The real solution to martial healing

The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...Smile



As we all know, a skilled field medic only needs 6 seconds to remove an arrow, stop a bleeding wound or tend a broken limb and he can do all of that while the patient is engaged in melee with another combattant!

Nope, refluffing ain't going to work.
I haven't seen anything like temporary hit points in D&D Next. That's probably too keep the rules simple.

But IMHO, granting temporary hit point could represent the inspiring warlord in the thick of the battle, allowing you to sustain one more hit to hold the line, or something like that. You don't gain any hp. If you were inconscious - because you're dying for instance - he can't bring you back on your feet like a cleric could. But at 1 hp, he could give you this little temp hp boost which could help you do whatever you need in combat.
Because 'old school' healing has always been treated as the actual healing of wounds, there is just no easy way to fix this. Martial Healing and completely abstract Hit Points is a by-product of 4th Edition hence the addition of Healing Surges and the Warlord Healing.

To put it blunt, they will have to keep martial healing out of the core but should definitely add something akin to 4th edition as a module for people who want that sort of style.

Its one or the other really, trying to find a medium on this particular subject will just cause further headaches.
I haven't seen anything like temporary hit points in D&D Next. That's probably too keep the rules simple.

But IMHO, granting temporary hit point could represent the inspiring warlord in the thick of the battle, allowing you to sustain one more hit to hold the line, or something like that. You don't gain any hp. If you were inconscious - because you're dying for instance - he can't bring you back on your feet like a cleric could. But at 1 hp, he could give you this little temp hp boost which could help you do whatever you need in combat.



I kind of prefer the ability to go into negative hit points because that's what the inspiring word does. It lets you continue fighting beyond what is normally possible. You still get beaten up a lot more, you just manage to continue fighting.

So that way, you have the same in-combat effect as in-combat healing but you need more healing after combat. And it doesn't contradict any definition of hit point.
I think it's a matter of redefining what happens when a warlord uses inspiring word.

Instead of "heals x damage" it should "restore x HP."

Since there isn't any kind of frequent wounds or limb loss, just referring to HP recovery as opposed to healing should be sufficient.

If there are wounds or limb loss, you may still recover HP, but also still have lost the limb. The HP you recovered simply reflects an ability to keep on your feet in the circumstances.
I haven't seen anything like temporary hit points in D&D Next. That's probably too keep the rules simple.





What about the spell Aid?


I'd prefer something that, while it can keeps you fighting, takes it's toll after the battle.  So your not really healed. 

guides
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Crits: what their really worth
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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...Smile



As we all know, a skilled field medic only needs 6 seconds to remove an arrow, stop a bleeding wound or tend a broken limb and he can do all of that while the patient is engaged in melee with another combatant!

Nope, refluffing ain't going to work.



Well if you were arguing that the Warlord should bring someone to full hit points from 1 HP with a single off turn action you might. Instead they are adding 1d4 to 1d10 hit points with a possible bonus of up to 1d6. So pulling an arrow out and ripping your shirt to staunch the flow of blood is entirely possible to restore up to 10 hit points of a 120 hit point character. Its as believable as restoring 100% hit points after a single nights rest.

I'm just giving believability to those that need it for martial healing to work. You could even house rule that it takes a healing kit charge to work or whatever. Also you should talk to paramedics, the first few seconds of treatment are crucial when dealing with stabilizing a wounded person...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
. Also you should talk to paramedics, the first few seconds of treatment are crucial when dealing with stabilizing a wounded person...Smile




This is very true and a good point.  My sister is a a doctor and brother-in-law an EMT, and they would 100% agree with this.  You are also highly like to survive a lightning strike if there is someone nearby to resuscitate you immediately.  Much less likely if not.


EDIT:  I forgot to mention that I don't agree with your solution though!  
As we all know, a skilled field medic only needs 6 seconds to remove an arrow, stop a bleeding wound or tend a broken limb and he can do all of that while the patient is engaged in melee with another combattant!

Nope, refluffing ain't going to work.


I haven't seen Pelor answering any of my six second prayers either, so I don't know how far we are going to get with your example in a fantasy game filled with adventurers.
I know they aren't in the current iteration of rules aside from on movement, but would the action be more believable if it provoked opportunity attacks, or could not be used while the healer or healee were engaged in combat?  Maybe we just need to change the style to 'we've got to back off for a second so I can get that arm of yours bandaged', rather than magically healing damage in the normal course of combat?

That might also help differentiate the feel and playstyle of martial vs magical healing, which in itself is probablya good thing.
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As we all know, a skilled field medic only needs 6 seconds to remove an arrow, stop a bleeding wound or tend a broken limb and he can do all of that while the patient is engaged in melee with another combattant!

Nope, refluffing ain't going to work.


I haven't seen Pelor answering any of my six second prayers either, so I don't know how far we are going to get with your example in a fantasy game filled with adventurers.



well that is how vancian works, you pray in advance.
then in combat shout he pelor rememer that prayer this morning. 
The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...



or you could go for the damage prevention option.

warning shout manuver.
with your knowlage of combat you notice a imminent treat to a ally and try to warn him of this treat alouwing him to anticipate the atack reducing the damage it couses.
Effect : when a ally within 60 feet that can hear you is hit by a attack you can use your reaction to spend some of your manuver dice to reduce the damage he takes.
roll the manuver dice you decided to use and subreact 1 for each 10 feat increment the ally is away from you.
the damage the ally takes is reduced by this amount, if the damage is reduced to 0 the hit becomes a miss.



The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...


As someone in favor of martial healing, I think that may be the worst possible refluff of it that I have ever seen.

Martial healing is at its best when we all remember that HPs aren't entirely, or even mostly, reflective of actual bodily harm.  That is martial healing's wheelhouse, and it works like a charm there.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I remember Mearls saying the Warlord will be about damage prevention rather than healing, and I think that's more in line with what is being described here, the kinds of effects where you negate the next 5 damage instead of healing it later and such. I also remember somewhere on this forum seeing the idea that they could grant benefits like the DIehard feat temporarily, and I think that's a good idea.

I actually think that it could be a class in its own right if they wanted to make it one. But this could also be a specialty that any class could take.
The first thing you have to understand HP is not all physical trauma, some of it is the ability to avoid blows to make them not as deadly. So when a Warlord restores HP it could simply be advice for avoiding the next hit or inspiring someone.
HP is an abstraction! Having to rationalize why they work is fruitless. I would recommend allowing the players to explain what happens to their character when they have HP loss and see where that takes the storytelling. Warlord or Bard HP restoration will make more sense when the player describes how they imagine it rather than force one form of justification over another.
I used to not apprieciate what HP represented and sought other games. Now that I have embraced the concept it can feel heroic to be at your last few HP and claim victory from the jaws of defeat! It happened recently in a game of ours where the entire party facing a Green Dragon was down except the Fighter, with only 3 HP remaining he circled around the beast struck a final blow to slay the beast! Had he not rolled so high to hit or missed the beast we could have described it as he was too wracked with pain to score a blow. It takes some time to develop this back and forth storytelling between a player, DM, and dice but once you get there it is very exciting and why the D&D game has endured 30+ years!

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

or you could go for the damage prevention option.

warning shout manuver.
with your knowlage of combat you notice a imminent treat to a ally and try to warn him of this treat alouwing him to anticipate the atack reducing the damage it couses.
Effect : when a ally within 60 feet that can hear you is hit by a attack you can use your reaction to spend some of your manuver dice to reduce the damage he takes.
roll the manuver dice you decided to use and subreact 1 for each 10 feat increment the ally is away from you.
the damage the ally takes is reduced by this amount, if the damage is reduced to 0 the hit becomes a miss.


A maneuver like that is not bad, but it is not as good as post-damage healing that Clerics can do except for the case where an attack would have otherwise killed a character. Being able to heal after the damage has been inflicted allows you to see the result of all of the enemies attacks on your party before you have to choose who to heal and what kind of healing power to use (ie. cure light wounds vs. cure critical wounds). Damage prevention like the one listed above is nice compared to nothing, but compared to post-damage healing means that damage mitigation / prevention uses up your reaction and you have to decide the moment an ally is attacked whether to lower the damage done to them without seeing how other attacks against your other allies are going to go. Even if your version does allow you to see that an ally is going to be hit by an attack, you still don't know if the attack is going to do a lot or only a little bit of damage at the moment you choose and this maneuver is still going to be controversial since a number of people on this forum wouldn't like the ability to use this maneuver after a hit at all. 

I haven't seen Pelor answering any of my six second prayers either, so I don't know how far we are going to get with your example in a fantasy game filled with adventurers.



You could also imagine being able to smash the floor with a warhammer and start an earthquake, or jump to the moon, or fart in the sea and start a tsunami. Being able to remove an arrow at an extraordinary rate much faster than any doctor could ever do is one thing, being able to do so while the patient is moving, dodging, blocking, parrying and swinging a sword is about the same fantasy level as having an at-will death attack because your breath stinks.

It's fine to have different levels of fantasy in a RPG. D&D traditionally goes from low fantasy to near greek mythology at epic levels. What is not ok is not to remain consistent from one class to another on the fantasy level. What we're describing here is greek mythology stuff. If a level 1 warlord can do greek mythology stuff, then so can the other classes. Wizards should be able to throw mountains at their opponents (even if it's a 1d10 attack), fighters should be able to do earthquakes and rogues should be able to burn down a forest using his fire breathing skill. 

High fantasy/superhero D&D is not my kind of fun. If you want your games do look like The Halitosis Kid, knock yourself out though.

P.S: keep praying, you'll get there eventually.

I haven't seen Pelor answering any of my six second prayers either, so I don't know how far we are going to get with your example in a fantasy game filled with adventurers.



You could also imagine being able to smash the floor with a warhammer and start an earthquake, or jump to the moon, or fart in the sea and start a tsunami. Being able to remove an arrow at an extraordinary rate much faster than any doctor could ever do is one thing, being able to do so while the patient is moving, dodging, blocking, parrying and swinging a sword is about the same fantasy level as having an at-will death attack because your breath stinks.


While I agree, I feel the need to point out that such a thing is not really what martial healing was meant to be.  In the context of what it was meant to be, martial healing does make a great deal of sense.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

My take on martial healing: instead of having the Warlord heal directly, let them activate other character's second wind and give it bonuses. So the Warlord is just helping you to heal the way you would normally heal yourself, rather than actually heal directly.
AJGibson-
I also like the idea of having a standard action Second Wind where you can spend 1 HD to recover as a combat action. Then you could have a feat or manuever "Inspiring Word" where you trade your Expertise Dice to allow another to spend a HD during combat without taking an action of their own.

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.

I know they aren't in the current iteration of rules aside from on movement, but would the action be more believable if it provoked opportunity attacks, or could not be used while the healer or healee were engaged in combat?  Maybe we just need to change the style to 'we've got to back off for a second so I can get that arm of yours bandaged', rather than magically healing damage in the normal course of combat?

That might also help differentiate the feel and playstyle of martial vs magical healing, which in itself is probablya good thing.



Actually I was hoping the daily limits of the Cleric and the expenditure of hit dice for the Warlord would differentiate them...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

While I agree, I feel the need to point out that such a thing is not really what martial healing was meant to be.  In the context of what it was meant to be, martial healing does make a great deal of sense.



Absolutely. I did not assume at all that the 4th edition warlord was being an epic surgeon. I was just pointing out that refluffing that ability isn't that easy.

I personally wouldn't mind a sidebar on an eventual warlord class basically saying: if you don't like martial healing, make it magical and stop bothtering us. If you don't like inspiring word, rename it to lay on hands. People didn't mind it on the paladin after all. That's the one I would be using because I'm more in the HP = meat camp but I can live with it in my PHB.

But at the same time, why is it so important to have non magical healing other than making a point? If there are healer feats, you could just as easily refluff them to martial healing.
The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...


As someone in favor of martial healing, I think that may be the worst possible refluff of it that I have ever seen.

Martial healing is at its best when we all remember that HPs aren't entirely, or even mostly, reflective of actual bodily harm.  That is martial healing's wheelhouse, and it works like a charm there.



I agree with your definition of hit points, but I'm trying to offer a believable olive branch to the hit points are purely injury crowd. Getting back 1 hit dice or expending a hit dice to get back 1d6 + cha mod or int mod hit points is completely believable when compared to 6 second prayers. I mean even if you do the whole prayed for 15 minutes in the morning for a shout out prayer, you could do the same with the Warlord prepping bandages and instructing each party member for 15 minutes per day on how to quickly bandage a wound in the heat of battle so that when he calls out for them to bandage themselves they can quickly do it...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...


As someone in favor of martial healing, I think that may be the worst possible refluff of it that I have ever seen.

Martial healing is at its best when we all remember that HPs aren't entirely, or even mostly, reflective of actual bodily harm.  That is martial healing's wheelhouse, and it works like a charm there.



I agree with your definition of hit points, but I'm trying to offer a believable olive branch to the hit points are purely injury crowd.


I don't think an olive brance will work here, as I see the gap as being too far apart.  I mentioned in another thread that HPs being purely physical damage is something that utterly fails me (I find the idea of a character with an axe-wound to the face and sporting a porcupine of arrows but able to fight at full capacity laughably suspension breaking).  In a like vein, I also mentioned that people who have the opposite view (that HPs only represent physical harm) probably feel about martial healing the way I do about the notion that all HPs are physical damage.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

The solution is to State that "All Hits are glancing blow, scratch and bruise". and "Even at hit point, you are only knock down", waiting for a wake up from your warlord or a prayer from your cleric.
That statements allow martial, self and any other kind healing you want. Hit point should be a game mechanics and have no link to real damage.
Real damage like a arrow wounds, a broken legs, head trauma and others should be reserved to special occasion prepared wisely by the DM.

Why kill a character if he's going to be back rapidly by a raise dead? Unless you want to punish your player and ground him at home for a couple of session. In 2013 that don't make sense no more.



I would dearly love to see a fighter/warlord medic who has herballism style skills to restore "real" HP/deal with disease etc, and inspirational shouts that give Temp HP or other situational bonuses.

That would be freakin' awesome and mesh really well with my preferred view of divine cleric magic (the "true" healing) and arcane healing (very limimted, necromantic life leeching type "healing").

I hope they give me the option in 5e to do this, or something approximate.

I definitely dont want a fully fledged "cleric replacement" style warlord. I want something with it's own flavour and niche and if my players have a cleric and warlord in one party that they work well together, but dont step on each others toes.

The more i type this the more i want to play this kind of fighter/warlord myself!!  Make it so devs!
Personally I find that simply moving away from "healing" and accepting that there are several different ways to restore Hit Points, because Hit Points represent a number of different things, is the best solution.

Because RAW HP in Next are the same as HP in every other edition, a combination of many elements which only become serious wounds at 0HP and below.

To be honest it's actually spells like "Cure Minor Wounds" which are ACTUALLY healing the most serious wounds and the fact that "Cure Light" can heal all wounds, no matter how serious, that strain disbelief more than non-magical Hit Point restoration.

Now, should there be restrictions on such restoration at and below 0HP?

Sure.

But I'd also like to see a "Heal" action which allows an an adjacent PC to make an attribute check to bring a wounded PC from 0HP or below back to 1HP in the rules. 

That'd be the other "half" of the non-magical healing question sorted. 
Hit point damage has never represented maiming or other crippling injuries in any edition. The only time someone is maimed within the hit point system is when they reach "Dead", at which point no healing (martial, divine, or otherwise) restores hit points. Any system of crippling wounds has always been separate from the hit point mechanic, such as the critical hit tables of 2E's Combat and Tactics.

Hit point damage has represented a combination of fatigue, morale, strains (from near-misses or from rolling with a blow). It is the sort of damage that (to use a reference that most will still get) Aragorn takes fighting the orc captain at the end of Fellowship. The nicks and bruises are cosmetic; he's left close to collapse by a combination of fatigue and strain. (Not so much morale though - Frodo does a better job of illustrating a fatigue/morale combination several times throughout the LotR movies, until Sam the Warlord does his Inspiring Word thing and exhorts him to keep going - morale-HP restoration, in essence.) It isn't very long - a few minutes - before Aragorn has recovered (and is essentially back at full HP) from that battering, enough to take off on a multi-day cross-country marathon.

So, if hit points are about morale, stamina, and strain, and hit points never represent (under the system's assumption, anyway) severe injury or maiming, what is the difference between a Healing Word and an Inspiring Word? Not a whole lot, actually.

A Healing Word isn't causing massive wounds to close up and stop bleeding (because hit points don't represent those); it's essentially a shot of divine Red Bull. Mr. Low HP has been bashed around enough that he's in danger of toppling over due to fatigue and short-term strain, and maybe he doesn't have the greatest confidence (morale) as a result, either; the Healing Word reinvigorates him so he isn't about to topple over anymore... much like Inspiring Word does.

This is also why they both work at negative HPs - the character has been bashed around enough that they HAVE collapsed, but they can still be inspired (via either method) to rally themselves and get up again (see: Frodo in LotR).

This also why actual maiming - if it is an issue - is never healed by hit point restoration, whether it's a cleric or a warlord involved. If you got your hand cut off in D&D 1E/2E/3E, no quantity of Cure Miscellaneous Wounds spells solved it. You needed a Regeneration spell.

In short, the solution to martial healing as it relates to hit points is to realize that it is the same thing as what divine healing has represented in relation to hit points in ALL of the editions to date.

It is unfortunate that the design team doesn't seem to grasp that.
The solution to martial healing is simply to realize that classes like the Warlord allow characters to take off turn actions. Once you realize that you can fluff martial healing as the Warlord shouting an inspiring phrase like "Shrug it off, soldier" or "Pull that arrow out and keep on fighting" and you refluff it as the character taking an off turn action to bandage their wounds.

There problem solved...

"bandage?"  Really?

 

 

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I posted this in another thread. I consider it the "solution".

 
They seem to be going out of their way to make 4E/Warlord fans unhappy:

1. Put a Warlord class in Next. If people don't want the Warlord, they can ban it. They could include some optional Fighter manueuvers to replace the Warlord as well for people who think its best under the Fighter banner.

2. Give the Warlord martial healing good enough to replace the Cleric. Make it be an optional choice between that and some other class feature, like damage mitigation. People who dislike martial/Warlord healing can ban that option and use the rest of the class.

Do the above two things, and everybody wins. This isn't rocket science, just use the modularity the designers pretend is supposed to be a feature of 5E. This is Next, isn't everybody supposed to win?

...whatever
Hit points are physical durability and overall health, speed and agility to avoid harm, and overall level of energy.
What impacts hit points are luck, divine favor, and other mystic phenomena.

Mundane healing, currently, only supports your body's own natural capacity to heal itself (i.e. taps hit dice). 

Danny

Yeah I agree with some of those above.  We just need separate systems.  I consider the arrows sticking out like a pin cushion as a straw man but who cares.  We are not going to agree on what we want.  What is more important is finding a happy solution because both sides consider it a deal breaker.

I agree with casual above except I'd add that I want the warlord to be playable without healing as an additional option.  Meaning drop the healing and add something else.  Because to me the warlord is a cool concept from a tactics perspective.  I can live though with casuals idea as it stands if thats our only option.
Speaking just for myself (although I suspect I am not alone in my opinion) - the problem with martial healing wasn't that it was possible


It wasn't that I see hit points as just physical damage (I don't).  



The problem was that something which was portrayed as 'inspiration' and 'motivating the character to push on ' and other non-physical effects worked on characters who were unconscious  or otherwise unaware of the 'healer'.


This is what 'doesn't fit' in my mind.


And yes - that makes it harder to create a warlord or other non-magical healer that is 'the equal of the cleric' if one can heal you from unconsciousness and the other cannot.  But just because it is harder, that doesn't mean I see it as acceptable to just wave your hands and say 'it works because balance'. 


As long as warlords or other non-magical healers must interact with the character - either remotely by inspiring a conscious and aware character or through physical contact when the character is down and out - I don't have a problem.


But focusing on the meaning of hit points isn't the issue (and I don't think it is the issue for many of those who remain skeptical of non-magical healing as it occured in 4E).  Focus instead on mechanics and approachs for a non-magical healer that can be equivalent to the healer without breaking my suspension of disbelief  (and without - as some have tried to do in the past when this issue was brought up - telling me that 'unconscious' doesn't really mean 'unconscious' and 'deaf' doesn't really mean 'deaf'.)


Carl     
Speaking just for myself (although I suspect I am not alone in my opinion) - the problem with martial healing wasn't that it was possible

It wasn't that I see hit points as just physical damage (I don't).  

The problem was that something which was portrayed as 'inspiration' and 'motivating the character to push on ' and other non-physical effects worked on characters who were unconscious  or otherwise unaware of the 'healer'.

This is what 'doesn't fit' in my mind.

And yes - that makes it harder to create a warlord or other non-magical healer that is 'the equal of the cleric' if one can heal you from unconsciousness and the other cannot.  But just because it is harder, that doesn't mean I see it as acceptable to just wave your hands and say 'it works because balance'. 

As long as warlords or other non-magical healers must interact with the character - either remotely by inspiring a conscious and aware character or through physical contact when the character is down and out - I don't have a problem.

But focusing on the meaning of hit points isn't the issue (and I don't think it is the issue for many of those who remain skeptical of non-magical healing as it occured in 4E).  Focus instead on mechanics and approachs for a non-magical healer that can be equivalent to the healer without breaking my suspension of disbelief  (and without - as some have tried to do in the past when this issue was brought up - telling me that 'unconscious' doesn't really mean 'unconscious' and 'deaf' doesn't really mean 'deaf'.)

Carl

Nice post!

I largely agree with most of it.

Danny


Carl     




You are a third category Carl. I do have issues with martial healing even while awake.  But you make a good point.  Some fall in a middle camp where some martial healing is okay and some is not.  

Not sure the best approach on this but I do advocate they try to address your needs too.  I'm guessing that if they made me (physical) and the non-physical people happy that with some minor rules options they could make you happy too.
Speaking just for myself (although I suspect I am not alone in my opinion) - the problem with martial healing wasn't that it was possible


It wasn't that I see hit points as just physical damage (I don't).  



The problem was that something which was portrayed as 'inspiration' and 'motivating the character to push on ' and other non-physical effects worked on characters who were unconscious  or otherwise unaware of the 'healer'.


This is what 'doesn't fit' in my mind.


And yes - that makes it harder to create a warlord or other non-magical healer that is 'the equal of the cleric' if one can heal you from unconsciousness and the other cannot.  But just because it is harder, that doesn't mean I see it as acceptable to just wave your hands and say 'it works because balance'. 


As long as warlords or other non-magical healers must interact with the character - either remotely by inspiring a conscious and aware character or through physical contact when the character is down and out - I don't have a problem.


But focusing on the meaning of hit points isn't the issue (and I don't think it is the issue for many of those who remain skeptical of non-magical healing as it occured in 4E).  Focus instead on mechanics and approachs for a non-magical healer that can be equivalent to the healer without breaking my suspension of disbelief  (and without - as some have tried to do in the past when this issue was brought up - telling me that 'unconscious' doesn't really mean 'unconscious' and 'deaf' doesn't really mean 'deaf'.)


Carl     

I can't think of an application of martial healing while unconscious that doesn't directly trigger consciousness as a result. 

"Wake up soldier!"
"Snap out of it!"

The Warlord's force of personality is such that it triggers the recovery. 
...whatever
You are a third category Carl. I do have issues with martial healing even while awake.  But you make a good point.  Some fall in a middle camp where some martial healing is okay and some is not.  

Not sure the best approach on this but I do advocate they try to address your needs too.  I'm guessing that if they made me (physical) and the non-physical people happy that with some minor rules options they could make you happy too.

Huh... I'm part of this third category and I didn't even realize!


I can't think of an application of martial healing while unconscious that doesn't directly trigger consciousness as a result. 

"Wake up soldier!"
"Snap out of it!"

The Warlord's force of personality is such that it triggers the recovery.

The rules governing unconsciousness state that an unconscious creature "cannot move, take actions, or perceive its surroundings." (How to Play 20)

If you cannot perceive your surroundings, how are you able to hear the warlord's motivations?

Danny

You are a third category Carl. I do have issues with martial healing even while awake.  But you make a good point.  Some fall in a middle camp where some martial healing is okay and some is not.  

Not sure the best approach on this but I do advocate they try to address your needs too.  I'm guessing that if they made me (physical) and the non-physical people happy that with some minor rules options they could make you happy too.

Huh... I'm part of this third category and I didn't even realize!


I can't think of an application of martial healing while unconscious that doesn't directly trigger consciousness as a result. 

"Wake up soldier!"
"Snap out of it!"

The Warlord's force of personality is such that it triggers the recovery.

The rules governing unconsciousness state that an unconscious creature "cannot move, take actions, or perceive its surroundings." (How to Play 20)

If you cannot perceive your surroundings, how are you able to hear the warlord's motivations?




The Warlord's personal power of persuasion breaks through the barrier. The unconscious PC doesn't hear, the Warlord forces them to hear.
...whatever
I agree with casual above except I'd add that I want the warlord to be playable without healing as an additional option.  Meaning drop the healing and add something else.  

Like the damage mitigation he mentioned?  When you think about it, though, the current 5e cleric can be a pretty easily decline to be a healer if the player wants it that way.  Just take one of a number of domains that don't improve healing ability, and don't prepare any Cure...Spells.

No reason the Warlord class couldn't have a comparable degree of flexibility and choice for the player.



 

 

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