Proportional Healing Brainstorming

There's been much discussion on the merits of proportional healing, and suffice to say I'm very much in favor.  But rather than present a binary choice of 4E or the highway, let's think of some ways it could be applied to D&D Next.


  • The number of surges per day of 4E need not be tracked (unless we think that's important for some reason).  The amount of healing per day can be limited by healing resources, which can vary from game to game per taste just like it is now.

  • 1/4 of HP total (the 4E surge value) is a very useful number to reference, and would be appropriate for magical healing.

  • Another easy proportion of HP to reference would be 1/10 of total HP.  You could even say to round down, so that we need only drop the first digit to see how many HP are restored.

  • 1/10th of HP might be a useful number for natural healing, use of the Heal skill, or self-motivation in combat. 


Might this be useful?  Any other thoughts?
Healing should still be dependent upon hit dice.

The Cure Wounds spells should heal a stated amount of the spell target's hit dice.

Lengths of time spent healing should heal a stated amount of hit dice.

That is proportional healing. 

Danny

Str+Con/10 rounded down per full day of rest. With a minimum of 1
Thanks for the contributions folks, but neither of those is proportional with respect to maximum HP.  

The D&D Next Hit Dice mechanic does make an attempt to make healing more effective for beefier classes versus non beefy classes by giving bigger dice, which is something.  But that's still not proportional to max HP.  A high level character still needs to have many healing spells (or much stronger ones) cast to heal 50% of HP versus a low level character.  Each use of hit dice does not get more powerful with skill, you just get more of them with skill.  So somehow you become better able to rest for long periods of time, or better able to have clerics cast spells at you many times.  But a single casting of the spell becomes increasingly relatively ineffective as you gain in skill in mitigating damage.

To review, HP is defined as follows:

"Your hit points represent a combination of several factors. They include your physical durability and overall health, your speed and agility to avoid harm, and your overall level of energy. They also account for luck, divine favor, and other mystic phenomena. In short, hit points are an abstraction."


 Thus a high level character takes so much damage not only because of increased phsical durability (which actually means the wounds aren't as deep or serious) but because much of the damage was avoided through skill, luck, divine favor, and mystic stuff.
There's been much discussion on the merits of proportional healing, and suffice to say I'm very much in favor.  But rather than present a binary choice of 4E or the highway, let's think of some ways it could be applied to D&D Next.


  • The number of surges per day of 4E need not be tracked (unless we think that's important for some reason).  The amount of healing per day can be limited by healing resources, which can vary from game to game per taste just like it is now.

  • 1/4 of HP total (the 4E surge value) is a very useful number to reference, and would be appropriate for magical healing.

  • Another easy proportion of HP to reference would be 1/10 of total HP.  You could even say to round down, so that we need only drop the first digit to see how many HP are restored.

  • 1/10th of HP might be a useful number for natural healing, use of the Heal skill, or self-motivation in combat. 


Might this be useful?  Any other thoughts?



I like the idea of the 1/10th rounded down value, but maybe make it a mixed system.

cure light wounds now heald 1d8+4 in the playtest.
maybe change that to 1d8 + 1/10th of the targets maximum hitpoints, this would also help to keep the cure light wounds spell relevant at higer levels.

cure serous wounds is now 3d8+8 in the playtest
would become 3d8+ 2/10th of the targets maximum  HP

 
I'm with the Devs on this one. Proportional healing just doesn't make sense to me. You don't take proportional damage, and whatever HP damage represents, healing should logically be the opposite, so why should you get proportional healing?

And I'm a big fan of the new healing spell rules with always adding 4 or 8 or something instead of taking time to figure out how much you add to it. I feel like this would bog down the game.
I would separate combat and out of combat "healing".

I would only allow damage prevention in combat with abilities like :
- damage resistance
- regeneration until half-HPs
- limited number (by level) of instantaneous "shielding"abilities.

Shielding ability (vague) format :
• Being able to speak, to warn and direct an ally (based on tactical awareness or divination) or to utter a power word (to block or deflect).
• Usable once per round maximum as a reaction, on any turn before an attack hits the target.
• The target cannot be damaged until his next turn.
• Any attacker on the following turns is aware that his planned attack will be prevented and is free to turn to another target.

I would refresh shielding abilities with short rests, reducing the number by one for each short rest taken, to reflect fatigue and loss of attention.

I would only allow true healing out of combat. Magical healing would be restricted to daily rituals, so the characters have time to feel the pain of an adventuring life.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

I'm with the Devs on this one. Proportional healing just doesn't make sense to me. You don't take proportional damage, and whatever HP damage represents, healing should logically be the opposite, so why should you get proportional healing?

And I'm a big fan of the new healing spell rules with always adding 4 or 8 or something instead of taking time to figure out how much you add to it. I feel like this would bog down the game.

Two characters at zero HPs, from different classes but with with the same ability scores, have taken exactly the same level of beating.
The fighter doesn't have more liters of blood to support longer bleeding, or harder flesh to block the penetration of a blade.

Damages are proportional, as fighters are considered to be more trained to mitigate damage than a wizard with the same constitution score.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

There's been much discussion on the merits of proportional healing, and suffice to say I'm very much in favor.  But rather than present a binary choice of 4E or the highway, let's think of some ways it could be applied to D&D Next.


  • The number of surges per day of 4E need not be tracked (unless we think that's important for some reason).  The amount of healing per day can be limited by healing resources, which can vary from game to game per taste just like it is now.

  • 1/4 of HP total (the 4E surge value) is a very useful number to reference, and would be appropriate for magical healing.

  • Another easy proportion of HP to reference would be 1/10 of total HP.  You could even say to round down, so that we need only drop the first digit to see how many HP are restored.

  • 1/10th of HP might be a useful number for natural healing, use of the Heal skill, or self-motivation in combat. 


Might this be useful?  Any other thoughts?


Keep in mind the lower htpoint totals of Next's starting levels.
Wizards might have 4-6 hitpoints while clerics and rogues have 8-10. So using 1/4 the wizard would heal 1hp and the rogue/cleric heals 2. And at 1/10 they both heal 0. 
Plus a character might only have a single heal. So healing 1/4 won't get them back in the fight.

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

I'm with the Devs on this one. Proportional healing just doesn't make sense to me. You don't take proportional damage, and whatever HP damage represents, healing should logically be the opposite, so why should you get proportional healing?

And I'm a big fan of the new healing spell rules with always adding 4 or 8 or something instead of taking time to figure out how much you add to it. I feel like this would bog down the game.



but i guess you woulden't mind a side bar for people who like percentile healing 
that sais instead of +4 add 1/10th and instead of +8 add 2/10th 
The trouble with Healing as a percentage of max HP is that is leads to odd situations.
For example, say that a healing spell returns 10% of your hp (rounding all fractions down, as is usual in D&D.
A character with 49 hit points will regain 4 hp with each spell, thus taking 13 spells to get from 0 hp to full (although 12 will get him to 48, which is close enough).  A character with only 1 more hit point (50) will need only 10 spells!

4E has this too, but less extreme (because surges are 1/4 instead of 1/10).  A character with 23 HP has a surge value of 5.  He needs to spend 5 surges to return to full health from 0.  A character with 24 HP (only 1 more) has a surge value of 6.  He needs to spend only 4 surges to get back to full.  Given that surges are an extremely limited resource, a difference of 1 is big.

I think a simpler way to handle proportional healing is to simply use the existing Hit Dice mechanic.  This is something I have seen presented a number of times (including by me).  Cure Light Wounds would heal 1 hit die, Cure Moderate would heal 2, etc. 

Now, while this is proportional across classes, it isn't proportional across levels, which I think is what you want.  You would like Cure Light Wounds to heal the same amount of HP proportional to your max at every level.  Unfortunately, given the way Next is setup right now, this is potentially problematic.  A high level cleric would be able to heal a very large amount.  Now, I said "potentially" because this might not be a problem to people.  Personally, I think it would be a problem.

I prefer my idea because it keeps things a bit more balanced.  Fighters regain more HP from a spell, but you start needing higher and higher spell slots as you gain levels.  Cure Light Wounds should be fine for a low level party, but by the time you are level 10 it shouldn't be as useful.  In the same way, Burning Hands is a great attack spell for a low level party, but by level 10 it isn't going to be so great.
I'm with the Devs on this one. Proportional healing just doesn't make sense to me. You don't take proportional damage, and whatever HP damage represents, healing should logically be the opposite, so why should you get proportional healing?



So isn't the opposite of not taking proportional damage gaining proportional healing? That's what opposite means, right?   

Healing should still be dependent upon hit dice.

The Cure Wounds spells should heal a stated amount of the spell target's hit dice.

Lengths of time spent healing should heal a stated amount of hit dice.

That is proportional healing. 



I totally agree, although I think that the bonuses to those hit dice rolls should be dependant on the healer's relevant stat rather than the target's Con mod.

I also think that having an option to limit healing by a certain number of Hit Dice per level (magical or mundane) would be a good optional rule.  I like that surges effectively limited both methods of healing, (I just think that players got too many of them).  I would say 2 hit dice per level, but it would depend on the level of grit you were looking for.  Either way, I think this limit, combined with proportional healing would add a nice extra layer to the tactics of healing.

For those suggesting a fractional method.  I think that is just unnecessary math.  Your Hit Die never changes, so all you have to do is remember that one die-type, and roll multiples for better heals rather than having to recalculate at each level.  It also keeps Mr Random in the equation, and the Devs seem to want him involved in everything (which I actually agree with).

I'm with the Devs on this one. Proportional healing just doesn't make sense to me. You don't take proportional damage, and whatever HP damage represents, healing should logically be the opposite, so why should you get proportional healing?

And I'm a big fan of the new healing spell rules with always adding 4 or 8 or something instead of taking time to figure out how much you add to it. I feel like this would bog down the game.



Well, healing during a rest is, in fact, proportional already.  It isn't a big leap to say that magical healing simply accelerates the target's natural healing.  The wounds close, blood clots, bones mend, all in a naturalistic but rapid manner.  In fact, from a mechanical perspective, having natural and magical healing use the same system is a good choice all around.

I woud start by granting classes equal weight when recovering their hit points, so that is why I recommend using class hit dice for healing spells versus a static rate of 1d8 for cleric spells. It makes sense since the same hit dice was used to determine the characters hit points.

Once that is in place you can add on a percentage value if you want it to be more reliable. But the percentages or hit dice remain relative to the character. This also helps standardize other type of healing, like a monks self healing, or a wizard healing a warforged, or using hit dice for healing kits.

I am in favor in anything that makes hit poit recovery faster, including making healing spells max effect outside of combat, in addition to proportional healing.
Damage is propotional.

If you take 5 damage at level 1, that a seious wound.
If you take 5 damage at level 20, it's just a scratch.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Damage is propotional.

If you take 5 damage at level 1, that a seious wound.
If you take 5 damage at level 20, it's just a scratch.

A level 20 monster doesn't do 5 damage it does 25 damage.
Damage is not proportional, it just scales.

What is the draw to "proportional healing" exactly?

If you gain 1d8 hp every level, what is wrong with healing an extra 1d8 per heal? Why does it have to be percentage based?

What problem is it fixing exactly? 
Damage is propotional. If you take 5 damage at level 1, that a seious wound. If you take 5 damage at level 20, it's just a scratch.

A level 20 monster doesn't do 5 damage it does 25 damage.
Damage is not proportional, it just scales.

What is the draw to "proportional healing" exactly?

If you gain 1d8 hp every level, what is wrong with healing an extra 1d8 per heal? Why does it have to be percentage based?

What problem is it fixing exactly? 



Primarily, it allows for easier application of fixed limits on per-day healing via the current hit dice rules.  
Secondly, it combines the current "natural healing" system with magical healing into one coherent system.
Thirdly, those two points combine to reduce the need for a traditional healer role within each party.  It you have a limited number of hit dice per day, and those hit dice can be spent either on natural healing (via short-rests, healer's kits) or on magical healing, you can control the balance issues that arise based on party make-up.  A party without a healer may not have in-combat access to healing, but they can heal afterwards.  Its more dangerous and less reactive, but still accessible.  A party with two healers doesn't change the HP-as-a-resource dynamic so much that it becomes difficult to manage.  Curative items like wands and potions are also curtailed in power, (these were a serious problem in both previous editions).  And finally, those limitations create a natural devaluation of healing class-features, which helps to justify a greater power level for characters with access to magical healing (rather using the "healing is boring so you get it for free" approach of 4e and pathfinder).  
Damage is propotional. If you take 5 damage at level 1, that a seious wound. If you take 5 damage at level 20, it's just a scratch.

A level 20 monster doesn't do 5 damage it does 25 damage.
Damage is not proportional, it just scales.

What is the draw to "proportional healing" exactly?

If you gain 1d8 hp every level, what is wrong with healing an extra 1d8 per heal? Why does it have to be percentage based?

What problem is it fixing exactly? 



Primarily, it allows for easier application of fixed limits on per-day healing via the current hit dice rules.  
Secondly, it combines the current "natural healing" system with magical healing into one coherent system.
Thirdly, those two points combine to reduce the need for a traditional healer role within each party.  It you have a limited number of hit dice per day, and those hit dice can be spent either on natural healing (via short-rests, healer's kits) or on magical healing, you can control the balance issues that arise based on party make-up.  A party without a healer may not have in-combat access to healing, but they can heal afterwards.  Its more dangerous and less reactive, but still accessible.  A party with two healers doesn't change the HP-as-a-resource dynamic so much that it becomes difficult to manage.  Curative items like wands and potions are also curtailed in power, (these were a serious problem in both previous editions).  And finally, those limitations create a natural devaluation of healing class-features, which helps to justify a greater power level for characters with access to magical healing (rather using the "healing is boring so you get it for free" approach of 4e and pathfinder).  

What problem does healing potions and wands cause exactly?  Isn't that a table decision?

Hit dice make sense, but hit dice are not proportional healing.  Hit dice are hit dice.

People seem to have this craving for percentage(i.e. proportional) healing which I'm asking about. 
Damage is propotional. If you take 5 damage at level 1, that a seious wound. If you take 5 damage at level 20, it's just a scratch.

A level 20 monster doesn't do 5 damage it does 25 damage.
Damage is not proportional, it just scales.

Right.  HP scales, damage scales, but healing does not scale.

Level 1: 10 HP PC and 5 damage monster.  (50%).  Heals 1 per hour (10%).
Level 20:  50 HP PC and 25 damage monster. (50%).  Heals 1 per hour (2%).

Hit dice make sense, but hit dice are not proportional healing.  Hit dice are hit dice.

Hit dice are (mostly) proprotional.

You get ~80% of your HP in reserve (exact numbers vairy a good bit).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


but i guess you woulden't mind a side bar for people who like percentile healing 
that sais instead of +4 add 1/10th and instead of +8 add 2/10th 



It could be a module, not something that could be mixed with the default system at the same table. The results are too different. Linear healing is more effective at lower levels while percentile healing is more effective at higher levels.


Damage is propotional. If you take 5 damage at level 1, that a seious wound. If you take 5 damage at level 20, it's just a scratch.



That means it is not proportional. Proportional damage (in the way you mean proportional healing) would be a monster that hits for 25% of your health. You take 3 damage from it at level 1 or 20 damage at level 10 from the same attack. That would be the opposite of proportional healing. Of course we don't do it that way, because how many hit points you have should matter.

And there are plenty of percentage games out there, but this is a game of dice rolls.
My thought, given the necessity of appealing to nostalgia at every turn, is that HD could be used as a proprotional healing mechanic.  They bring in some of the randomness of classic D&D.  Randomness, IMHO, adds to excitement in combat and other challenges, but complicates bookkeeping and causes frustration outside those situations.  

Thus, I think HD should be rolled in combat or durring other contests or challenges (or whatever exploration and interaction scenes end up being called), but simply maximized durring downtime hp recovery.  

HD should be reasonably proportional, since they are how the PCs hps are determined.

Rather than healing rolling nHD, where n is an arbitrary whole number, though, they'd have to roll all HD, or some fraction of all HD.  So CLW might let your roll 1/4 of your Hit Dice, which'd mean rolling & dividing by 4, which'd be a pain, or maybe it'd just let you roll your HD, and there's a number of times per day you can do so, rather than consuming HD?    

(Not surprisingly, just as 4e already tackled this thorny problem with healing surges, 13A has already done something like the above, with a rolled 'recovery.' )



 

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!


but i guess you woulden't mind a side bar for people who like percentile healing 
that sais instead of +4 add 1/10th and instead of +8 add 2/10th 



It could be a module, not something that could be mixed with the default system at the same table. The results are too different. Linear healing is more effective at lower levels while percentile healing is more effective at higher levels.


Damage is propotional. If you take 5 damage at level 1, that a seious wound. If you take 5 damage at level 20, it's just a scratch.



That means it is not proportional. Proportional damage (in the way you mean proportional healing) would be a monster that hits for 25% of your health. You take 3 damage from it at level 1 or 20 damage at level 10 from the same attack. That would be the opposite of proportional healing. Of course we don't do it that way, because how many hit points you have should matter.

And there are plenty of percentage games out there, but this is a game of dice rolls.

The reason you guys aren't understanding each other is that "damage" means two different things, one of which is proportional, one of which is not.

"damage" means the number of hitpoints it takes off your current HP.  That is not proportional.

"Damage" also means the the degree of physical wounding caused by a given amount of lost HP.  This is proportional, in the sense that 5 "damage" of the first kind causes an amount of "damage" of the second kind that is dependent on the proportion of 5 to your max HP.  Or it could be causing no "damage" of the second kind at all, depending on how you play, but even then there's a strong temptation to say a character with 100 HP used up less of its skill/luck/endurance pool dodging that hit than the character with 10 HP, so there's a vague sort of proportionality there.  So when a character with 6 HP takes 5 damage, it's a pretty big deal: at most tables they're going to describe that as at least a fleshwound, for all of them it's emptied your luck/endurance account and the next check's gonna bounce (along with your severed head).  When a 100HP character takes 5 damage, at no table is that more than a papercut and at many tables it's a negligible drop in your bucket of reserves.  So why should CLW cure the 6 HP guy's flesh wound, but only cure the 100 HP guy's papercut/tiny drop in abstract reserves?  Surely it should cure an equivalent amount of physical (type 2) damage?  In other words, magical healing is, flavorwise, tied to the type 2 damage, not the type 1 damage.  So why is it, mechanics wise, tied to the type 1 damage?  That's dissociative.  

Of course, even if you make it proportional, you've got problems based on the extremely abstract nature of HP.  Supposing we go with the "top half of your HP is no physical damage, bottom half is scrapes and bruises, negatives start getting deadly" business in the packet.  Well then, if we do 3 damage (type 1) to the 6 HP character, we've used up all his reserves and he's about to start taking physical damage.  If we do 3 damage to the 100 HP guy, who happens just now to be at 6 HP because someone's been beating on him for a while now, he's taking physical damage.  A bit of a heal is going to only be able to energize our poor 1st level wizard a little, but it's going to heal a fair bit of physical damage on the 100 HP guy.  If healing is proportional, he's going to heal quite a lot of physical damage.  Surely energizing that 6 HP character is easier (unless he's a luck-powered defender, in which case what the heck is cure light wounds doing for him)?  If healing is not proportional, then if you do 3 damage to the 6 HP character who is down to 3 HP, a little heal will cure quite a lot of physical damage, but almost imperceptibly energizes the 100 HP character at 97HP.  The problem - both whether healing should or should not be proportionate and why the two sides of this argument don't seem to understand each other - is that HP are hopelessly abstract, meaningless, and terrible at their job.  As long as HP are trying to serve two masters - serve as an arbitrary measure of how close a character is to defeat and measure anything resembling physical damage at any point on the scale - healing will also necessarily be abstract, meaningless, and totally nonsensical the moment you actually sit down and think about it.  Whether it's proportional or not.  
Hit points, whether losing them or gaining them, are abstract, meaningless, and totally nonsensical. They exist so it can be a game instead of a simulation, so it can be playable, so it can be fun, same as Armor Class and spell slots. I just don't worry myself thinking about how little sense it makes. And personally I don't get into all these complicated notions that your hit points represent your skill or luck or anything like that, I just accept that stronger characters can take more wounds than weaker characters. It's not realistic; it's not supposed to be.

But no matter what hit points mean, here's what I just don't get about the proportional healing argument. You all acknowledge that the same 5 HP wound at level 1 and level 20 are completely different experiences. But you then propose that the same Cure Light Wounds spell at level 1 and level 20 should be the same experience. That is what I'm not understanding.
 But you then propose that the same Cure Light Wounds spell at level 1 and level 20 should be the same experience. That is what I'm not understanding.


No I expect a cure light wounds to raise my wizard from dying to fully function...  then become virtually a waste of game space at high level - because apparently its harder to heal skilled characters and similar nonsense. It was nonsense in 1e and it hasnt changed. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

But no matter what hit points mean, here's what I just don't get about the proportional healing argument. You all acknowledge that the same 5 HP wound at level 1 and level 20 are completely different experiences. But you then propose that the same Cure Light Wounds spell at level 1 and level 20 should be the same experience. That is what I'm not understanding.

The deal with proportional healing hinges on where all those extra hps from levelling come from.  If a high level character is still basically human(oid), flesh and blood, then they're not just absorbing more physical punishment, and the severity of a wound must be based on the prortion of the damage inflicted relative to the total hps.  Which is also just intuitive:  Getting hit for 1 out of 10 hps is about the same as getting hit for 10 out of 100 hps.  

For an all-physical-hp example, a 10 hp human hit for 1 point of damage might have a scratch.  A 100 hp giant taking 10 hps might have the exact same scratch, in proportion to his much larger size, in the exact same spot.

But, when the 10 hp and 100 hp character are both just normal sized, flesh-and-blood people, the 1 hp and 10 hp wound aren't just the same 'in proportion,' they're the exact same wound.  The 10hp one was just a lot harder to inflict.

So, rest and time for a person to heal up from a scratch should be the same for both.  In clasic D&D, it's a day for the 10 hp guy and a week for the 100 hp guy.  Same goes for using magic to remove the booboo.



 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

Right.  HP scales, damage scales, but healing does not scale.

Level 1: 10 HP PC and 5 damage monster.  (50%).  Heals 1 per hour (10%).
Level 20:  50 HP PC and 25 damage monster. (50%).  Heals 1 per hour (2%).

To my knowledge, no one is proposing that every character heal only 1 hp per hour.

The flat healing I remember being proposed in the article was 1/level/hour.  So the 1st level character regains 1 per hour, the 20th level character regains 20 per hour.

As for the issue of the proportional scratches, this is exactly why HP is abstract.  Any time you take an abstract system designed to for a game and try to apply real world logic and reason you run the risk of creating apparent illogical situations.

Cure Light Wounds currently heals 1d8+4 HP.  In other words, getting healed by CLW lets you survive another hit from a monster that deals 1d8+4 damage.  See?  Everything stay abstract.  Don't focus on the fact that the spell is called "Cure Light Wounds".  That is just a name made to have a bit more flavor than "Cure Low Amount of Hit Points".  CLW can heal a 1st level Fighter to full HP even if he was down to 0...that doesn't sound like a "Light Wound" to me.

Don't confuse the issue by trying to decide what different amounts of damage would look like for different creatures (each with different max HP).  CLW doesn't say, "The spell heals a scratch no larger than..."  It says, "You regain 1d8+4 HP."

I keep saying this: The issue of proportional healing is a purely subjective one.  There is nothing wrong with that.  There is nothing wrong with prefering one form of healing over another.  That is why there will be different healing options presented to us.  But don't try to "prove" that proportional healing is somehow "better" or that non-proportional healing is somehow "illogical" and "wrong".  These terms have no meaning here.
Healing is proportional now..



What you mean to say is that you want healing to be proportional to the character's hit points as opposed to proportional to the damage taken.


That said - I do agree that proportional healing is a good idea.  The simple fix for healing spells is to simply change them from using d8s to using d[hit dice].  


Healing via resting is a separate matter.  I am less convinced that this needs to be proportional to hit points, as long as it is highly dependant upon Constitution.  But I also don't object to it being proportional to the hit points. 


That said- I also wouldn't mind seeing some attacks (and perhaps crits) do damage proporational to hit points.  If it works for healing, why shouldn't it work for some attacks?  Maybe crits should do an extra die based on the character's hit points rather than the weapon being used?  


Carl         
But no matter what hit points mean, here's what I just don't get about the proportional healing argument. You all acknowledge that the same 5 HP wound at level 1 and level 20 are completely different experiences. But you then propose that the same Cure Light Wounds spell at level 1 and level 20 should be the same experience. That is what I'm not understanding.

The deal with proportional healing hinges on where all those extra hps from levelling come from.  If a high level character is still basically human(oid), flesh and blood, then they're not just absorbing more physical punishment, and the severity of a wound must be based on the prortion of the damage inflicted relative to the total hps.  Which is also just intuitive:  Getting hit for 1 out of 10 hps is about the same as getting hit for 10 out of 100 hps.  

For an all-physical-hp example, a 10 hp human hit for 1 point of damage might have a scratch.  A 100 hp giant taking 10 hps might have the exact same scratch, in proportion to his much larger size, in the exact same spot.

But, when the 10 hp and 100 hp character are both just normal sized, flesh-and-blood people, the 1 hp and 10 hp wound aren't just the same 'in proportion,' they're the exact same wound.  The 10hp one was just a lot harder to inflict.

So, rest and time for a person to heal up from a scratch should be the same for both.  In clasic D&D, it's a day for the 10 hp guy and a week for the 100 hp guy.  Same goes for using magic to remove the booboo.






Let's look at it as a comparison of spells instead. A Wizard can hit something with two Magic Missiles as a 1st level spell. That damage can be significant for a low level enemy, but if the Wizard wants to deal an equal "wound" to a high level enemy with Magic Missile, they need to cast it on a higher spell slot to conjure more missiles. It doesn't just automatically take 20% of the enemy's health or something. For a Cleric, you have a range of healing spells available of varying effectiveness, but to effectively cure a high level character it takes a high level healing spell, just like effectively damaging a high level enemy takes a high level evocation spell. What's the problem with it?

If you can accomplish the same thing at level 1 or level 10 with Cure Light Wounds for a 1st level spell slot, why would you ever cast Cure Serious Wounds or Heal or anything better? I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm actively saying it doesn't. But since this is a game, some things do not make sense. The very notion of leveling up and gaining more hit points does not make sense, so why should healing alone try to make sense?
But no matter what hit points mean, here's what I just don't get about the proportional healing argument. You all acknowledge that the same 5 HP wound at level 1 and level 20 are completely different experiences. But you then propose that the same Cure Light Wounds spell at level 1 and level 20 should be the same experience. That is what I'm not understanding.

The deal with proportional healing hinges on where all those extra hps from levelling come from.  If a high level character is still basically human(oid), flesh and blood, then they're not just absorbing more physical punishment, and the severity of a wound must be based on the prortion of the damage inflicted relative to the total hps.  Which is also just intuitive:  Getting hit for 1 out of 10 hps is about the same as getting hit for 10 out of 100 hps.  

For an all-physical-hp example, a 10 hp human hit for 1 point of damage might have a scratch.  A 100 hp giant taking 10 hps might have the exact same scratch, in proportion to his much larger size, in the exact same spot.

But, when the 10 hp and 100 hp character are both just normal sized, flesh-and-blood people, the 1 hp and 10 hp wound aren't just the same 'in proportion,' they're the exact same wound.  The 10hp one was just a lot harder to inflict.

So, rest and time for a person to heal up from a scratch should be the same for both.  In clasic D&D, it's a day for the 10 hp guy and a week for the 100 hp guy.  Same goes for using magic to remove the booboo.






Let's look at it as a comparison of spells instead. A Wizard can hit something with two Magic Missiles as a 1st level spell. That damage can be significant for a low level enemy, but if the Wizard wants to deal an equal "wound" to a high level enemy with Magic Missile, they need to cast it on a higher spell slot to conjure more missiles. It doesn't just automatically take 20% of the enemy's health or something. For a Cleric, you have a range of healing spells available of varying effectiveness, but to effectively cure a high level character it takes a high level healing spell, just like effectively damaging a high level enemy takes a high level evocation spell. What's the problem with it?

If you can accomplish the same thing at level 1 or level 10 with Cure Light Wounds for a 1st level spell slot, why would you ever cast Cure Serious Wounds or Heal or anything better? I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm actively saying it doesn't. But since this is a game, some things do not make sense. The very notion of leveling up and gaining more hit points does not make sense, so why should healing alone try to make sense?


\


the thing i dont understand is that as you leveled you got more missles and you still had to use only 1 level 1 slot and a fireball which you could get as a level 3 spell scaled in damage but still was a level 3 spell how is this new system better if i have to use an 8th level slot to hit a bunch of goblins with magic missles where before i could with a 1st level slot

Don't confuse the issue by trying to decide what different amounts of damage would look like for different creatures (each with different max HP).

You'd think being wounded nigh unto death for a flesh-and-blood person would be wounded nigh unto death regardless of how 'experienced' he may be.  Of course, 'experience' in D&D is hardly same thing as RL 'experience.' 

 CLW doesn't say, "The spell heals a scratch no larger than..."  It says, "You regain 1d8+4 HP."

Well, the L is for "Light" and I don't think it's refering to laser damage.  It's always been a head-scratcher from the beginning.  I was at 1 hp, but it was a "Light Wound" and now I'm back to my max hps of 8?  I'm only down 12 of 120 hps, but I need a Cure Serious Wounds?  

It's another example of how you shouldn't obsess over names and flavor text. ;)

I keep saying this: The issue of proportional healing is a purely subjective one.

Choosing to read stuff into abstract hps, sure.  There's another side to it, though, which is purely mechanical.   With proportional healing, 4e was able to push healing resources to everyone in the form of surges, and leaders got by with a couple of encounter surge-triggers.  There was no /need/ for a leader with more and more powerful spells every level just to keep up with healing duties. That opened up 'design space' for casters to be less overpowered.  A relatively fixed number of proportional healing surges as the primary daily healing resouce also kept the workable 'length' of the day more consistent.  There are a lot of gamist benefits, as well as some arguable, and more subjective, simulationist ones.

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!



the thing i dont understand is that as you leveled you got more missles and you still had to use only 1 level 1 slot and a fireball which you could get as a level 3 spell scaled in damage but still was a level 3 spell how is this new system better if i have to use an 8th level slot to hit a bunch of goblins with magic missles where before i could with a 1st level slot




Why are you fighting Goblins as a 15th level character? Pay some hireling to do that grunt work, you've got Mind Flayers to eat for dinner.

But anyway, since the old system (3.5 anyway) maxed out at five missiles for a first level slot, while this one lets you cast it at 9th level for 18 missiles, and they also do more damage than the missiles did before, I would say the spell has improved despite the requirement for higher level slots. But the question is how it compares to other 9th level spells in this game, not how it compares to previous versions of Magic Missile.


the thing i dont understand is that as you leveled you got more missles and you still had to use only 1 level 1 slot and a fireball which you could get as a level 3 spell scaled in damage but still was a level 3 spell how is this new system better if i have to use an 8th level slot to hit a bunch of goblins with magic missles where before i could with a 1st level slot




Why are you fighting Goblins as a 15th level character? Pay some hireling to do that grunt work, you've got Mind Flayers to eat for dinner.

But anyway, since the old system (3.5 anyway) maxed out at five missiles for a first level slot, while this one lets you cast it at 9th level for 18 missiles, and they also do more damage than the missiles did before, I would say the spell has improved despite the requirement for higher level slots. But the question is how it compares to other 9th level spells in this game, not how it compares to previous versions of Magic Missile.




why are goblin encounters at high level hard to believe? if im a level 15 fighter and surrounded by 20 goblins i will lose the fight just by overbearing if they all grab at me and take me down. guess mosters are just xp sticks walking around looking for a fighter to break and collect the loot. now onto the spells if i need to take out alot of enemies id rather use cloudkill or delayed blast fireball than magic missle or fireball
Don't confuse the issue by trying to decide what different amounts of damage would look like for different creatures (each with different max HP).

You'd think being wounded nigh unto death for a flesh-and-blood person would be wounded nigh unto death regardless of how 'experienced' he may be.  Of course, 'experience' in D&D is hardly same thing as RL 'experience.'


Well most folk assume that....  
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

now onto the spells if i need to take out alot of enemies id rather use cloudkill or delayed blast fireball than magic missle or fireball



Then what does it matter if Magic Missile scales or not? Cast Cloudkill. Cloudkill scales the same way, additional 1d8 per additional spell level above 5th.
Sign In to post comments