Tier 1 shells after M13/Innistrad Block rotate out?

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So, with M13 and Innistrad Block fixing to rotate out here later in the year, is it too early to tell what Tier 1 shells will still be viable?

Put it another way, aside from collecting every dual land possible, what should folks look to hold on to/acquire from RtR and GTC to build a top tier deck from? 

Any insight from people who have gone through a big block rotation?  I'm going to guess that Innistrad block may have a relatively greater impact than other block outs.
Far too early to tell considering we only know what's in 2 of what will be 5 sets.

Hold onto dual lands obviously.  Charms will still be good, as will a bunch of the guildleaders.  But really any RTR/GTC card that sees heavy play now will likely remain useful going forward.
Who will win the presidential election of 2052?

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
I think he's asking for a deck like zombies, which when rotation occurred, was left almost entirely intact.  I'd wait for at least Dragon's Maze before asking though.
I'm asking for more like a gap analysis. 

For instance (to me anyway), blue seems to be hosed as far as creatues go post rotation.  No Auger, no Snapcaster.  For things like BWR, that's like half their creature base.  What can take their place from the current RTR/GTC, or what needs to happen in upcoming sets to keep these shells viable?

Also, what are you guys seeing in RTR/GTC that folks should hold onto, aside from the obvious dual lands and bombs like Sphinx Rev.  Any commons/uncommons that are likely to have good synergies as new sets come out, even if they don't now?

BTW, the answer to 2052 - a Latino (or Latina?)
Pres in 2052 is obviously going to be Chinese or Muslim, if current world population trends continue.

As for cards to hold on to-anything that looks very powerful but doesn't see play right now-Duskmantle Seer, Master Biomancer, Aurelia's Fury, the charms, heck I think Spell Rupture might start seeing play at some point.

(at)MrEnglish22

But presidents are not elected from the world population.  Trends in the US favor Hispanics as a group.  Asian and Muslim pops are rising, but not as fast.
But presidents are not elected from the world population.  Trends in the US favor Hispanics as a group.  Asian and Muslim pops are rising, but not as fast.



Implying that the Chinese/Muslims won't just take us over by 2052

(at)MrEnglish22

Yes, I'm assuming we'll be overrun from the south via land and by current internal population trends rather than from across the expanse of the pacific.
Chinese, okay.  But middle eastern ascendance?  The only thing they're gonna dominate is the **** they've been squabbling over for the last hundred-odd post-colonial years.

Also lol thread.  We're arguing over my de-rail.  Super awesome.


I guess if you want real input, the kind of stuff I traded for approaching the end of last standard was similar to what Jman said.  Falkenrath Aristocrat, Olivia, Sigarda, Huntmaster were all hilariously undervalued, so I snapped them up.  Basically if you have any card-evaluation skills whatsoever, just hang onto/pick up cards that are glaringly just good.  If absolutely nothing else, new standard formats are defined more by power than synergy, and later, synergy develops around the powerful cards.

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
Islands wrote:
Pack Rat is like Bitterblossom and Tarmogoyf had a black baby.
So stuff like, say Fathom Mage, Biovisionary, Duskmantle Seer, and the Primordials from GTC.  Keepers?
Between Ash Zealot, Boros Reckoner, Annihilating Fire (ugh) and whichever burn spell ends up in M13, RDW won't be terrible, expect a hilarious spike on Reckoner and Zealot come October.
RDW is losing a lot of low drops like Stromkirk Noble, Stonewright, Vexing Devil, Lightning Mauler, the big daddys Hellrider, Zealous Conscripts, and Thundermaw Hellkite, the always 4-of Searing Spear, and other burn like Brimstone Volley, Thunderbolt, Flames of the Firebrand, and Pillar of Flame

Oh, and Islands will be losing Tibalt.

Guess you could top out at Reckoner, but I'm hoping to see something comparable to Hellrider pop up in DM and M14.  And Mugging is a poor replacement for Pillar.

I think unless there is a flurry of good red cards, we're gonna have to turn that "W" upside down and make it RDM - Red Deck, Meh.
Firefist Striker, Ghor-House Chainwalker, Legion Loyalist, Ash Zealot, Boros Reckoner, and Mugging should all see RDW plays post-rotation. A T1 Loyalist into a T2 Burning-Tree+Madcap Skills is 5 dmg over two turns, and being able to play cheap creatures and diminish blockers with the Striker and Mugging is fine. 

GDW will maindeck Rubblebelt Raiders I bet. 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

So stuff like, say Fathom Mage, Biovisionary, Duskmantle Seer, and the Primordials from GTC.  Keepers?


Two of those have potential, yes. The bad one costs 3.
If you can get foil Primordials at a cheap price (3-4 dollars or less) then do so and hold on to them-EDH players are going to start eating them up, and about 1-2 years down the line they are gonna be worth 6+, with the black and green ones topping the list. Otherwise, I suggest avoiding them.

Also, get Niv Mizzets. And trade away your INN block lands while you can-they don't see much (if any) play in Modern that I can think of so the prices will tank simply because they aren't as good as shocks/fetches. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Searing Spear isn't going anywhere, and if it does, it'll be replaced by a strictly better card; there's no way they'd send us back to Volcanic Hammer at this point.

I forgot Rakdos Cackler and Legion Loyalist, plus Foundry Street Denizen could work if we get desperate, not to mention Rakdos Shred-Freak (sad) and Act of Treason to top out the curve.

In lieu of another glaringly obvious deck immediately post-rotation, a decent version of RDW will top 8 on the day of the fall set's release.
I'm guessing all the Reanimator shells will be hosed unless Unburial Rites gets reprinted.  Or do they always print some sort of vehicle for reanimation?

For the RDW, don't forget the Wierds in a pinch...

i'm holding onto or acquiring things like Rakdos, Lord of Riots and Rakdos's Return, Dreadbore,  Necropolis Regent, Trostani.  What are some of the other RTR/GTC things you folks think might be flexible utility cards in future shells?
Abrubt Decay, Supreme Verdict, Jace AoT, and Niv-Mizzet should be added to that list. Other than that, your list seems pretty good Zoo.

(at)MrEnglish22

I know what I will be holding on to from my deck; Aurelia the warleader , Assemble the legion, Boros reckonor (love him) and I think centaur healer is going to see my main-board as all my other healers will be taken out    (thragtusk + huntmaster) 8: .

P.S. I love my assemble the legion deck just made it yesterday and 4-0d in the standard 4 round on MTGO. Never gonna let it go.
Chinese, okay.  But middle eastern ascendance?  The only thing they're gonna dominate is the **** they've been squabbling over for the last hundred-odd post-colonial years.

Also lol thread.  We're arguing over my de-rail.  Super awesome.



You mean that big ugly mess that has been around since the relative dawn of modern man  where people fight over legitmacy and kill over teachers who told them to forgive indescriminately?

On topic,  We have 3 sets between now and the next standard season- DGM, M14 and Friends, I'm pretty sure that they are all going to have super gross cards that warp the meta.
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You mean that big ugly mess that has been around since the relative dawn of modern man  where people fight over legitmacy and kill over teachers who told them to forgive indescriminately?



Lets all forget that Persia was both the cultural, and intellectual center of the world for pretty much the entire middle ages, or the fact that the entire reason the crusades happened was an attempt to reclaim all of the knowledge and information lost when Europe fell into the dark ages. Oh, and that its also home to one of the oldest known human civilizations.

As a matter of fact, many scholars and historians believe that if it weren't for Genghis Khan and his Mongol army invading that area of the world (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Gaza, Palestine, and even into parts of Turkey) that the vast majority of the world would be speaking some combination of Persian, Kurdish, Azerbaijan and Arabic right now.

Keep in mind that the Mongols invaded that area around roughly 1250-1300. It took until around the middle of the 20th century for the population to reach the levels it was at before the Mongol invasion.

Food for thought.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
Well yeah, it isn't hard to become the intellectual center of the world when a plague kills off over half your competetor's populations and sets you back a couple hundred years.

(at)MrEnglish22

Dat derail.
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20802.jpg
Well yeah, it isn't hard to become the intellectual center of the world when a plague kills off over half your competetor's populations and sets you back a couple hundred years.



Yeah, the Plague had a pretty big effect, but then again so did the Europeans burning every piece of text they could get their hands on that wasn't somehow associated with the Bible.

I wasn't just the Plague that set Europe back a couple hundred years.

The joy of off topic conversation...

"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."

Food for thought.



I was thinking bigger picture- Man has fought with itself (with record to prove it) since there was stake in the Tigris, Euphrates and Indus Rivers. And the conflict which has existed and evolved through every permutation of mankind, The conflict supposedly began when children of Abraham began to divide themselves and claim righteousness- which has repeatedly snowballed throughout recorded history consuming other peoples, entire cultures, nations, religions etc.This sort of phenomena is not the fault of any one group particular, but all parties involved have always believed it to be so. It has in some way left a void in the world where people purge and purge without hesitation or mercy, even though the very books they live by speek highly of such things. It's the part of the world where ideal has torn reality into pieces and through escelating misfortune a constant state of warfare is commonplace.

Understand that I'm not knocking Persia, it's easily one of my favorite societies to look at- but Persia wasn't a giant consuming being. It didn't suddenly make people tolerate one another- Persia simply claimed the land it's own. Also, to be fair if Ghengis Kahn's progeny weren't so misfortunate we'd have much more Mongolian culture to think about other than beef prepared with soy sauce and vegetables.
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Food for thought.



I was thinking bigger picture- Man has fought with itself (with record to prove it) since there was stake in the Tigris, Euphrates and Indus Rivers. And the conflict which has existed and evolved through every permutation of mankind, The conflict supposedly began when children of Abraham began to divide themselves and claim righteousness- which has repeatedly snowballed throughout recorded history consuming other peoples, entire cultures, nations, religions etc.This sort of phenomena is not the fault of any one group particular, but all parties involved have always believed it to be so. It has in some way left a void in the world where people purge and purge without hesitation or mercy, even though the very books they live by speek highly of such things. It's the part of the world where ideal has torn reality into pieces and through escelating misfortune a constant state of warfare is commonplace.

Understand that I'm not knocking Persia, it's easily one of my favorite societies to look at- but Persia wasn't a giant consuming being. It didn't suddenly make people tolerate one another- Persia simply claimed the land it's own. Also, to be fair if Ghengis Kahn's progeny weren't so misfortunate we'd have much more Mongolian culture to think about other than beef prepared with soy sauce and vegetables.



As much as I am in staunch opposition to the whole Judeao-Christian belief structure, you cant exactly say that it, or the area where it originated from are directly the problem. The same things can be said of just about every major human culture/religion to have existed. Some people would be surprised to find out that there exist such things as fanatical Buddhists and militant Hindus, but they DO in fact exist.

Even here in the U.S. which is supposedly a "free" and "rational" nation, we have citizens who succumb to the same emotions. The people who believe we should just nuke the middle east, or some other such non-sense, without even taking a second to consider that a good portion of those people are innocent and the threat is more perceived than actually existent.

It is an issue we as human beings simply can not avoid. The inherent xenophobia and paranoia in human kind can be directly linked to our evolution. It was a survival instinct that at one point in our history helped us to propagate as a species.

The problem is, we have now come to a point where we have evolved past the need for such instincts, and such relics of our ancient past must be discarded, as they have become useless and only serve to hamper our further evolution as a species.

The only question is how to do so. This is a question mankind, both as a whole, and as an individual, still struggles with on an almost daily basis.

Now then, rather than wax philosophical all day, I will get back on topic.

The Zombie decks are likely to be going bye-bye with the loss of Gravecrawler and Messenger.

Human decks will be losing quite a bit, but Champion of the Parish will likely be the biggest loss.

Aggro as a whole will likely take a hit with the loss of most of their haste threats, Aristocrat, Hellrider, and Hellkite.

Reanimator may no longer exist, with the loss of Unburial Rites, Havengul Lich, Defy Death, and Rise from the Grave. Unless you somehow classify Immortal Servitude as reanimation they will need to print/re-print another reanimation effect for it to be a thing.

Loss of Restoration Angel, Thragtusk, Olivia, GoST, Hellkite, Aristocrat, Huntmaster and Wolf Run will hurt most midrange decks in the format.

Most of the CA/filtering in the format will be gone, Think Twice, Alchemy, Looting, Ravings which may hurt control.

No more Drownyard and Jace 3 may mean mill as an alt win-con for control matchups may stop being a thing.

That is all I can think of off the top of my head at the moment.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."


As much as I am in staunch opposition to the whole Judeao-Christian belief structure, you cant exactly say that it, or the area where it originated from are directly the problem. The same things can be said of just about every major human culture/religion to have existed. Some people would be surprised to find out that there exist such things as fanatical Buddhists and militant Hindus, but they DO in fact exist.

Even here in the U.S. which is supposedly a "free" and "rational" nation, we have citizens who succumb to the same emotions. The people who believe we should just nuke the middle east, or some other such non-sense, without even taking a second to consider that a good portion of those people are innocent and the threat is more perceived than actually existent.

It is an issue we as human beings simply can not avoid. The inherent xenophobia and paranoia in human kind can be directly linked to our evolution. It was a survival instinct that at one point in our history helped us to propagate as a species.

The problem is, we have now come to a point where we have evolved past the need for such instincts, and such relics of our ancient past must be discarded, as they have become useless and only serve to hamper our further evolution as a species.

The only question is how to do so. This is a question mankind, both as a whole, and as an individual, still struggles with on an almost daily basis.
.



Now you've really confused me. My comment was to prod at the snowballing conflicts in one particularly unfortunate region of the world, not to express xenophobia or misanthropism. I wholly agree that saying we should demolish any civilization is a ridiculous statement, but what's fascinating is that some of the people of that portion of the world do more harm to themselves and their surroundings than any of us in the western world could ever want to do, and it hasn't stopped since siblings started fighting over who owned what they deemed "holy land".

 I think you're reading too far into the subtext of my statements as personal fears or prejudices, while I am thinking more in line of intrigue. It's a pattern, a bouncing ball, and an interesting one because Syria, Lebanon, Israel and Jordan are repeatedly made victim to civil conflict that only escelates to become worse and worse as we (the rest of the world) try to stick our noses into it, and tell them "what we know is right".

As for other militant groups, that's a different discusssion entirely :P
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Whoah, I haven't seen a derailment of this magnitude since Super 8! (Bad-oom Thsss!)

On topic, I'd say it's a bit early to make very accurate predictions; we need more information. That being said, I'd go with URx, WGx, and WBx as potential decks to watch. Just shooting in the dark, of course. As for individual cards, after setting aside the obvious (Shocklands), I'm thinking that Ghost Dad 2.0, AoS, and Verdict are all pretty safe calls. Daring to go deeper, my picks for sleeper hits would include Niv-Mizzet, Trostani, Gyre Sage (if this counts as a sleeper), Deadbridge Goliath, and possibly Isperia, Supreme Judge.
Remember, all speculation is purely speculative. Laughing

"I will diminish, and go into the west, and there remain SgtPepperjack. Y'know, you really ought to come along with me."

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Being obvious, play RTR block constructed and find the best decks there.


Being more on-topic and perhaps useful, wait some more. We know 2/5 sets for the next block.
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Cheers!

Thanks for the on-topic analysis Eonblueapocalypse1, SgtPepperjack! That's the kind of thing I was looking for.


As far as the tangential discussions, have at it! I'm stoked that the thread I started can be a source for non-MTG discussion.

tl;dr

i think there is still enough time and sets yet to come out to not even worry about something like this.  would you agree? 

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tl;dr

i think there is still enough time and sets yet to come out to not even worry about something like this.  would you agree? 



PPPPPPP

(that's Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance)

I'm just trying to wrap my head around what happens when a block and core set rotate out (only started playing ar RtR).  Especially a block with as many relevant cards as the Innistrad block.

tl;dr

i think there is still enough time and sets yet to come out to not even worry about something like this.  would you agree? 



PPPPPPP

(that's Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance)

I'm just trying to wrap my head around what happens when a block and core set rotate out (only started playing ar RtR).  Especially a block with as many relevant cards as the Innistrad block.




While no one can fault you for preparing for the future and planning ahead, the biggest issue is just lack of information. We still have DGM, the first set of Friends block, and M14 to be released before Innistrad goes bye-bye.

While we may be able to get a cursory idea of what the meta will look like due to Innistrad rotating, the lack of information makes any inference we make just speculation.

For example I mentioned Reanimator earlier. When Innistrad rotates all of the current Reanimation spells in Standard will no longer be legal (except Immortal Servitude which isn't your traditional Reanimation effect).

From this info we can assume that Reanimator decks will not exist come rotation. The issue with this though is that by the time Innistrad rotates out we will have 3 other sets worth of cards to consider (which are currently unknown to us), any of which could contain a decent Reanimation spell and thus Reanimator decks would likely still exist.

With such a large lack of information, it is difficult to make any sort of assumptions with any certainty. A thread like this will get more activity and discussion as we get closer and closer to the release of Friends block and we can make inferences not only based on what cards we are losing (which is basically all we can do right now), but also on what cards we are gaining as well.

tl;dr

Too soon....


"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
Ditto Zooligan- I came back after years and years at RtR. I want to make sure any investment I make holds value for a while.

My suspicions are that Wizards wants to slow down the format. Most speed decks will be significantly hindered. We'll still have Shocklands till the next block, but I don't know that the Innstrad type taplands will be returning for M2014, since we'll also have the guildgates. Conversely, we've got lots of multicolor and gold cards, and they're going to continue encouraging multicolor decks through the whole RtR block. I expect Prophetic Prism and Chromatic Lantern will be more important when half the dual-lands always come into play tapped. Same for cards like Thespian's Stage. We may see 5-color greed/omnidoor type decks coming in as a new archetype- what their focus will be (apart from ramp) is anybody's guess- with enough mana, you've got a ton of viable win-cons.

My suggestion- prepare by building your mana-base with shocklands, and you'll be more ready to adapt to the changing format.
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Yeah, that's pretty much my approach - hoard shocklands, keep 4 copies of all gates, and collect what seems like high-utility cards like Detention Sphere, Rakdos's Return, Sphinx's Rev, Abrupt Decay, etc.
Like Zooligan said, expect versatile, high power cards to maintain or gain value as long as they are in standard:
Supreme Verdict
Detention Sphere
Sphinx's Revelation
Rakdos's Return
Deathrite Shaman
Dreadbore
Abrupt Decay
Loxodon Smiter
Domri Rade
Jace, Architect of Thought
Ash Zealot
Chromatic Lantern
Lotleth Troll //depends on what kind of graveyard shenanigans DGM/Friends offers in the way of /, his potential takes a huge hit from rotation.
Mizzium Mortars
Slaughter Games //on the lower end, at least its playable in multiple formats.
Almost all guild leaders, shocks, blah blah.

Some cards that are powerful enough to see play (and/or high single-, double-digit prices) if and when the meta and card pool shifts:
Rubblebelt Raiders
Hypersonic Dragon
Aurelia's Fury
Duskmantle Seer
Master Biomancer
Clan Defiance //this is about as good value as you can get for $0.25 rares right now.
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I'm going to play Jund, ramp into Slaughter Games, and name Ruric Thar, the Unbowed.
I'm going to play Jund, ramp into Slaughter Games, and name Ruric Thar, the Unbowed.



Yeah, the fact that dude is real makes me want to quit magic. Not joking.

(at)MrEnglish22

I'm going to play Jund, ramp into Slaughter Games, and name Ruric Thar, the Unbowed.



Yeah, the fact that dude is real makes me want to quit magic. Not joking.



Meh, Ruric obviously wants to be ramped into, but he also happens to punish playing a lot of non-creature ramp. So there is that. It may not make much of a difference at that point (once Ruric hits the table), but having all your ramp become dead draws once he is down could be annoying, and at least partially counter-productive to the Kessig Wolf Run plan that Ruric will most likely be played along with.

I have a strange feeling that Ruric is going to do something with Heartless Summoning though.


"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
He looks beastly, but there are still ways of dealing with him. Angel of Serenity, Shadowborn Demon (from M14) and Luminate Primordial, all deal with him, although obviously each has a drawback of their own. 
Also, I'd like to see the other champions prior to freeeeking out. 

"I will diminish, and go into the west, and there remain SgtPepperjack. Y'know, you really ought to come along with me."

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I'm going to play Jund, ramp into Slaughter Games, and name Ruric Thar, the Unbowed.



Yeah, the fact that dude is real makes me want to quit magic. Not joking.


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