extremely subjective. While I was not a fan of 3E/3.5, it attracted scores of followers both old and new to the hobby. Same for 4E. For that matter, so did AD&D. Whose idea of "good design" or "good product" is the one to listen to? And, as far as business is concerned, "majority rules" is a major factor...if you can truly get a feel for what the actual majority rules are. It certainly isn't here on these boards (or on internet land anywhere). An open playtest is a fantastic way to get the real feel for what is good and what is bad. Ignore 99% of the tripe that gets bandied about on these boards (and on EnWorld, etc., as it's mostly the same people saying the same things anyway), and put products in the hands of the playtesters...and actually listen to their feedback. That's the most important part. If old ideas are good ideas, then there's no reason at all to arbitrarily drop them for something just ebcause it's newer. Likewise, if a new idea is garbage, it needs to not be included for the same reason.

DnD is *not* going away as long as people, like you and I, are still playing the game and care enough to complain about it. And trust me, there are many other people just as capable (or better) who can carry on the torch if it is decided to get passed on. ;)


This I agree with 100%.
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
"Bad designs and products" is extremely subjective. While I was not a fan of 3E/3.5, it attracted scores of followers both old and new to the hobby. Same for 4E. For that matter, so did AD&D. Whose idea of "good design" or "good product" is the one to listen to? And, as far as business is concerned, "majority rules" is a major factor...if you can truly get a feel for what the actual majority rules are. It certainly isn't here on these boards (or on internet land anywhere). An open playtest is a fantastic way to get the real feel for what is good and what is bad. Ignore 99% of the tripe that gets bandied about on these boards (and on EnWorld, etc., as it's mostly the same people saying the same things anyway), and put products in the hands of the playtesters...and actually listen to their feedback. That's the most important part. If old ideas are good ideas, then there's no reason at all to arbitrarily drop them for something just ebcause it's newer. Likewise, if a new idea is garbage, it needs to not be included for the same reason.


Yes, and no. Bad design and products can be subjective, but it can also be self-evident. Bad is bad, no matter how many people say/think its good. Look at reality shows. ;)

I misworded myself, as usual. I meant to say "which majority rules". It should be obvious that there are several "majority" crowds just within the DnD community itself. Its nearly impossible to gauge which majority is the greater majority, and which majority swings the greatest weight. So I concur with what you say. But I still stand by original statement to you, which is not to support companies with money that is not deserved. I will not make that choice for you, of course. But I will strongly urge you to consider voicing your own true opinion in a way that will convey an honest representation towards the quality and satisfaction of a product you wish to eagerly endorse.

And, yes, if they come up with something I *really* like and think is worthwhile, I will happily and readily be in line for it. ;)
"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
I make my voice heard through my wallet.
Well, that, and playtest feedback.
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
Precisly how I feel. Been on board since you have as well, with nearly as much invested.

I am nostelogic about older editions but have recently read (nearly front to back) both PHB and DMG from 2nd edition and it's absolutly brilliant. I do enjoy every other edition too. Lay off!

 

 

Leaning that way myself. Might just freeze the game at AD&D2 ed+ derivitives and Pathfinder for when I want a different style of game. D&DN needs to be spectacular and it isn't.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 


I wish you many happy gaming experiences Jacob. And I get where you are coming from.
Play what you want how you want and never spend another dime on D&D if you wish. I aint mad at ya.
This is why I support every new edition, even if I don't, personally, plan on playing the new edition.


You do realize, my friend, that this can do more harm than good? By blindly supporting bad designs and products, the entire industry could get a false idea of what customers really want.



Only in the sense that bad sales tell Hasbro that people don't want D&D, leading to them cutting down the team and make future editions even worse. If you think the bean-counters are going to look at bad sales results and say, "Obviously we need to spend more money on this," I would say that's probably backwards.

And since your OP suggests there's almost no new edition that could catch your interest, I don't know exactly what message you *want* to send. I mean,

I am tired of hearing how our voices and opinions are important, except for those who do not want to move into another edition.


 
If you really don't want another edition, what could WOTC possibly do for you beyond reprinting old editions? Do you really need another 20 4e splatbooks? (Your later comments would suggest otherwise.) I mean, I'm not going to read J.K. Rowling's latest novel, but I'm also not going to complain that she's ruining Harry Potter by writing something new.
... and there's nothing wrong with that. It is a well-established belief that old people stop buying new things, or keeping up with trends

you missed where he said he was tired of buyin gthe same thing overand over because its not new that 4e wasn't different enough for him that's saying something.

I agree that the rapid churn ofnew editions is anoying, and that its less anoying the more genuinelynew they turn out to be. '.5' eds are particularly bad that way, hardly diffderent at all but buy evrythng again.

I have been playing since the 80s as well, and if I had a burning desire to play the older games now is the time. But it usually only takes a few games to realize I want more. I believe part of it is the OGL, because it is all about the numbers for the big players in the sandbox (Paizo, WOTC) and they develop games that start looking the same. And the market for RPGs is never as good as it was. I can only hope there is a break out game from an new developer to show how entrenched the current brain trust is. Who knows maybe Monte Cook will hit gold with Numenera. I really hope he does, because the genre is not only science fantasy, as it may provide a new spin on fantasy overall.

Oh well, get some rest, maybe 5E will get out of a rut and do something great.
Only in the sense that bad sales tell Hasbro that people don't want D&D, leading to them cutting down the team and make future editions even worse. If you think the bean-counters are going to look at bad sales results and say, "Obviously we need to spend more money on this," I would say that's probably backwards.


Admittedly, I put too much faith in the "bean-counters" to find clarity for design through sales figures. But they must realize the potential draw in the brand name itself, thus they continue to find new markets and methods for the best possible results. Unfortunately, their expectations seem a little too high without some radical changes. But it seems to me they are happy to let the name brand and built in fanbase to carry most of the load, then hope for the best.

And since your OP suggests there's almost no new edition that could catch your interest, I don't know exactly what message you *want* to send.


That is a fair question, and to be honest, I don't have a single message to give them. I have many. And so do many other players, and not all of them are just like me. Some people see nothing wrong with the current models, and there's nothing wrong with that. Others would like to see something closer to 4th edition, but WotC would really need to let go of sacred cows and nostalgia to ever really move forward with it. There is no singular right answer that is going to appeal to everybody, which is why I can only speak for myself. And I finally chose to do so openly, so that others with the same sentiments might add their voice and say "Hey, its just not working out for us. We still love our old games, and we're going to keep playing them as we always have. It would be nice if you can still support them in a way that we know you are capable of doing, but we can see you have other ideas in mind."

I suppose I could write a laundry list of things I would want for the next game. Is that what's expected of me?
"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
I "think" I've learned a lot from these boards and my experiences with 4e.  Pretty much until 4e I thought every edition of D&D was better.  Not perfect but better than it's predecessor.  And that is the core three books.  I never consider anything beyond that point as core.  So most editions derail before a new one comes out.   I was genuinely surprised by 4e.  I went in eager and it took some time for me to reject it.  I came here and I learned why.  So these boards were great in providing my with information to help me define what it is I like about roleplaying games.  

So with 5e I am far better armed knowledge wise with what I want out of a game.  I will evaluate it more carefully before I buy.  Then if I like it well enough I will get it.  If not then I will stop.  I need to get away from buying things just to be buying them.  Right now I'm not sure how I feel about 5e.  I haven't even kept up with the playtest.  I hope for the best and I wait to see what comes out.  Either way I likely won't stop roleplaying. 
I make my voice heard through my wallet.
Well, that, and playtest feedback.



Well, since you've stated that you'll buy it anyways, guess wich of your voices WoTC is going to listen to...

Afterall, they don't give poo if your playing it.  Just if your buying it.
you missed where he said he was tired of buying the same thing over and over

I guess I got something different out of it; that he didn't want to buy any new games, regardless of the level of change.

The metagame is not the game.
I make my voice heard through my wallet.
Well, that, and playtest feedback.



Well, since you've stated that you'll buy it anyways, guess wich of your voices WoTC is going to listen to...

Afterall, they don't give poo if your playing it.  Just if your buying it.



 Probably not strictly true. The new books will sell well regardless just because of the D&D name. If they suck you will get a mass exodus.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I make my voice heard through my wallet.
Well, that, and playtest feedback.



Well, since you've stated that you'll buy it anyways, guess wich of your voices WoTC is going to listen to...

Afterall, they don't give poo if your playing it.  Just if your buying it.



 Probably not strictly true. The new books will sell well regardless just because of the D&D name. If they suck you will get a mass exodus.




This already happened with the launch of 4E.  Customers like Pathfinder fans will be wary of DDN for sure.

This already happened with the launch of 4E.  Customers like Pathfinder fans will be wary of DDN for sure.

Even Pathfinder-detractors will avoid buying 5E, if it's not a game they enjoy. Anyone who has been burned excessively in the past will be wary of the next bandwagon.

The metagame is not the game.
good post. when ya said... .

"If you produce a good, quality product and make a profit from selling it, I'd say you're a successful and respected business. But if you spend more effort trying to create a business model that will get consumers to continuously give you more money for a product of poor or questionable quality, then you will inevitably end up in a boardroom with whatever remains of your various project teams and managers, scratching your heads while trying to figure out why your competitors are now doing so much better than you."

This is exactly what eventually happened with TSR Inc. When Wizards bought them out TSR had no marketing reports, nothing to tell them why exactly it was that TSR been undone with many quality and not so quality products produced. In the end they decided that it was too many incompatable rule/settings systems, too much confusion, and then they trimmed the fat, got the IPs back, and did the OGL.

Reading this I'm kinda wondering if thats the exact same road were going down now except rather than incompatable worlds and settings, were getting incompatable rule systems. 4th dont go with 5th, which really wont go with 1st.

sigh...

very weary of the next bandwagon...
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
I make my voice heard through my wallet.
Well, that, and playtest feedback.



Well, since you've stated that you'll buy it anyways, guess wich of your voices WoTC is going to listen to...

Afterall, they don't give poo if your playing it.  Just if your buying it.



I'm a dedicated collector, and have been since 1E released.
Yes, I'll probably buy it. I bought all of 4E, too, and that didn't seem to keep it from going under...
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
To be fair to WotC- Many old time players see all the books, and all the years they've played D&D, but you see, WotC didn't publish all those books, nor did they get all that profit from the 1970's/1980's.

Then there's the two camps that do nothing but confuse them.

"You put out too many books!"
"We want more support! (Books)"

Show
Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity.... In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
This is why I support every new edition, even if I don't, personally, plan on playing the new edition.


You do realize, my friend, that this can do more harm than good? By blindly supporting bad designs and products, the entire industry could get a false idea of what customers really want. They need to get this right by making a *good* product, not based on what majority rules, old grognards, and online crowds demand. And recycling old ideas is certainly not the way. Nor is dropping lines that aren't living up to financial expectations while they're still inticing new blood to get interested. But by all means, do *not* give them false readings, lay down and take whatever they give you just because you think the game will die out.


This is why I won't buy splatbooks.  I don't want to encourage power creep.
To be fair to WotC- Many old time players see all the books, and all the years they've played D&D, but you see, WotC didn't publish all those books, nor did they get all that profit from the 1970's/1980's.


I'm an old time player looking at all my books and all the years playing D&D, so... are you really trying to tell me what my perspective is? Let's try a different one because it sounds like you're drawing at straws. ;)

"Fair" was giving 4th Edition the chance it deserved. A lot of people did that--perhaps reluctantly--and even bought into it. WotC took a chance, and so did we (some of us, anyway). But because they felt like they needed to win the market, they dropped it prematurely. Along with those that were being more than fair to them already. What's different this time (comparing to third edition) is that there is another flavor of DnD still being supported with quality products. Can you imagine if 4th Edition came out while there was *not* an alternative DnD to subscribe to?

That should speak more of the loyalty and "fairness" of people who gave 4th Edition a chance, bought into it, and stuck by it. Most did not ask for a new edition because many were not done with the last one. Do they not deserve to be treated fairly, too?
"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
To be fair to WotC- Many old time players see all the books, and all the years they've played D&D, but you see, WotC didn't publish all those books, nor did they get all that profit from the 1970's/1980's.


I'm an old time player looking at all my books and all the years playing D&D, so... are you really trying to tell me what my perspective is? Let's try a different one because it sounds like you're drawing at straws. ;)

"Fair" was giving 4th Edition the chance it deserved. A lot of people did that--perhaps reluctantly--and even bought into it. WotC took a chance, and so did we (some of us, anyway). But because they felt like they needed to win the market, they dropped it prematurely. Along with those that were being more than fair to them already. What's different this time (comparing to third edition) is that there is another flavor of DnD still being supported with quality products. Can you imagine if 4th Edition came out while there was *not* an alternative DnD to subscribe to?

That should speak more of the loyalty and "fairness" of people who gave 4th Edition a chance, bought into it, and stuck by it. Most did not ask for a new edition because many were not done with the last one. Do they not deserve to be treated fairly, too?



I said it out loud when I read your post so I thought I'd actually post it too:

Thank you.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There is a nice little self created divide here. Shame there can't be more acceptance instead. I feel that is where the future of the game should be.

All this vitriol, pushing away, retroactive retaliation, and preemptive striking needs to stop.

I keep trying but some won't let things go. Will you?

 

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus. Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.

Rather than rip each other apart maybe we should blame WoTC?

3.0 3 years
3.5 5 years
4th ed 4 years

 AN average of 4 year edition cycles. I wasn't ready to move on to 4th in 2008 regardless of how good it was or was not or in alternative inverse it was the best thing ever. It is 2013 now and I am ready to move on. problem is I'm looking at Pathfinder and retroclones and adopting a wait and see with D&DN. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Rather than rip each other apart maybe we should blame WoTC?

3.0 3 years
3.5 5 years
4th ed 4 years

 AN average of 4 year edition cycles. I wasn't ready to move on to 4th in 2008 regardless of how good it was or was not or in alternative inverse it was the best thing ever. It is 2013 now and I am ready to move on. problem is I'm looking at Pathfinder and retroclones and adopting a wait and see with D&DN. 



3.0 and 3.5 are one edition.  A new edition is so different that it is not compatible with any others.
Technically true but odds are if you played 3rd ed you went out and bought the 3.5 core books as conversion was not great. Also reveals WoTC 4 year anr burn em MtG business model.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Technically true but odds are if you played 3rd ed you went out and bought the 3.5 core books as conversion was not great. Also reveals WoTC 4 year anr burn em MtG business model.



While I did buy the 3.5 MM and PHB, I didn't buy the DMG since it was a waste of money and I still used my 3.0 splatbooks and other 3.0 monster books routinely.
Rather than rip each other apart maybe we should blame WoTC?


I don't feel anyone is ripping anyone else apart here. Don't be so dramatic! ;)

3.5 was more of an errata change than a cosmetic one, in my opinion. Though I wasn't thrilled about buying new books for what was technically the same game, I think it took more courage that Wizards (back when it was only Wizards!) owned up to some glaring issues with the original game system and put out something so quickly. Compared to 4th edition, with its 100+ pages of constant errata changes over a plethora of "core" books and then a half-hearted reboot in the form of Essentials, I look back on that instance with a little more appreciation.

(And I am sorely tempted to buy the newly re-released 3.5 core books because... oh hey! I still have that complete game system on my shelf and wouldn't mind an updated version with any previous errata! Remind me again why I need to be excited another upcoming edition. I'd be happier if they actually put out NEW playable material (*coughadventures!cough*) for one or two of the DnD systems I already have. ;)

"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."-Glen Cook, The Black Company
I will be straightforward.  I will buy the PH, DMG, and MM of the next edition.  I will not buy any other books.  I did this for 3E and 4E.  I'll admit that I bought the splatbooks for 2E.  I enjoyed reading them.

I will however buy adventures if I hear good reviews about them and they bring with them more than just a worn out storyline.

An adventure which brings music, videos, maps, handouts, strong storyline, enjoyable plot, interesting characters, and exciting combat scenes will be much more valuable to me than a book full of new spells, new feats, and a remix of abilities creating "new" classes.