The Declaration of King Minos

30 posts / 0 new
Last post

The Declaration of King Minos





King Minos under the advisement of Bigby has declared words=objects confined to scroll area.
In effort to clarify scroll spells,
  the King seeks to represent actions and objects in short understandable terms.
Henceforth, the language of magic would be altered.

":" = "to have" the colon is used to separate mana and other component costs for actions activated by them

Deck = Library
Object = Permanent
Chip = Counter object
Action Spell = Sorcery or Instant
Mana Count = Converted Mana Cost
Enters Play = Enters the Battlefield
This = the card referring to itself
Put ~ from deck into zone = Search Deck for ~, reveal it, and put it into zone then shuffle.

Chill = enters play tap
Lag = this does not untap during it's controllers next untap step
Frenzy = must attack if able dtolle
Opposed = Blocked or Blocked by
Creature attacks Unopposed = Creature is attacking and is not blocked after blockers are declared.

Numbers shall be written as numbers
your creatures = creatures you control (this is not to be confused with cards you "own"
"to end of" = until end of
"at the start of" = at the beginning of

King Monos has also considered  "to turn's end" and "at upkeep's start"
In effort to clarify scroll spells, 

  the King seeks to represent actions and objects in short understandable terms.



Enters Play = Enters the Battlefield


This is exactly the opposite of your stated objective, very far from "clarifying" the game. You're going back to a ambiguous term that changed for a very good reason. Above anything else you're trying to do, forget this one.




Deck = Library 


No. They are different things.


Deck: The collection of cards a player starts the game with; it becomes that player's library. See rule 100, "General," and rule 103, "Starting the Game."


Library: 1. A zone. A player's library is where that player draws cards from. 2. All the cards in a player's library. See rule 401, "Library."



Object = Permanent


No. They are very different things.


Object: An ability on the stack, a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, or a permanent. See rule 109, "Objects."


Permanent: A card or token on the battlefield. See rule 110, "Permanents."


Correcting what I wrote before, this is worse than your return to "enters play". Abandon this change.


Chip = Counter object


Counters aren't objects (much less permanents, if that's what you're trying to say).


Otherwise, you're just changing a neutral term for another. As "counter" is used (as a verb) for something else, this is... aceptable.


Action Spell = Sorcery or Instant


Now you're introducing an unnecessary term, something the player need to learn in addition to the terms 'instant' and 'sorcery'. You're not simplifying anything here.


Mana Toll = Converted Mana Cost


Fine.


Frenzy = must attack if able



Frenzy is already a keyword, from Future Sight, for a different effect: Frenzy Sliver


Creature attacks Unopposed = Creature is attacking and is not blocked after blockers are declared.


We already have a short wording for that, "Creature attacks and isn't blocked". Example: Coral Fighters

[<o>]
Action spell is presented as the antithesis of permanent, the pairing helps define the distinction
Actions spells happen once and do not stay in play.
Object spells stay in play

Battlefield  is more confusing than the "in play" because creatures in combat are within a subset of that
creature in combat = an attacking of blocking creature


attacks unopposed is shorter and is nested with
opposing creatures = creatures blocking or blocked by this

"mana toll" has been changed to "mana count" although a character longer. I think counting the mana is more intuitive.

>Frenzy is already a keyword, from Future Sight, for a different effect: Frenzy Sliver
opps perhaps "raving" ?

Deck is 3 letters less than library and there is no confusion over what a deck is.

Action spell is presented as the antithesis of permanent, the pairing helps define the distinction
Actions spells happen once and do not stay in play.
Object spells stay in play

We already have "permanent spell" and "sorcery or instant spell". Pretty straight forward, wouldn't you agree?

Battlefield  is more confusing than the "in play" because creatures in combat are within a subset of that
creature in combat = an attacking of blocking creature

"Battlefield" may sound a little confusing, but it's no less confusing then using "in play" which sound like the action of playing a card. "battlefield" also has flavor.


attacks unopposed is shorter and is nested with
opposing creatures = creatures blocking or blocked by this

But it requires players to know yet another term for the same thing (blocking). I don't think having a shorter term would be better here.

Deck is 3 letters less than library and there is no confusion over what a deck is.

But a deck is not a library. They may seem the same but they're not. For example in a game of Commander, your deck consists your commander but your starting library doesn't.

Also, "library" is flavorful while "deck" is not. This is one of the reasons why many terms have changed with the arrival of M10. I don't think it's worth to losing this flavor for 3 letters.

Being simple and clear are good goals. Just shortening text is not.


It's even worse when you sacrifice simplicity and clarity just to get a few letter less. Players already need to learn the words "instant", "sorcery" and "spell" anyway, no need to add "action spell" to the list.


Players already need to learn "attacks", "blocks" (is blocked, blocking it, being blocked by are just variations of the same verb). You want to add a new term "opposed" without removing anything, just to reduce a few letters. Also, "opposed creature" it's too similar to "opponent player", many players may think it applies to any creature controlled by an opponent.



Those suggestions would lead to a game with more 'special' words to learn, and to cards with less real text but more reminder text. It's not a path I'd like to see the game go.

[<o>]
shorten text allows more order and modifications within the text box

the words i pressent are alternatives to phrases

lag is one of my favorites

a lot of these keywords can show up on common / uncommon cards as spells

Chill enchantment
Objects enter play tapped

Lag instant
Target Object does not untap on its next untap
Cantrip [Draw a card at your next upkeep's start]
opps

chill is already a card


Trample enchant creature
Enchanted creature has trample.
[A creature with trample may assign some od its 
combat damage to defending player or planeswalker
if all creatures blocking it are assigned lethal damage.
('Normally, a creature is assigned lethal damage
if its marked damage plus the damage assigned to it
is greater or equal to its toughness.)
]
Cantrip [Draw a card at your next upkeep's start]

1234567890123456789012345678901234567890
shorten text allows more order and modifications within the text box 

the words i pressent are alternatives to phrases 

lag is one of my favorites

a lot of these keywords can show up on common / uncommon cards as spells

Chill enchantment
Objects enter play tapped

Lag instant
Target Object does not untap on its next untap
Cantrip [Draw a card at your next upkeep's start]



You keep missing the point. as will_dice has said:
Being simple and clear are good goals. Just shortening text is not.
 


Having a shoter text, while having advantages like allowing more room for text, can also have its shortcomings. As seen in your suggestions the shortcomings are:

  1. forcing additional terms for the player to memorize, which may even cause confusion.

  2. reducing the flavor from the game, making it sound more technical

  3. increases ambiguity

Additionally, there's isn't that much of a need for shorter text in most of the terms you're suggesting to replace.

Trample enchant creature
Enchanted creature has trample.
[A creature with trample may assign some od its  
combat damage to defending player or planeswalker 
if all creatures blocking it are assigned lethal damage.
('Normally, a creature is assigned lethal damage 
if its marked damage plus the damage assigned to it 
is greater or equal to its toughness.)
]
Cantrip [Draw a card at your next upkeep's start] 

1234567890123456789012345678901234567890



As for your suggested reminder text for Trample, it's too long and complex. Also, explaining "lethal damage" seems unecessary. It's such a basic part of the game it's almost a perquisite. It shows up at the earliest battle, or even earluer with burn spells.

If we assume players don't know about it, and that it has to be explained on the cards, then we'd need to put it on every creature and every burn spell. Not to mention, you're introducing the term "marked damage", on the same grounds we can't assume players know that it  disappears during the cleanup step. But explaining that introduces yet another term "the cleanup step"....

The point is, you have to draw the line somewhere. Some terms would have to be taught outside the cards' text. It's a question of  what should be considered basic knowledge and what should not.

The original reminder text does a good job of taking the middle ground. It assumes that even beginning players are required to know about assigning damage in combat and about lethal damage, (but not necessarily that it's called "lethal damage"). It focuses narrowly on what trample does.

With that said, I don't mean that there's no room to consider tweaking trample's reminder text. For example, some might actually agree with you that using "lethal damage" would be better here than saying "enough damage to destroy it".
There's no need for middle ground  if the reminder text can fit on the card.
New key abilities are added every set.
Magic is always requiring players to learn new terms.

514.1. First, if the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size(normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce his or her hand size to that number. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.

514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.


514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:


514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass, another cleanup step begins.




wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...



Clean Up instant
All triggers abilities that occur at end of turn
  are put on the stack
After the stack resolves;
 All Mana pools are emptied then
 Active player disacards to their maxium hand size
 which is normally 7.
Then remove all damage marked on all permanets.
There's no need for middle ground  if the reminder text can fit on the card.
New key abilities are added every set.

Magic is always requiring players to learn new terms.



Most keywords show up only for a block then go away. It's not the same thing as introducing new terms for the whole game, things that would be used every set, every block. It's not the same thing.


Also, most new keywords at least introduce something new to the game. You're just inventing new terms for things that already have perfectly good terms.




I really don't understand how you want to both introduce new terms for things that already exist just to get fewer letters on the text, and then get more reminder text. The text+reminder ends up being longer than the original text. You're wasting space, not reducing it, and the end result is, IMO, just ugly.


Clean Up instant
All triggers abilities that occur at end of turn
  are put on the stack
After the stack resolves;
 Active player disacards to their maxium hand size
 which is normally 7.
Then remove all damage marked on all permanets.



Time Stop's reminder text is better written, more clear and in a more elegant way.

[<o>]
is there a reason for the snear ?

Time Stop
End the turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack, including this card.
The player whose turn it is discards down to his or her maximum hand size.
Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end.)



Clean Up Crew creature cleric
Sacrifice this:
 All "end of turn" trigger abilities are put on the stack.
 After the stack resolves;
   "This turn" and "until/to end of turn" effects end.
   All Mana pools are emptied then
   Active player discards to their maximum hand size
   (maximum hand size is normally 7.)
   and remove all damage marked on all permanents.
2/2

1234567890123456789012345678901234567890
There's no need for middle ground  if the reminder text can fit on the card.
New key abilities are added every set.
Magic is always requiring players to learn new terms.



But we don't want to to fill the whole text-box either and alienate the players.  And we want to reduce the feeling of technicality the game has for beginners.

Also there's a need to understand your motivation to add the "lethal damage" rule to trample. Your assumption is probably that beginners don't know what lethal damage is. But the thing is if we're talking about a beginner with so little knowledge of the game and its rules, then he probably doesn't know what marked damage is, what the cleanup step is, what blockers order is, and other parts that are required to truly understand  combat damage.

Additionaly if we assume such low knowledge then adding lethal damage on trample won't be enough. As I stated before you'd have to put it on every freaking creature card, burn spell, and any other card capable of dealing damage.

If you really assume that the players reading the cards don't know that much, you can't solve that easily by adding slivers of rules on the cards. If they're already reading walls of text on cards, you might as well take the rules without the a cards, bind them together and call it a rulebook.


is there a reason for the snear ?


What's a "snear"? 

What's a "snear"? 


An expression of scorn.
just recently clarified the rules for trampling myself

yes, many cards won't have rule text on them

my goal is arm te player
so they won't need those rules
on more complex cards
What's a "snear"? 


An expression of scorn.


I think what they were going for was the fact that "sneer" was spelled wrong.

Rules Advisor

I didn't know at the time that it was meant to be "sneer" and couldn't understand the question. But I admit that the likelihood of it being a misspelled word, making the sentence unclear has been disturbing me. However, I'm not sure I'm one to talk about proper English and clarity.  

I assume by context he was asking about the rejection of his Clean Up  card over Time Stop.

Lets leave this meta-discussion at that, unless Matt wishes to clarify something about it himself.
no one has told me what's unclear about clean up crew

ending ones turn is genernally not an option for countrting (exiling) spells on the stack
Well, for one thing it doesn't end the turn. It just does all of the things that happen at the end of the turn randomly in the middle of the turn and then allows the current turn to proceed. Also, the part where ending the turn exiles all objects from the stack is necessary because otherwise they'd all start resolving during the next turn's upkeep (or possibly during the clean-up step).

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman


514. Cleanup Step


514.1. First, if the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce his or her hand size to that number. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.


514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.


514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:


514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass, another cleanup step begins.




wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/...

Active player discards to maximum hand size (normally 7)
then remove all damage marked on all permanents
then turn dependent effects end.


I believe damage should bee removed before before turn effect end to avoid questions of toughness loss vrs damage marked.

are these rules correct ?
Yes, those rules are correct. And if you notice, 514.2 says that you remove all damage at the same time as "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. There's no need to remove damage first, since there's never a point where the damage is marked on the creature but the effects have ended.

Wizards.Com Boards Net Rep

DCI Level 2 Judge

Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

yes, but why hurt the player's head figuring that out ?
yes, but why hurt the player's head figuring that out ?


When your turn is over, all damage marked on creatures is removed.  Where's the headache?

Rules Advisor

not a big deal , i guess

Sudden Stillness Instant
Bury [Destroy creature. It can't regenerate]
All Creatures in play.
    ~"that was nothing" -Mizz

Mana Burn enchantment
Whenever a player's mana pool empties;
 that player losses 1 life for each mana unspent.
frayed thread nightmare creature nightmare horror horse
flying
This creature's power and toughness is X/X
  where X equals your domain.
[your domain is the number of basic land types
you have in play.]
Sacrifice a creature:
 destroy all creatures with power equal to
 the sacrifeced creatures power.
X/X

frayed thread nightmare creature nightmare horror horse
flying
This creature's power and toughness is X/X
  where X equals your domain.
[your domain is the number of basic land types
you have in play.]

Sacrifice a creature:
 destroy all creatures with power equal to
 the sacrifeced creatures power.
X/X




Please post your card ideas in YMTC forum.
I have

here. I have distilled the keyword domain which only indicates a number

Moving to YMtC (because we can't have card ideas where WotC might see them) and locking (because now it is off-topic).

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert