Ray of Frost vs Lance of Faith

Correct me if im wrong, but Ray of Frostis 1d10 and LoF is 2d6. Why give clerics a more powerful damage cantrip?

Both being 1d10 should be fine
I think it's supposed to be balanced out by the fact that Ray of Frost also slows the target. IMHO the problem with LoF is actually not that it's too damaging for it's level and spammability, but that it literally puts clerics in no-brain situations for 80% of their turns. RoF debuff can be pretty useful in some situations if used correctly (and with correct encounter design and party tactics), and wizard have to think how to use it, but cleric just has to spam LoF after LoF on whoever party target in the moment.
wasnt aware of the slow. and im at work so i cant read up on it. in any case i still dont believe that the priest should have 2d6 damage on a cantrip at 1st level. they should have a more party oriented role. we have enough damage dealers as it is...
You dont have to take LoF... if your player has taken it its either a pregen or he has chosen he wants to deal damage.
Lance of Faith is broken. Clerics have moderate combat ability, so there is no reason that they should also deal more damage with their cantrips than a Wizard, who cannot fight well without magic. I'd cut it down to 1d6, useful for long range attacks or situations requiring magic damage, but ultimately inferior to a weapon in most situations. For a Cleric that wants to specialize in offensive magic, the Arcanist domain offers access to Wizard cantrips.

Clerics shouldn't be punished for choosing to focus on weapons over magic in combat.
I have a player who likes making broken characters and he was playing a cleric and HE even called it broken.

I suspect they are testing something else and just left LOF as a placeholder for now.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

 

Philosopher Gamer

IMHO the problem with LoF is actually not that it's too damaging for it's level and spammability, but that it literally puts clerics in no-brain situations for 80% of their turns...


Our cleric did find herself having to make some hard choices a few times; use LoF to deal a fairly random amount of damage and maybe kill the target or use her CMW to bring someone back to conciousness and then hope her mace hit. Overall though yes it was just sit in the back and spam lasers until healing was needed. 

Ray of Frost seems to be the only wizard damaging cantrip worth taking, but then at least the wizard has all his spell slots to cast other damage spells with so it's not quite a no brainer for him.

I think it's supposed to be balanced out by the fact that Ray of Frost also slows the target...


I think that was the intention as well but an average of 7 damage from LoF doesn't equal 5.5 + Slow for my 2c. I think LoF would be better off as D8 or 2D4 then maybe give Lightbringer clerics extra damage (whether it's another die or a wisdom modifier to damage) since they seem to be more of the 4E Evoker types. 


Just noticed another possible redeeming factor: Ray of Frost has a 100 ft range while Lance of Faith is only 50 ft. But really, how often are you in combat at more than 50 feet?
Seing as most creatures can hustle 60 thats the sort of range where the -10 move matters. And I agree that I rarely see combat start at that range. Completely anectdotal from games ive played its only really been siege type situations I can remember starting out that far away... probably because we play on a grid map and that far distance is in pizzabox land
Seing as most creatures can hustle 60 thats the sort of range where the -10 move matters. And I agree that I rarely see combat start at that range. Completely anectdotal from games ive played its only really been siege type situations I can remember starting out that far away... probably because we play on a grid map and that far distance is in pizzabox land

Yeah I can see at extreme ranges that ray of frost may have something of an advantage (Cast at 100 ft, back away so they're 55+ feet away, repeat). Occasionally the PCs might encounter such open ranges out on the road, but in places like dungeons which are more frequent it rarely matters.

Perhaps the LoF should be cut all the way down to a D8 (or even D6?) unless you're the Lightbringer faith? That way a mace or sling where you're adding in your ability modifier for damage makes a bit of a difference.
Seing as most creatures can hustle 60 thats the sort of range where the -10 move matters. And I agree that I rarely see combat start at that range. Completely anectdotal from games ive played its only really been siege type situations I can remember starting out that far away... probably because we play on a grid map and that far distance is in pizzabox land

Yeah I can see at extreme ranges that ray of frost may have something of an advantage (Cast at 100 ft, back away so they're 55+ feet away, repeat). Occasionally the PCs might encounter such open ranges out on the road, but in places like dungeons which are more frequent it rarely matters.

Perhaps the LoF should be cut all the way down to a D8 (or even D6?) unless you're the Lightbringer faith? That way a mace or sling where you're adding in your ability modifier for damage makes a bit of a difference.



Maybe let it keep its damage but as a 1st level spell, and Lightbringer Clerics can take it as a Cantrip?
Maybe let it keep its damage but as a 1st level spell, and Lightbringer Clerics can take it as a Cantrip?



I think that would resolve it nicely. I would still consider giving the Lightbringer more uses of it or being more effective with it since they're sacrificing their armour proficiency to get it. 

As for balance: The only other damaing divine spell at level 1 is Inflict Light Wounds, which does 3D8 necrotic, requires melee touch, and is worse than useless when fighting undead. LoF does less but has range, vampires and wraiths are vulnerable to it (wraiths taking normal damage instead of half). It should maybe have one more die to it or a large die size (not both) and it would be good. It would defin


Maybe let it keep its damage but as a 1st level spell, and Lightbringer Clerics can take it as a Cantrip?


I believe that was precisely the situation until November or December version of playtest, no?

Perhaps have a recharge value on it of 4+ or something.

It seems the problem here is that wizards can't write a middle ground - either the power can only be done once or twice a day, or it can be done every single attack.

Excluded middle.

Clerics using it once or twice a combat seems a nice way to be powerful without just blasting lasers out every single attack.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

 

Philosopher Gamer

Perhaps have a recharge value on it of 4+ or something.


Hey, actually recharge powers are perfect for the whole clerical mechanics. This simulates the divine magic, power of which is subject to god's mood at the precise moment. Maybe clerics should roll recharge check each round, which would allow them to regenerate some spell slots. This need some though to minimize unnecessary dice rolls and number crunching, but this may be great idea
Thanks, hirou! As I understood 4e recharges, you just rolled once - if you rolled a 6, for example, everything you have recharges (ie, roll once and every recharge you roll higher than or equal to will recharge!)! If 5E used that, it's dramatic and very little dice rolling involved.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

 

Philosopher Gamer

Even if (lvl 1)LoF is to powerful at 2d6 why is it that so many people feel that it should be below  Ray's 1d10? I've also seen plenty of posts from DMs that allowed their PC wizards to use the Ray to create bridges over water or icy shackles on NPCs who have surrendered to the party. Traditional editions aside I don't see a reason why a Cleric who channels his god's power should be that much less effective than someone who is casting an arcane spell. Both classes are expected to have had long periods of training in their respected fields prior to jumping into adventuring.

Cleric spell damage, outside of a few exceptions, is tied to single target only while the wizard has plenty of AoE options. The idea of making it a lvl 1 spell is a bit rediculous considering its single target and a lvl 1 wizard has multiple ways of shutting down a multi NPC encounter. Also while it may be a more traditional train of thought the biggest reason to have a cleric in your party was to help everyone else survive. Having access to lance, as it is currently written, allows the cleric to not have to worry about sacrificing group survivabilty for personal damage by using up their spell slots casting damage spells.

Lance of Faith allows a cleric to feel powerful in the begining and atleast somewhat relevant when they don't have to spend their turn casting a heal spell. It also lets them keep their higher slots around for when they do need to toss out heals or buffs thus letting the party progress further between full rests. Its really a win win for everybody in the group.
Even if (lvl 1)LoF is to powerful at 2d6 why is it that so many people feel that it should be below  Ray's 1d10? I've also seen plenty of posts from DMs that allowed their PC wizards to use the Ray to create bridges over water or icy shackles on NPCs who have surrendered to the party. Traditional editions aside I don't see a reason why a Cleric who channels his god's power should be that much less effective than someone who is casting an arcane spell. Both classes are expected to have had long periods of training in their respected fields prior to jumping into adventuring.



That's all true, but the Wizard is nothing but a spellcaster. The Cleric is supposed to be able to holds its own with a weapon, it has Channel Divinity, it usually has armor too. The Wizard has spells. Wizard's spells should be more effective, because that is its entire life.
Hi,

This isn't really a sessions report so I'll be moving it along to
Playtest Packet Discussion
Thanks!

Monica
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