Saving Throws

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Hello,

I have a few questions regarding saving throws.

Scenario 1:
Creature A attacks and hits Creature C. Creature C takes ongoing 10 damage and dazed (save ends both).
Creature B attacks and hits Creature C. Creature C is dazed (save ends).
Creature C ends its turn and makes saving throws.

Should Creature C roll a saving throw against Creature A's effects and then Creature B's effect? Or can Creature C roll a saving throw against Creature B's effect and then Creature A's effects. Which saving throw must Creature C roll first?

Scenario 2:
Creature A gains regeneration 5 until end of encounter.
Creature B attacks and hits Creature A. Creature A takes ongoing 5 damage (save ends).
Creature A starts turn with 5 HP.

Does the regeneration occur first and cancels out the damage of the ongoing damage? Or does the ongoing damage happen first and knocks Creature A unconscious which negates its regeneration?

Thanks in advance.
For effects that happen at the same time, the effected creature choose the order in which they happen. The creature chooses the order of saving throws, and the regeneration effect can happen before the ongoing damage, if you so choose.
Hello,

I have a few questions regarding saving throws.

Scenario 1:
Creature A attacks and hits Creature C. Creature C takes ongoing 10 damage and dazed (save ends both).
Creature B attacks and hits Creature C. Creature C is dazed (save ends).
Creature C ends its turn and makes saving throws.

Should Creature C roll a saving throw against Creature A's effects and then Creature B's effect? Or can Creature C roll a saving throw against Creature B's effect and then Creature A's effects. Which saving throw must Creature C roll first?

Creature C can choose to make his saving throws in whichever order he wants.  However, note that you can't be Dazed (save ends) twice, so Creature B's effect doesn't happen since C is already Dazed (save ends).  In other words, all C has to do is roll a save vs. A's effect.



Red Siegfried, I am confused. I thought the dazed effects do stack because they are two different effects. One is a "ongoing 10 damage and dazed (save ends both)" and another is a "dazed (save ends)". I was under the impression that the different save ends conditions seperate the two dazed effects.

For example using Scenario 1, if Creature C succeeds on a saving throw against Creature B's dazed effects, what about a saving throw against Creature A's ongoing 10 damage (and dazed) effects? Does Creature C automatically save against the ongoing damage even though he did not roll to end Creature A's effect? What happened to the "save ends both"?

Thanks for the advice.
A creature can choose the order at which things happen at the end of its turn.

RC 199 Any Order: The creature can choose the order at which things happen at the end of its turn.

 

Ongoing 10 damage and dazed (save ends both) and 
dazed (save ends) are not identical effect even if they contain the same condition and would each require a save.

RC227 Saving Throw: Identical effects never require multiple saving throws. A creature does make separate saving throws against effects that aren’t identical, even if they contain the same condition. For instance, “dazed (save ends)” and “dazed and immobilized (save ends both)” are not identical effects, so separate saving throws are made against each of them.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Removed my post so I didn't confuse anyone.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

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"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Thank you for your answers and advice. Apparently, the answers to my inquiry was in the Players Handbook 3 page 223 which states:

You never make multiple saving throws against identical effects. You do, however, make seperate saving throws against effects that aren't identical, even if they contain the same condition. For example, dazed (save ends) and dazed and immobilized (save ends both) are not identical effects, so you must make seperate saving throws agaist them...



I have another inquiry regarding saving throws. I decided to continue this thread, because I don't want to create unnecessary clutter in the forums and it is related to the same topic of this thread anyways.

I am playing a control wizard with orb of imposition. I have many control effect powers (such as Sleep daily power) that require the target to make saving throws to end the effects of my powers. To ensure that I get the most out of my control capabilities, I want to debuff the target's saving throws as much as possible through the use of powers, feats and items. My Orb of Imposition arcane implement mastery gives the target a penalty equal to my Wisdom modifier.

For example, my control wizard is wielding an Orb of Fickle Fate +6 and a Phrenic Crown (epic tier).

Orb of Fickle Fate +6
Power (Daily): Minor Action. A target within 10 squares of you takes a -6 penalty to saving throws and you or an ally within 10 squares of you gains a +6 power bonus to saving throws (target's save ends both).



Phrenic Crown (epic tier)
Property: Whenever you attack a creature's Will defense, the target of that attack takes a -3 penalty to the first saving throw it makes against an effect imposed by that attack.



Please note that the Orb of Fickle Fate +6 power description does not specify that the penalty to the target's saving throw is an item bonus/penalty. Meanwhile, the +6 saving throw to an ally is a "power bonus" (which I understand cannot be stacked with different bonuses from other powers). The same observation can be made for the Phrenic Crown property description when it says "-3 penalty" instead of "-3 item penalty".

1. Do penalties to saving throws from item properties and powers stack?

2. Can I stack my wizard's Orb of Imposition arcane implement mastery on top of the penalty to saving throws from the Orb of Fickle Fate and Phrenic Crown? With a Wisdom modifier of +7, combining these three sources of saving throw penalties would mean that the target has a -16 penalty to saving throws (7+6+3=16). Correct?

The Players Handbook 1 on page 275 states:

Penalties: Unlike bonuses, penalties don't have types. Penalties add together, unless they're from the same power.



3. Is there a limit to the penalties I can stack against a creature for making its saving throws? Does it stop at -10 penalty? After a -10 penalty to saving throws, the target is guaranteed to fail a saving throw (without bonuses). What happens then?

The Players Handbook (pg 275 & 279) and Players Handbook 3 (pg 222-223) cover these areas and provide some answers, but I would like clarification to make sure I understand these rules properly.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

The penalties stack as long as they come from differently named game elements.  So for example, if you had an at will power that caused a target to have -2 penalty to all saving throws until end of next turn, you couldn't use an action point to use the at will power twice and give it -4. Or you couldn't have two of the same magic ring that each give the targets of your attacks a penalty to saving throws. 
 The Orb of Fickle Fate power, Phrenic Crown and your implement mastery penalties can all be stacked against a single effect for a single turn, but only if its a single effect you cast that targeted Will.
   Note that the Orb of Fickle Fate penalty applies to all saving throws, while the Phrenic Crown is only against the first saving throw against an effect from a spell you cast that targeted Will, and Orb of Imposition is also only against a single effect from a spell you cast.  So you can't use the Crown and Orb of Imposition to make it harder to remove the effects of Orb of Fickle Fate, but the Crown and Orb of Imposition can be applied to give -9 against the first save a spell you just used and the Orb of Fickle Fate would also apply to that same saving throw for another -6.

  There's no limit to the maximum penalty other than the restriction on same named game elements not stacking.  Even with a -10, the target would still save if it rolls a 20, and Elite and Solo monsters all have bonuses to saving throws (usually +2 and +5 respectively).  There are also some creatures that automatically save against certain effects, in which case the penalties you apply have no effect.

while the Phrenic Crown is only against the first saving throw

Several game elements were modified in the past to be like this ... only penalizing the first saving throw attempt, in order to prevent perma-lock situations.  But yeah, you can stack on a LOT of saving throw penalties if you make that a goal.

What's even more fun, to me, is setting up a situation where you can't FAIL a saving throw.  But that's a different thread.  

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”