How to make an Attack for specific body parts (Called Shots?) in 4th

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Running an encounter, one of my players wanted to attack an specific area (say the forearm) of his opponent. He wanted to force him to drop his weapon (say, like a Krav-Maga move).

How to do that?

Also, is there any rule for sundering a weapon/object?

Thanks in Advance.
 
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Running an encounter, one of my players wanted to attack an specific area (say the forearm) of his opponent. He wanted to force him to drop his weapon (say, like a Krav-Maga move).

How to do that?

Also, is there any rule for sundering a weapon/object?

Thanks in Advance.
 



There is not anything specifically in the rules that goes with this.  Generally because it can cause a problem with scaling and people wanting to do "headshot" or "disarm" with every attack. However, if you find it to be something you want to do in a game you can allow it by all means (or ask your DM to allow it).  Look under "things the rules don't cover" and improvise from there.

Personally Disarm, while a great plot and thematic device, can be extremely annoying in a game such as this.  Especially because of how characters tend to be built. 
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There aren't any rules for attacking attended/held objects, but the DMG and Rules Compendium include rules for unattended objects.   In general, they are immune to poison, psychic or necrotic damage, as well as any attack that targets Will defense.  Additional resistences or vulnerabilities are at DM discretion (example, a wooden object may be vulnerable to fire, but resistant to cold). 
  HP and defenses are based on material and size.  Since you have Insider, search the glossary category fo the compendium for "Object" to find at least some of the rules.


Disarm and Sunder rules were effectively removed in 4e. There are a few creatures that allow you to attack a certain body part in certain scenarios (ex: the tentacle of a Roper that has grabbed a party member), but those are special cases.  Anything beyond that is house rules. 
  Remember if disarm gets added in, the creatures the party fights can do it to, and its probably is more beneficial to the monsters, especially since many of them don't actually hold weapons.
The technique was used with success by my players during the final battle and giving them a huge edge against a Pirate Lord on the last campaing i've run in 3.5. I guess they were trying to repeat the feat. But since the rules don't exist anymore in 4e, I had to reject the attempt, and felt like I just didnt want them to perform that "cheap trick" on the new villain. As a Player, I love to have more options available other than fight fight fight, so I guess there should be a way to do the special attack.

Guess a house rule will do as you said. Made this a few minutes ago, think it may work like the grab or bull rush, so... I also added a +2 to the save for the target, guess this may help avoid everyone dropping the weapon every time the attempt is made. I dont want everyone having butterfingers or the field covered in droped weapons. Suggestions?

 
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The problem is that disarms are hugely overpowered, particularly in 4e.  And the major reason for not having disarm rules is not that the players will use it, but that the monsters will.

If you do houserule in a disarm, make it not do damage.  Look at the Grab or Bull Rush actions for analogues, but I'd give a major, major penalty to a disarm attack.  This has to be high risk, high reward in order to function effectively.  If it's low risk, high reward, then your party will just go disarming everyone they see and the narrative breaks down rapidly.

If they complain about the low disarm chance, ask them how easy they think they should be disarmed.  "But I'm capable in combat, and I know how to hold onto my weapon!" they will probably say, at which point you respond, "So are the guys you fight."
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Ok, how about like this? I've added the target size limitations.

 
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The problem is that disarms are hugely overpowered, particularly in 4e.  And the major reason for not having disarm rules is not that the players will use it, but that the monsters will.

If you do houserule in a disarm, make it not do damage.  Look at the Grab or Bull Rush actions for analogues, but I'd give a major, major penalty to a disarm attack.  This has to be high risk, high reward in order to function effectively.  If it's low risk, high reward, then your party will just go disarming everyone they see and the narrative breaks down rapidly.

If they complain about the low disarm chance, ask them how easy they think they should be disarmed.  "But I'm capable in combat, and I know how to hold onto my weapon!" they will probably say, at which point you respond, "So are the guys you fight."

I Like those ideas :D
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He wanted to force him to drop his weapon (say, like a Krav-Maga move).
How to do that?
Also, is there any rule for sundering a weapon/object?

From the forum FAQ, if desired:
"How do you disarm someone? The writers purposefully left out disarming as a basic option (although some powers like 'Exorcism of Steel' allow it). However, when an enemy is defeated you can describe them as disarmed (or crippled, subdued, unconscious, pinned, tied up, etc.) instead of slain (addressed in WotC’s Podcast #29)"


Ok, how about like this? I've added the target size limitations.

 




The problem with this sort of thing is that it is really really easy to break.  A generic party with a fighter and an enchanter could easily make this "Save at a -4 penalty".  The monster math also does not support what happens when you disarm a monster.

And also you are redefining the rules on what it takes to pick up an object.  Making it take a move instead of a minor and provoke OAs?  This seems like something players can break if they use it and players will hate if the monsters use it.

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mmm, I see... Well, any idea of how to do it?

By monster you mean a monster humanoid, say Hobgoblin, Orc, which have specific stats on their attack with weapons and get useless once they got un-armed, but what about against a NPC character type foe? or in a not so rare, PvP case.

When I said Krav-Maga move, it wasnt just a joke XD. The player trying to do this was a Vampire using his Slam Attack on the opponent, who was an Human Assassin. But he wanted to target the forearm to make him drop his main weapon (Short Sword) and left him only with the off-hand (a dagger).

I told him," sorry you can't, is not covered in the rules"... which I really hate to say. I also didn't wanted to improve a rule at the moment. So I just negate the action and he had to do the attack normally. I know that this course of action took the fun of making the combat more interesting for him. I hate when things turn into spam the fight fight fight command button.

In the case of Exorcism of Steel , its a fighter power of higher level. But I need something like bull rush or grab, something anyone could risk to do, but that must be hard to display, so this dont become the meal of every day. 
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TL;DR response - don't do PvP combat or create NPCs for combat using PC creation rules - 4e is not balanced for it.  Disarm doesn't exist in the rules because the combat stats of monsters in 4e is not determined by their equipment, and if monsters could disarm PCs, the PCs would ineffective a lot more often.

Long version:
No NPC involved in combat should be developed using PC rules - the balance doesn't come out right.  Similarly 4e very specifically is not balanced for PvP combat.  What is is balanced for is a team of party members taking down creatures who are built using the rules that monsters use for powers and other abilities.
  The biggest balance issue is that an NPC  (or worse yet an NPC party) would be free to use all of their daily abilities and as many healing surges as possible because they only have the one encounter to deal with, while the party will have spent resources in previous encounters, and may need to conserve for subsequent encounters.  This is why most enemies have no surges or action points, they never have daily powers, only encounter powers or rechargable powers, and why treasure is now given in parcels instead of giant piles of magical gear that no one in the party can actually use but they have to figure out how to haul it back to town to sell.

Also note that the monster rules don't include their equipment into their math.  If you have a group of orcs out of the monster manual, the rules are written so that you could replace their weapon with anything, and the attack roll and damage should be the same. None of their damage is based on [W] or enhancement bonuses of their equipment, or feats. If you start changing a lot of their stats, it throws off the balance of party attack rolls vs monster defenses and vice versa.
  
For comparison, note that just about every high level enemy in 3.0/3.5, who had anything resembling class levels had to be overloaded with magic gear  (+4 weapons/armor, wands, scrolls, wondrous items, etc) appropriate to level just for the math to balance out.  This even went for basic enemies - if you had a group of Orc Barbarians with a chieftain, but your party was 16th level, you might have an 18th level chieftain, and his bodyguards are 8-10 Level 12 Barbarians , with level appropriate equipment like +2 Greataxes or better.
   In 4e, none of the high level monsters have magical equipment assumed in their stat blocks - the numbers are all just adjusted to make them level appropriate and are independent of their actual equipment, so disarming would have no effect.  The level 14 Human Gladiator is an Elite Soldier whose only equipment is a gladius (short sword), light shield and scale armor, all mundane, yet his basic attack is +21 vs AC for 2d8+6 ([W] for a short sword is 1d6), and the gladiator's AC is 30.  Technically speaking, if you take the gladiators weapon away, it doesn't effect his attack at all.

A lot of the changes in 4e were made to limit the effects that can completely take a monster or PC out of combat because its not fun for the player when their character can't do anything. That's why instant death is out (except for the coup de grace), paralysis is out, and stun, unconscious and petrify are all rare effects which often require a failed saving throw to get into.

My advice would be to not try to squeeze in a method for disarm because it will actually make things worse for the party.  There is a single creature in the entire compendium of 5140 creatures with a disarm attack, Jarlaxle Baenre (a unique elite  character from Forgotten Realms), for a good reason.
   If your group pushes to add a houserule for it, then any monster with an intelligence score should abuse the heck out of it - especially minions if you don't make it provoke an oppurtunity attack.

   Whatever you decide to do do with it, you shouldn't change the rules for picking an object back up.


No disarm tends to be a gentleman's agreement.  We all know it really royally messes up the game and I (as DM) won't use it as long as you (player) won't use it.

There is also the role of refluffing. What you could do instead of going all goofy with it is use it as a fluff justification for weakened.  Monster powers that weaken are ones that "disarm" the players.  They dont actually get disarmed, but thats how you can describe it.  Same goes with PC powers that weaken, or give crippling minuses to attack rolls.  The answer here is to come up with something in the rules and then just refluff to taste. 
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No disarm tends to be a gentleman's agreement.  We all know it really royally messes up the game and I (as DM) won't use it as long as you (player) won't use it.

There is also the role of refluffing. What you could do instead of going all goofy with it is use it as a fluff justification for weakened.  Monster powers that weaken are ones that "disarm" the players.  They dont actually get disarmed, but thats how you can describe it.  Same goes with PC powers that weaken, or give crippling minuses to attack rolls.  The answer here is to come up with something in the rules and then just refluff to taste. 

However, note that a new at-will action that allows any creature to apply the Weakened condition to any other creature, even if its only until the end of next turn, would be extremely overpowered.  Only two at-will attacks can apply weakened:
1) Darkspiral Aura Warlock pact boon, which only applies Weakened to the attack is interrupting and only if the aura attack does 12 or more damage.
2) Unnerving Disruption level 27 Ardent power weakens until end of your next turn, but only if you Augment 6.
Your player is free to describe his attack as an attempt to disarm the foe, just as he is free to describe his attack as 'I try to chop his head off'.  In both cases, unless the target is reduced by zero HP by the attack, thus removing him from the battle, he simply didn't succeed.
No disarm tends to be a gentleman's agreement.  We all know it really royally messes up the game and I (as DM) won't use it as long as you (player) won't use it.

There is also the role of refluffing. What you could do instead of going all goofy with it is use it as a fluff justification for weakened.  Monster powers that weaken are ones that "disarm" the players.  They dont actually get disarmed, but thats how you can describe it.  Same goes with PC powers that weaken, or give crippling minuses to attack rolls.  The answer here is to come up with something in the rules and then just refluff to taste. 

However, note that a new at-will action that allows any creature to apply the Weakened condition to any other creature, even if its only until the end of next turn, would be extremely overpowered.  Only two at-will attacks can apply weakened:
1) Darkspiral Aura Warlock pact boon, which only applies Weakened to the attack is interrupting and only if the aura attack does 12 or more damage.
2) Unnerving Disruption level 27 Ardent power weakens until end of your next turn, but only if you Augment 6.




I did not mean to imply that you should make a new attack that weakens them.  Just reflavor what already weakens to explaining it as a disarm.
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If I had a nickel for everytime my buddy said on his turn...

"I stick my dagger in his eye!"

Ahh...good times.   
Hahaha, good times indeed,  I know about that :P, every player always want to hit someone in the nuts, cut his head or stick the dagger on the eye of every beholder they face. I used to play like that on 2nd edition and torture my DM with those actions.

Guess there is no solution for now, at least not a balanced one.  I find it quite dissapointing, but I feel relieved at the same time. 

Aiming to the future, anyone knows if there's going to be a rule for Disarm, Sunder on D&D Next? Just Curious...

Thanks to everyone for the replies, If by chance anyone find a balanced rule for it, please let me know :D 

 
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Honestly I doubt it.  Disarm is essentially the non-magical version of Save or Die.
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Not for monsters thought, considering that most of their powers doesn't require a weapon by RAW....

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Honestly I doubt it.  Disarm is essentially the non-magical version of Save or Die.



More like Save or Suck, but yeah. It trivializes things in one roll.
Salem, what you have there sounds reasonable, except the part about further penalizing someone for grabbing his weapon back. Give it a shot, see how it works. Be sure to use it on your players if they use it on the monsters more than once. If it doesn't get out of hand then you either succeeded, or your players decided not to abuse it. If combat gets to be a pain because of rampant disarming, end it.

I haven't seen disarm in play, but it doesn't seem like it would be too devastating in normal situations. Between disarming and retrieval, neither of you are doing damage. You'd have to have some tactical advantage, like being able to kick said weapon off a nearby cliff, to really profit off the move. Also, monsters can carry multiple weapons. Or how about: Standard: unarmed melee disarm. Minor: pick up recently-disarmed weapon. Also, can't many monsters who carry weapons, can still inflict their usual damage, regardless of the specific weapon in their hands?
Also, can't many monsters who carry weapons, can still inflict their usual damage, regardless of the specific weapon in their hands?



Yes, because monster damage is not strictly based on [W], and a lot of monsters don't use weapons at all.  That's why a rule that allows Disarm as a general attack option is biased against the PCs.   It more than just a the damage change - if your +5 weapon gets knocked away, you now also have an attack bonus that is 5 lower and you're unlikely to even hit.  The only monster that has a disarming attack (a uniquie epic tier Forgotten Realms character) also knocks the weapon 6 squares away in a direction of its choosing.
   Adding a Disarm rule isn't impossible, but like Sunder and the previous edition's grapple rules, it tended to be more harmful to the PCs than to the monsters, and tended to slow combat down, so they scrapped it in 4e.

  The original post implied there was a PvP scenario where this came up, and PvP is another thing that is intentionally left out in 4e as the emphasis is really on the party working together as a team to overcome challenges.


Actually, there are a couple of other disarming enemies, but they're rare.

Disarms are a PITA, because, if nothing else, of the on-the-fly calculation alterations.
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Adding a Disarm rule isn't impossible, but like Sunder and the previous edition's grapple rules, it tended to be more harmful to the PCs than to the monsters, and tended to slow combat down, so they scrapped it in 4e. 

The original post implied there was a PvP scenario where this came up, and PvP is another thing that is intentionally left out in 4e as the emphasis is really on the party working together as a team to overcome challenges.




A party working together as a team to overcome challenges is the ideal scenario, but PvP, even if rare is quite a posibility. In 3.5 I've dealt with PvP a couple of times,  sometimes players just disagreed and chose to solve it with a duel, whatever the reason, is something that could happen. Bet many GM's have dealt with this in the past too. 

Now, what about a campaign where most of the threats are human foes?, maybe military men, mercenaries, assassins, pirates, or mad peasants with pitchforks. a campaign where finding a goblin or another humanoid monster like gnolls, orcs, bugbears or kobolds is quite rare.

I also believe the Disarm rule isn't impossible, the difficult part is making it balanced because it needs to work for both, PC's and Humanoid opponents. I'm not thinking of monsters to apply the rule, I think a gnoll still can bite the neck of his opponents if its disarmed; but what about a Human NPC like those in the MM? I believe a skillfull Pirate (Just to give an example, say like Errol Flint/Captain Blood) could try to disarm a PC and capture him for ransom in place of killing it. 

Now that you quoted; this attack also must be fast, so the attack doesn't slow the pacing of the combat.

My intention is to make or find a rule mostly to add the option, just like bull rush or grab. making the battle more dynamic and not only recurring to spam melee or ranged basic attacks.








 


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Fighting human monsters is fine. Fighting creatures built according to PC rules is stupid (in 4e). Experience with it in other editions need not apply, it is universally stupid in 4e. There is no circumstance where it is a good idea.
Fighting human monsters is fine. Fighting creatures built according to PC rules is stupid (in 4e). Experience with it in other editions need not apply, it is universally stupid in 4e. There is no circumstance where it is a good idea.



Repeated for emphasis.
+1 
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A party working together as a team to overcome challenges is the ideal scenario, but PvP, even if rare is quite a posibility. In 3.5 I've dealt with PvP a couple of times,  sometimes players just disagreed and chose to solve it with a duel, whatever the reason, is something that could happen. Bet many GM's have dealt with this in the past too.


  As Alcestis said, (and was said by several of us earlier), 4e is specifically designed not to support PvP.  There's a reason monsters, including humanoid "monsters" are not created and scaled in 4e the same way as PCs. 


Now, what about a campaign where most of the threats are human foes?, maybe military men, mercenaries, assassins, pirates, or mad peasants with pitchforks. a campaign where finding a goblin or another humanoid monster like gnolls, orcs, bugbears or kobolds is quite rare.


  Doesn't matter in 4e because any enemies in combat, including any type of humans or player races don't get created like PCs do.   There have been a few published encounters where enemies start without their gear and do reduced damage until they pick it up, but those have been few and far between. 

I also believe the Disarm rule isn't impossible, the difficult part is making it balanced because it needs to work for both, PC's and Humanoid opponents. I'm not thinking of monsters to apply the rule, I think a gnoll still can bite the neck of his opponents if its disarmed; but what about a Human NPC like those in the MM? I believe a skillfull Pirate (Just to give an example, say like Errol Flint/Captain Blood) could try to disarm a PC and capture him for ransom in place of killing it. 


  Except a disarm attack isn't required to do that.  The rules specifically state that when an enemy is defeated in combat, you can consider them to be disarmed, unconscious or dead.  The same can be applied to the PCs - if an enemy force brings all the PCs below 0, you, as DM, can consider them disarmed and captured instead of dead.  You may have to do some fudging with what failing 3 death saving throws means in that scenario, but it can be done.




You may have to do some fudging with what failing 3 death saving throws means in that scenario, but it can be done.



"The monster takes you alive, by choice, exactly the way you get to choose when you kill a monster whether or not to kill it or take it alive.  No need to roll death saves."
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Wanna make few things clear:

1- Its clear that 4e don't support PvP.. I'm ok with that... just said it could happen, no party is out of disagreements, some are fixed in a friendly manner, others need to prove their point by sword-point.

2- I want to find, or create a variant rule for "Disarm".

3- Who said something about creating NPC's with PC rules? The Opponent was a Npc/Monster taken from the Adventure tool (see below)


This was the scenario: Player Vampire (HoS) vs Human Assassin (AT)...    

4rd round of combat:

The Assassin ( posted below) try to strike the defender (a Dwarf Paladin), and miss, so no secondary attack; its the turn of the Vampire.

Vampire Player: Ok, I wanna try to hit the forearm of the Assassin, and force him to drop his weapon (Short Sword)

Me: Sorry you can't, because is not covered on the rules.

Vampire Player: Mmm, ok ...I hit him with the Vampire Slam ... 

...and the fight goes on...



So... in brief... in 4e there is no way to disarm this guy in the middle of the combat Unless I beat the cr4p out of him... thats sad :/

Thanks for the replies. Cool




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You may have to do some fudging with what failing 3 death saving throws means in that scenario, but it can be done.



"The monster takes you alive, by choice, exactly the way you get to choose when you kill a monster whether or not to kill it or take it alive.  No need to roll death saves."

I guess I was thinking about the case where one character goes down early in the fight while the rest of the party fights on, but I suppose even at that point the DM could just say you don't have to make any death saves.  Although that also seems like a cheap way for a DM to avoid triggering people's epic destiny "once per day when you die" powers.
So... in brief... in 4e there is no way to disarm this guy in the middle of the combat Unless I beat the cr4p out of him... thats sad :/



No competent fighter can be disarmed without also defeating him.  And, luckily, there's a method by which you determine when someone is defeated.  No, there's no shortcut to that, any more than there's a way to say "Well, round 1, I use Cleave ON HIS THROAT.  I hit?  Great, that chopped off his head, even though he's got 90 HP left he's still dead".  You don't get to shortcut to killing someone, you don't get to shortcut to defeating them some other way.
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You may have to do some fudging with what failing 3 death saving throws means in that scenario, but it can be done.



"The monster takes you alive, by choice, exactly the way you get to choose when you kill a monster whether or not to kill it or take it alive.  No need to roll death saves."

I guess I was thinking about the case where one character goes down early in the fight while the rest of the party fights on, but I suppose even at that point the DM could just say you don't have to make any death saves. 



That's what I was thinking.  Alternately, "make death saves normally, but failing three times puts you unconscious until the end of a short rest, not dead."

Although that also seems like a cheap way for a DM to avoid triggering people's epic destiny "once per day when you die" powers.



Potentially.  If that's a concern, you could also let people trigger those when they fail their third out-cold-for-the-fight death save.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.