Circle of Protection and choosing sources

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some various questions:


1) I cast Raging Goblin. While it's on the stack, my opponent uses their Circle of Protection: Red, choosing my Raging Goblin when choosing the source. When my Raging Goblin resolves and attacks, does the damage it would deal get prevented?

2) suppose i use any one of the following abilities:
- i activate a Forecast ability
- i activate a Ninjutsu ability
- (or more usefully for my opponent), i activate Infernal Spawn of Evil ability (assuming that the length of time its revealed from my hand when i activate its ability is similar to either how Forecast or Ninjutsu works)

can my opponent's Story Circle (with the appropriate colour chosen) ever be able to choose the card i reveal from my hand as the chosen source, in any of the above cases, even though the card in my hand is still in a hidden zone?
1) I cast Raging Goblin. While it's on the stack, my opponent uses their Circle of Protection: Red, choosing my Raging Goblin when choosing the source. When my Raging Goblin resolves and attacks, does the damage it would deal get prevented?

Yes. Prevention effects linger onto permanent spells after they enter the battlefield.

2) suppose i use any one of the following abilities:
- i activate a Forecast ability
- i activate a Ninjutsu ability
- (or more usefully for my opponent), i activate Infernal Spawn of Evil ability (assuming that the length of time its revealed from my hand when i activate its ability is similar to either how Forecast or Ninjutsu works)

can my opponent's Story Circle (with the appropriate colour chosen) ever be able to choose the card i reveal from my hand as the chosen source, in any of the above cases, even though the card in my hand is still in a hidden zone?

The card is revealed from the time you activate it until the time it resovles. If your opponent activates Story Circle in that time frame, he can choose it as a source.

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Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

1) I cast Raging Goblin. While it's on the stack, my opponent uses their Circle of Protection: Red, choosing my Raging Goblin when choosing the source. When my Raging Goblin resolves and attacks, does the damage it would deal get prevented?

Yes. Prevention effects linger onto permanent spells after they enter the battlefield.



i can't seem to find where it says that in the comp rules. can you help me out?


2) suppose i use any one of the following abilities:
- i activate a Forecast ability
- i activate a Ninjutsu ability
- (or more usefully for my opponent), i activate Infernal Spawn of Evil ability (assuming that the length of time its revealed from my hand when i activate its ability is similar to either how Forecast or Ninjutsu works)

can my opponent's Story Circle (with the appropriate colour chosen) ever be able to choose the card i reveal from my hand as the chosen source, in any of the above cases, even though the card in my hand is still in a hidden zone?

The card is revealed from the time you activate it until the time it resovles. If your opponent activates Story Circle in that time frame, he can choose it as a source.



wow, this surprises me! my opponent can choose an object that is in a hidden zone that is hidden from them?!!
This probably covers everything:

609.7a If an effect requires a player to choose a source of damage, he or she may choose a permanent; a spell on the stack (including a permanent spell); any object referred to by an object on the stack, by a replacement or prevention effect that's waiting to apply, or by a delayed triggered ability that's waiting to trigger (even if that object is no longer in the zone it used to be in); or, for certain casual variant games, a face-up card in the command zone. A source doesn't need to be capable of dealing damage to be a legal choice. The source is chosen when the effect is created. If the player chooses a permanent, the effect will apply to the next damage dealt by that permanent, regardless of whether it's combat damage or damage dealt as the result of a spell or ability. If the player chooses a permanent spell, the effect will apply to any damage dealt by that spell and any damage dealt by the permanent that spell becomes when it resolves.

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

Natedogg, it does, thanks.

i did a Ctrl+F on the comprehensive rules for "hidden zone", and i realize i was reading WAY too much into something being in a hidden zone. it's embarrassing to admit, but in my mind i was making up rules (such as "all cards in a hidden zone that are hidden from a player are indestinguishable from each other, and thus any individual card in that hidden zone cannot be chosen by that player") that don't exist.
There's also this:

701.13a. To reveal a card, show that card to all players for a brief time. If an effect causes a card to be revealed, it remains revealed for as long as necessary to complete the parts of the effect that card is relevant to. If the cost to cast a spell or activate an ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it the time it leaves the stack.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

oh, cool. so i know that Infernal Spawn of Evil (and his kid, Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil) can be chosen by Story Circle. (although doing it for the latter card is kind of crazy -- choosing an object that's in the middle of an opponent's library )

(i only knew about how long a card with a Forecast or Ninjutsu ability is revealed by reading their respective entires in the comp rules; i didn't know about the rule you posted).
2) suppose
- i activate a Forecast ability
can my opponent's Story Circle (with the appropriate colour chosen) ever be able to choose the card i reveal from my hand as the chosen source, in any of the above cases, even though the card in my hand is still in a hidden zone?

The card is revealed from the time you activate it until the time it resovles. If your opponent activates Story Circle in that time frame, he can choose it as a source.

But then, when the card ceases to be revealed, the Circle loses track of it. If it's later played, you won't be protected against that card, right?

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

Correct. It becomes a new object when it moves from the library to the hand, then again when it moves from the hand to the stack. Neither of these are protected by the rule Nate quoted.

It probably also gets lost when it stops being revealed, or at the very least, when your library is shuffled. 401.7 gives us a precedent to believe so, but I can't find a rule that applies to cards being revealed in general.

401.7. If an effect causes a player to play with the top card of his or her library revealed, and that particular card stops being revealed for any length of time before being revealed again, it becomes a new object.


Bowshewicz wrote:
===
It probably also gets lost when it stops being revealed, or at the very least, when your library is shuffled.
===

this is only relevant for Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil? or are you saying that there are cases where the revealed top card of my library can be chosen as a source, in some scenario?

and, assuming that it really does become a new object when your library is shuffled, i realize now that you could never use Story Circle on Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil, because after activating Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil's ability, your library (probably) will be shuffled by the spell or ability that let you search through it in the first place. the next time the controller of Story Circle would get priority, Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil will be a new object, therefore not referred to by its activated ability on the stack. (which means the activated ability on the stack will always need to use Last Known Information of the Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil in your library that it was referring to).

WOW, i love it when learning the rules more in depth gives you surprising insight on how a card you used before ACTUALLY works!
or are you saying that there are cases where the revealed top card of my library can be chosen as a source, in some scenario?

You can choose it as a source if it is an "object referred to by an object on the stack, by a replacement or prevention effect that's waiting to apply, or by a delayed triggered ability that's waiting to trigger (even if that object is no longer in the zone it used to be in) . . . ." Basically if an effect says that the top card of your library deals damage to you, you can choose that source to prevent damage from.
Actually, what I'm saying is that, according to my intuitive understanding of how the game should work, you can't choose an arbitrary card in your library as a source if it was revealed before, but isn't now. For example, you wouldn't be able to pick Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as a source because it was revealed in a clash earlier in the turn.

Not that I even know how that would ever be relevant. Anyway, my problem is that I couldn't find rules support for my claim, and I doubt I'm likely to without a concrete example.
WOW, i love it when learning the rules more in depth gives you surprising insight on how a card you used before ACTUALLY works!

Please stop talking about Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil. It is an Unhinged card. It does not work within the rules.
Actually, what I'm saying is that, according to my intuitive understanding of how the game should work, you can't choose an arbitrary card in your library as a source if it was revealed before, but isn't now. For example, you wouldn't be able to pick Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as a source because it was revealed in a clash earlier in the turn.

Even if that object is not revealed or does not exist anymore, you can still choose it as a source if it is an "object referred to by an object on the stack, by a replacement or prevention effect that's waiting to apply, or by a delayed triggered ability that's waiting to trigger (even if that object is no longer in the zone it used to be in) . . . ." So basically if there is ever a reason for you to choose it, you could.
it is silly, but it works within the rules as far as I can tell
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Doesn't really work, since the ability is neither activated nor triggered, but requires a payment of speaking and mana... And I don't think it can qualify as a special action, either, since you don't have priority while you would need it to perform a special action.

Also, "Do this no more than once each turn." means nothing, because it becomes a new object each time you shuffle it back into your library...

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

There's no situation that I can come up with in the real game where this matters, so I'm fine if no one answers. Here's my question anyway:

We have a theoretical ability: Whenever a creature card is revealed, it deals damage equal to its power to target player.

So right off the bat we have a weird situation where a card in your library is dealig damage, but I think that's okay. Now, Emmy shows her face in a clash, so you activate Story Circle to prevent the damage. Twice. The next time you clash (still the same turn, of course), is the damage prevented? Who knows, it's a hypothetical! Now, if anyone can set up a situation that can actually happen, I'd love to know the answer.

So my real, kinda-sorta belongs in RQ&A, question is: Do the rules support this interaction, and what do they say happens?
Also, "Do this no more than once each turn." means nothing, because it becomes a new object each time you shuffle it back into your library...

I've been looking for the rule that confirms this, but I didn't find it! I totally think this should happen, but I'm having some trouble locating it in the CR. Can you quote the rule that says it works this way?
The rules don't support this interaction. Such an ability would be worded "Whenever a creature card is revealed, [this thing that is the source of the ability] deals damage equal to the revealed card's power to target player." for exactly that reason.

And no, an Emrakul card that stops being revealed stops being the same source, just like if you choose Emrakul on the battlefield, it gets sacrificed then returned with Loyal Retainers to pair with Lightning Mauler, that damage won't be prevented either...

Also, "Do this no more than once each turn." means nothing, because it becomes a new object each time you shuffle it back into your library...

I've been looking for the rule that confirms this, but I didn't find it! I totally think this should happen, but I'm having some trouble locating it in the CR. Can you quote the rule that says it works this way?


401.7. If an effect causes a player to play with the top card of his or her library revealed, and that particular card stops being revealed for any length of time before being revealed again, it becomes a new object.


Does that work for you? Like I say, the rules don't actually support cards in the library being sources of damage anyway...

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

Like I say, the rules don't actually support cards in the library being sources of damage anyway...


I'm not sure if that is true.  Whilst it would be weird and the designers would probably want to avoid it, I don't think that there is any rules reason why cards in the library can't be the source of damage.  That said there are some problems with the proposed ability.  If you use Signal the Clans  to reveal a card then shuffled that card into you library then you used a second Signal the Clans to reveal a card with the same name, there would be no way to know if that was the same source or not.  This could be solved by expanding 401.7 to cover whenever a card in the library stops being revealed then is revealed again.  A similar problem would exist with cards in hand.
When I say the rules don't support it, it's because of that very reason. There's nothing to clearly state a card in the library other than the top one becomes a new object when it stops being revealed (because there's no need for it to say that). Therefore, there's no way to verify if a newly revealed card is indeed the same object, and there would only be one logical conclusion (which would need to be added to the rules to support it).

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

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