Some general questions and thoughts about catch-22s

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Hey there. 

I really want to build some nice damage focused catch-22 build, but i'm struggling because nearly everything seems to be errata'd to immediate actions and that lowers the damage potential very much, especially considering the effort (feats,abilities,MCs) for such a build and the damage loss that comes along with passing strong damage options that a straight forward optimized striker would pick.
So, i wanted to ask you guys, if i should just let go and drop the idea of such a build, or if there really still are builds out there, that can pull off multi-attacker-ish damage on a regular (encounter at least, at-will at best) basis. And if not, what ideas you guys got for making such builds.



What i got so far (please don't mind to correct me, if there's a mistake in it): 


1) WLMR+Hellish Rebuke+Shadowdance Armor+Glasya's Rebuke (for one more Vul ping)+Stormraider theme+Familiar Harrier power swap (the latter two to ensure they can't flee without teleporting (got to pick up this one anti-teleport weapon vs foes that can) or eating an Eldritch Strike which will slide them back adjacent. One very good thing about it would be, that this would work independent of PP/ED, so i could pick Morninglord + Radiant One and maybe hybrid Swordmage for more multiattacks and Firewind Blade as an implement, for example or do something else, that boosts my damage.
(Thanks to Zathris for his ideas and finding the Stormraider+Familiar Harrier synergy!) 

2) Anything that involves Polearm Gamble. I got some vague ideas, but didn't really find something that would work properly. If there would just be a way to get 2 OAs per turn, you could go with one of the several ways to make your MBA sliding two squares and dish out the first OA, slide 1 away and 1 back adjacent and make Polearm Gamble procc. But that seems to be impossible. This way is very ability heavy, as well, and that would force us to some ugly ability spread, if we wanted to achieve this without being Str/Wis per default.
A second way would be not to procc Polearm Gamble by sliding an enemy back with the OA, but to force him to come back on his next turn after pushing/sliding him away. That would require some really strong mark mechanic and i don't know if enemies would obey any mark, if they eat a MBA, every time they obey.

3) Anything that involves Riposte Strike. This should basically the same as WLMR without the loop thing that hellish rebuke offers, if i'm not mistaken. However the advantage that this one has, is that it doesn't need 2 feats to make it work. And it's a weapon attack, so it opens Heavy Blade Opportunity, which has the right ability requirement, as well. 

4) Some trick involving Heavy Blade Opportunity, Tactical Warpriest's f16 and Twin Strike. Some time ago, i posted a build like this with an at-will that wouldn't work. Somebody gave me the advice that i could try it with Twin Strike instead and that would work. 
The goal is to spread Tac Warpriest's mark with every OA you get to the next enemy in the initiative order, so you can OA every enemy adjacent every round, but only IF they disobey your mark. So, what i failed to achieve with this build was basically to make them NOT want to attack me, no matter what, so basically it only was half a catch-22. Didn't know how to do this, so i forgot about this build. I just can't imagine, what sort of punishment for ignoring me could counter-balance eating that high amount of OAs per round for Team Monster. Maybe some of you have an idea.

Most Catch-22s involve either very specific combinations or two players with some basics.  Personally I like the latter.  Defender with a good mark punishment + Guardian etc.

Riposte Strike fits in quite well, although you might look into Vigilante Justice Style to make your riposte that much more annoying.

For us to give any sort of meaningful help you should pick an idea, or multiple ideas and build from it.  Then we can comment on the respective strengths and weaknesses to help you move forward.  Otherwise there is too much subject matter and too many variables for most people to hold a meaningful conversation. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Thanks for the response. I'm trying to present some concrete builds in here, soon.

Btw.:
Could a perma-hidden build make 4) work?
Thanks for the response. I'm trying to present some concrete builds in here, soon.

Btw.:
Could a perma-hidden build make 4) work?



I have no idea.  Also it doesn't matter as perma hidden is a terrible terrible plan.  Always.  Don't make your friends hate you by forcing your DM to play well.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Regarding permahidden: I think the Eladrin Executioner build (something like that) goes for that.

EDIT: here it is.
Thanks for the response. I'm trying to present some concrete builds in here, soon.

Btw.:
Could a perma-hidden build make 4) work?



I have no idea.  Also it doesn't matter as perma hidden is a terrible terrible plan.  Always.  Don't make your friends hate you by forcing your DM to play well.

Perma-hidden is not always a terrible plan.   But you need the whole party to play along.  Otherwise your there's no provoking.

Also, i'm not sure you can get it, twin-strike, and tactical warpriest all at the same time.  Though i do have an invisible defender build (and there's an invisible monk somewhere).  And you might steal a few riposte ideas/items from here

#2 can use an assault swordmage hybrid.  You could concivably dump Int.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The whole party breaks combat too.

You destroy and encounter or two without taking damage and you start facing monsters with blindsight/truesight. Suddenly you've sunk a ton of resources into something that doesn't really help you except out of combat.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
The whole party breaks combat too.

You destroy and encounter or two without taking damage and you start facing monsters with blindsight/truesight. Suddenly you've sunk a ton of resources into something that doesn't really help you except out of combat.

I didn't mean the whole party needed permastealth (though, yea, that works great, untill your DM decides it doesn't).

I meant you needed the party to play along.  A soldier who is marked and adjacent to a fighter won't provoke an OA.  If your avenger teleports away with a brute won't provoke an OA.  Ect...

You need to have a swordmage who marks the artillary and teleports away.  Or a wizard who can slide someone right next to you.  Then you'll get OA's, and only with that party wide coordination will permastealth finally be worth while.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Mellored, while that does help with dealing damage, it does not help the fact the hidden party member is not taking his/her share of the damage the monsters are handing out.
Mellored, while that does help with dealing damage, it does not help the fact the hidden party member is not taking his/her share of the damage the monsters are handing out.

True, but dead things deal no damage.  (OA's are interupts).

Or, you can add some control.  Like if flail + eldrich strike + white lotus evasion.  So no one takes damage.

Or, you can give surges (artificer, comrad's succor, lay on hand).

And finally, you can always choose to NOT hide.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Well, if you hadn't guessed it, my preference is not sinking feats or other cost, and going straight for option 4
Mellored, while that does help with dealing damage, it does not help the fact the hidden party member is not taking his/her share of the damage the monsters are handing out.



Doesn't matter, if the DM is playing correctly.  It cannot ever be a bad idea to make your character strictly better.  Comrade's Succor handles the surge issue between encounters.
Mellored, while that does help with dealing damage, it does not help the fact the hidden party member is not taking his/her share of the damage the monsters are handing out.



Doesn't matter, if the DM is playing correctly.  It cannot ever be a bad idea to make your character strictly better.  Comrade's Succor handles the surge issue between encounters.



Except you are losing a surge to cast the ritual.  And it assumes you have the time.  And it assumes it is "better" to have the monsters focus fire your buddy and kill him because he /she can be targeted.

I'd say it would be really a hard sell to prove a perma-stealth character is "better" than an equal level optimized character of the same or similar class.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Mellored, while that does help with dealing damage, it does not help the fact the hidden party member is not taking his/her share of the damage the monsters are handing out.



Doesn't matter, if the DM is playing correctly.  It cannot ever be a bad idea to make your character strictly better.  Comrade's Succor handles the surge issue between encounters.



Except you are losing a surge to cast the ritual.  And it assumes you have the time.  And it assumes it is "better" to have the monsters focus fire your buddy and kill him because he /she can be targeted.

I'd say it would be really a hard sell to prove a perma-stealth character is "better" than an equal level optimized character of the same or similar class.



It may be a hard sell that perma-stealth is worth the opportunity cost of feats, etc. invested.  It is not a hard sell - it is, in fact, trivially obvious - that perma-stealth is not intrinsically harmful because "you aren't taking your share of the damage".  That is just incredibly muddled thinking.  That sort of thinking would also say it would be bad if your DM granted you a bonus feat "increase defenses to infinity", even though it would be a strict improvement to your character and party.
Mellored, while that does help with dealing damage, it does not help the fact the hidden party member is not taking his/her share of the damage the monsters are handing out.



Doesn't matter, if the DM is playing correctly.  It cannot ever be a bad idea to make your character strictly better.  Comrade's Succor handles the surge issue between encounters.



Except you are losing a surge to cast the ritual.  And it assumes you have the time.  And it assumes it is "better" to have the monsters focus fire your buddy and kill him because he /she can be targeted.

I'd say it would be really a hard sell to prove a perma-stealth character is "better" than an equal level optimized character of the same or similar class.



It may be a hard sell that perma-stealth is worth the opportunity cost of feats, etc. invested.  It is not a hard sell - it is, in fact, trivially obvious - that perma-stealth is not intrinsically harmful because "you aren't taking your share of the damage".  That is just incredibly muddled thinking.  That sort of thinking would also say it would be bad if your DM granted you a bonus feat "increase defenses to infinity", even though it would be a strict improvement to your character and party.



Generally speaking you don't want your DM to focus fire someone down.  If the DM has less targets they are, again generally speaking, more likely to be forced to focus fire.

In incidents where the DM is already focus firing a lot it matters a whole heck of a lot less.  But CharOp assumes Block of Tofu DMs.  Basically it isn't that you aren't taking your share of the damage, but rather encouraging good play from your DM.  And that isn't really what you want to be advocating for.

And yes, it is a hard sell, in many groups, to just have a player not get targeted at all by much of anything.  And, even more to the point, the characters that get built with permastealth in mind get royally trounced if they come across something that can see them all the time.  Tremorsense, Truesight, encounters with lots of large bursts/blasts will all trivialise the investment into permastealth.  So you have a case where one guy is always on the fringes not getting hit when its going good for him, and sometimes getting turned into a pile of goo when his trick doesnt work. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I will once again itterate.  Permastealth is for party-op.  Don't do it unless your allies are playing along (which means they also know they will take more hits).

And, even more to the point, the characters that get built with permastealth in mind get royally trounced if they come across something that can see them all the time.  Tremorsense, Truesight, encounters with lots of large bursts/blasts will all trivialise the investment into permastealth.  So you have a case where one guy is always on the fringes not getting hit when its going good for him, and sometimes getting turned into a pile of goo when his trick doesnt work.

So is a pyromancer when fighting a fire immune creature.
Or a radiant cleric when fighting a radiant immune creature.
Or a striker against a large group of minions.
Or a charge build in a small room.


Also, pixies don't care about tremorsense.  And the mark of the darkmoon solves most of the burst issue.  Truesight still screws you though.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Also, i'm not sure you can get it, twin-strike, and tactical warpriest all at the same time.  Though i do have an invisible defender build (and there's an invisible monk somewhere).  And you might steal a few riposte ideas/items from here.


You need to point out the Void Defender in your sig.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Permastealth is for party-op.


And for Lair Assault.  After a situation where it was a guaranteed TPK no matter what class I brought, I was thankful to actually survive and complete the LA with one hitpoint remaining due to being a permastealth character.

It also made the prior steal-the-macguffin portion of the LA rather trivial.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Also, i'm not sure you can get it, twin-strike, and tactical warpriest all at the same time.  Though i do have an invisible defender build (and there's an invisible monk somewhere).  And you might steal a few riposte ideas/items from here.


You need to point out the Void Defender in your sig.

It's here.

Though i don't really consider it a catch-22, because the enemy has no choice, he's simply at a huge penalty to hit, or can't attack at all.

Nor is it damage of any sort.  Though i kinda want to make a paladin version, who will do damage.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

That sort of thinking would also say it would be bad if your DM granted you a bonus feat "increase defenses to infinity", even though it would be a strict improvement to your character and party.



It would be. You could hardly think of a worse thing to do. Also, your logic is wrong on what that feat does: while it's a strict improvement to my character, it's strictly harmful to the party.

Generally speaking you don't want your DM to focus fire someone down.  If the DM has less targets they are, again generally speaking, more likely to be forced to focus fire.



If your DM is playing correctly, and you don't want him to focus fire, then he'll already focus fire even if you weren't permastealth.  This is trivial game theory; encounters are zero-sum.
It would be. You could hardly think of a worse thing to do. Also, your logic is wrong on what that feat does: while it's a strict improvement to my character, it's strictly harmful to the party.



Wrong.  This is precisely the kind of muddled thinking I was complaining about, and precisely why the CharOppers who know what they really mean* should say it clearly rather than in shorthand.

Encounters are zero-sum; a strict improvement to one character is also a strict improvement to the party, unless your DM is playing poorly.

*permastealth is bad because of the high opportunity cost and the diminishing returns to high defenses; returns that diminish because the DM has the option of targeting someone other than you 
Encounters are zero-sum; a strict improvement to one character is also a strict improvement to the party, unless your DM is playing poorly.



Complete nonsense. 4e is a game about synergy. If I gain personal power but lose an equivalent amount of synergy, I have made my character better in a vacuum but the party worse.

It's also cursorily disproven by the effect of Arcane Defiling, which makes you strictly better while hurting everyone else.
Mello has the right of it.

Part-Op or don't do it.  If there is even 1 guy who is not hidden making permastealth characters is a really bad plan (unless you want that one guy to reroll a permastealth character).

On another note Mello - The immunity thing is so much less likely to come up than the others.  If Radiant Immunity to an all radiant party was something that came up a lot, yeah it would be on the same tier.  But even if it is completely immune to radiant most of the mafia can "turn off" their radiant ability and still be fine. (And some abilities are fairly uneffected, like Pervasive Light doesn't care as long as you somehow got vuln radiant, even if you are immune to radiant).

Having multiple uncommon silver bullets to the same build is not the same thing has having one or two rare silver bullets to the same build.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
At epic you can also cut through radiant immunity.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Encounters are zero-sum; a strict improvement to one character is also a strict improvement to the party, unless your DM is playing poorly.



Complete nonsense. 4e is a game about synergy. If I gain personal power but lose an equivalent amount of synergy, I have made my character better in a vacuum but the party worse.



This is semantically empty.  You're now throwing around important-sounding words to make it seem like you have a clue what you're talking about.  You've snuck in a muddled reference to the opportunity cost of permastealth; the fact that permastealth might not be worth the opportunity cost is not under discussion.  The claim under discussion - the claim that is obviously, trivially false if you are thinking clearly - is that even without an opportunity cost, permastealth is bad because it causes the DM to focus fire.

Encounters are zero-sum, therefore removing one of the DM's options (the option of attacking a particular character) cannot make him better off, if he is playing correctly.

It's also cursorily disproven by the effect of Arcane Defiling, which makes you strictly better while hurting everyone else.



Arcane Defiling doesn't make your character strictly better.  Unfriendliness of powers is part of their quality.  Your argument is either disingenuous or stupid.
People regularly take a feat that provides +3 to NADs (Improved Defenses) and rate it gold.  By the logic some are using in this thread, that feat would become red if it gave +100 to NADs instead, because it would cause the DM to focus fire.
It is perfectly true that a defender can have too high defences.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
No, it isn't.  A defender can invest too much in defense instead of mark punishment.  But aside from the opportunity cost, there is no downside to higher defenses.
People regularly take a feat that provides +3 to NADs (Improved Defenses) and rate it gold.  By the logic some are using in this thread, that feat would become red if it gave +100 to NADs instead, because it would cause the DM to focus fire.



Permastealth doesn't just require a feat.

It has 3 specific problems in comparison:
Cheap semi-permastealth(aka be a Drow, Gnome, Shade or pick up Invisibility until EoNT from somewhere else, MC Binder) is nearly as effective in a practical sense as full-blown permastealth. If after the 3rd round, the DM switches to attack you instead of who he should be attacking, that's a win. Or if the DM can no longer attack you because you disappeared, that too is a win. Except now you don't need to commit your class choice. You can be an archer ranger, a monk that prevents shifts with an MBA and Combat Superiority, a sorcerer, some kind of hybrid, etc...you don't need to be a Rogue|Warlock or Rogue|Assassin.

Being hidden means the opponent doesn't really have the option of attacking you. Improved Defenses means you're harder to hurt without the opponent realizing until after attacking you that it was a bad choice. Maybe not even then.

There is a build opportunity cost. If you're the traditional perma-stealth build, you're a Striker spending significant options on not-damage that ultimately accelerates the party resource burn at no real benefit to the party - opponents don't die as fast, so they get more attacks, when they attack, the surge burn gets focused onto specific characters instead of everyone, and Comrade's Succor makes surges disappear.
Yes, thank you for agreeing with all of my posts in this thread.
So...

How about catch-22's?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Unfriendliness of powers is part of their quality.  Your argument is either disingenuous or stupid.



Permastealth is a party unfriendly ability.

A defender can invest too much in defense instead of mark punishment.  But aside from the opportunity cost, there is no downside to higher defenses.



Once it becomes objectively better to ignore attacking an unhittable defender, he just becomes a sub-par striker.
No, it isn't.  A defender can invest too much in defense instead of mark punishment.  But aside from the opportunity cost, there is no downside to higher defenses.



Except that opportunity cost is never something that you can discount.

Also once you go too much beyond the rest of the party, you become invulnerable but the party squishy is dead, because instead of camped outside the Algarian Stronghold, Torak just went and plundered Sendaria instead.

If your defences are too high you will be ignored, if you are ignored you are not doing your job and your party will suffer for it. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

Generally speaking you don't want your DM to focus fire someone down.  If the DM has less targets they are, again generally speaking, more likely to be forced to focus fire.



If your DM is playing correctly, and you don't want him to focus fire, then he'll already focus fire even if you weren't permastealth.  This is trivial game theory; encounters are zero-sum.



Except that's an assumption that the DM is playing correctly, that there is a 'correct' action, and that the DM will attack the 'correct' target regardless of other considerations.

As an easy example, there have been many, many times where I've known the 'correct' action for a group of enemy monsters is to Coup de Grace the downed PC, even if that's not necessarily even a good route for the monsters to win the fight - because it will make it more likely down the road that the PCs will lose.

But for most DMs, the goal is not to beat the PCs, but rather to make the players feel that they accomplished something significant by winning and have fun while doing so.
Permastealth is dumb because the meta-game surrounding it is more trouble than it's worth.

It's also dumb because it's not a direct improvement to the character, it's basically the same issue as ongoing, you're making investments on damage later instead of damage now; as well as investments on being untargetable that frankly aren't that significant. Admittedly the damage later is larger than with ongoing, but the odds are not in your favor of it mattering vs increasing damage now.

Basically it's an improvement:


  • If the enemy choses to provoke instead of attack you, your OA hits and is enough to kill it but increasing your Damage Now would not be.

  • If the enemy choses to provoke instead of attack you, your OA hits and isn't enough to kill it, your Ally isn't hit whereas you otherwise would have been.

  • If the enemy choses to attack you, and misses because you are hidden, and you otherwise would have been hit.

"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
What catch 22's do others deem good or ideal? What classes provide catch 22's? Also, why is this thread devolving into a "perma-stealth is bad" thread?

I would like to see a catch 22 that is not on a defender frame. Is there such an animal?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Not really. Catch 22 is predicated on someone taking damage no matter what they do (so long as they do something,) typically by attacking target A or target B. Target A is usually a defender who has the mob marked, and Target B is basically anything else. If the mob attacks Target A, he gets shafted by B (or by A, if A has gone and picked up Snarling Wolf Stance or something), and if he attacks Target B, Target A punishes him with the defender feature.

Building Catch-22 is normally a party-based mechanic. Building a character with a one-man Catch-22 is usually resource intensive and innefficient. Usually it involves the Guardian theme, the Battle Awareness Fighter MC feat, or Lightning Rush. There are other examples, but those are three very prevelant ones.
Understood. I suppose that makes sense. Thank you for the on-topic and mildly helpful response. Thanks.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

I'm sorry, did you just call Battle Awareness and Guardian "resource intensive and innefficient"?
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Unfriendliness of powers is part of their quality.  Your argument is either disingenuous or stupid.



Permastealth is a party unfriendly ability.



No, it's not, and it particularly isn't "unfriendly" in precisely the same sense as an AOE that hits your allies.  But feel free to play games with semantics rather than actually arguing a coherent point.

A defender can invest too much in defense instead of mark punishment.  But aside from the opportunity cost, there is no downside to higher defenses.



Once it becomes objectively better to ignore attacking an unhittable defender, he just becomes a sub-par striker.



No, and this shows that you either don't understand what you're talking about or haven't been paying attention to the thread (more likely).

Take any defender.  He has a punishment for attacking himself (typically high defenses) and a punishment for attacking allies (retaliation, penalty to attack rolls, whatever).  The enemy is given an option: attack the defender or attack his allies.  An option is always worth the better of its two choices, situationally.  If the defender removes one of the choices (and all else remains equal), the option becomes strictly worse for the enemy.  If you give the defender +100 to all defenses, or immunity to all damage and status effect, or make him permahidden, you effectively remove one of those choices and make him more effective.

Now, of course, you can't do any of those things for free - all else won't remain equal.  It costs mechanical resources to boost your defenses, and that will typically reduce your mark punishment, so the "attack your allies" side of the option becomes better for the enemy just as the "attack the defender" option gets taken away.  You are generally going to want shift mechanical resources around until each option is about equally bad for the enemy.  But note that there are genuinely unhittable defenders (e.g. mellored's) that are still extremely good because they do it while maintaining a strong penalty for attacking allies.

You may have understood this dynamic before; I'd hope so, because it is really really obvious.  It shouldn't be something that actually has to be explained on these forums.  But there are people in this very thread who have gotten the bizarre idea into their heads that even a costless increase to your defenses would be bad.  See Fardiz #28 and Alruane #20.

Permastealth is bad because of what you give up (typically damage), not because of what you get (improved defenses).
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