At-will cantrips *and additionally* learning cantrips as 1st level spells

One thing that has really frustrated me about at-will cantrips (and I *like* at-will cantrips) is the fact that you are limited to a certain number of them, while you can learn *every other spell in the book.* Cantrips are explicitly supposed to be the simplest spells to learn...but I can only ever know so many?

What I think would work (not worrying about individual spell balance at the moment) is to simply allow casters to learn and prepare cantrips as 1st level spells, in addition to having access to the normal cantrips.

Something like this was essentially tried two packets ago with 0th level spells, but enough people misunderstood and overreacted to the implementation (too few and too little choice as to which at-wills), or the developers overreacted to the feedback, that it was nixed. Which is a real shame.

Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?
I see no problem with characters preparing Cantrips as a Spell (consider them Level 0 Spells). As they are generally inferior to other spells, it is only marginally advantageous.

I would also like it if you could gain more Cantrips as you increase in level, but I am sure others would disagree.
i think they need to use the max level of spells known and max number of spells per level known which was part of the 1st and 2nd edition int table. they should make cantrips level 0 spells with little to no damage potential and more for minor effects. then if they want to make some of the damaging cantrips level 1 spells thats something i would support
One thing that has really frustrated me about at-will cantrips (and I *like* at-will cantrips) is the fact that you are limited to a certain number of them, while you can learn *every other spell in the book.* Cantrips are explicitly supposed to be the simplest spells to learn...but I can only ever know so many?

OK, that's an issue.  It might be better to think of them as 'signature spells,' spells that aren't really any easier than other low-level spells, you've just put the effort into mastering them to the point you don't use slots.

What I think would work (not worrying about individual spell balance at the moment) is to simply allow casters to learn and prepare cantrips as 1st level spells, in addition to having access to the normal cantrips.

I actually see no balance problem with that.

Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?

Believability goes out the window with Vancian casting, but, yes, the above rationale is a self-consistent one, and that implied by the current ruleset isn't.

 

 

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OK, that's an issue.  It might be better to think of them as 'signature spells,' spells that aren't really any easier than other low-level spells, you've just put the effort into mastering them to the point you don't use slots.



Yeah, I had thought of that way of looking at it. The major problem with it is that you should be able to learn spells that replicate those effects. I could understand having a signature damaging spell, but things like light and read magic should be available to anyone. If they included 1st level versions of all of the effects that cantrips can create (a better illusion spell, some sort of mage armor type of ability, etc), then it would also work. Another way would just be to fold cantrips into 1st level spells and allow casters to select a few that they can use at-will.

Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?



I find it harder to belive that you can cast cantrips atwill 24 hours a day but can only cast a 1st level spell that is in some cases a lesser spell than the cantrip once.

Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?



I find it harder to belive that you can cast cantrips atwill 24 hours a day but can only cast a 1st level spell that is in some cases a lesser spell than the cantrip once.


Then wouldnt that mean that they have mislabeled the spell instead? If a cantrip is out powering a 1st level spell then either the 1st level spell should be a cantrip or the cantrip a first level spell. This is a matter of early pre production issues not necessarily bad spell design.

Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?



I find it harder to belive that you can cast cantrips atwill 24 hours a day but can only cast a 1st level spell that is in some cases a lesser spell than the cantrip once.





Examples please (or are you labeling all utility spells as inferior to a damaging cantrip)?


Besides which - I think there is a tendency to make some spells level 1 spells because they aren't generally useful enough to be worth spending a cantrip slot (which is inflexible).  If a spell such as comprehend languages was a cantrip I suspect few players would take it; as a 1st level spell many will put it in their spell books to prepare when they expect to need it.


There is more to assigning the distinction between level 0 and level 1 spells than pure power.


That said - I absolutely support the idea of allowing a player to learn cantrips as level 1 spells and cast them as if they were level 1 spells.     In fact, this is likely to become a new house rule.


If they wanted to add a level 0 daily spells per day column to the class as well, that would be even better.  I.e. most cantrips must be prepared and cast like the level 1, etc spells - but the wizard can learn two (or more with the right feats/ race) cantrips which they can cast at-will.  This then makes it easier for the 'anti-at-will' crowd to get what they want:  They just take away the ability to cast a few of them at-will.

Carl                

One thing that has really frustrated me about at-will cantrips (and I *like* at-will cantrips) is the fact that you are limited to a certain number of them, while you can learn *every other spell in the book.* Cantrips are explicitly supposed to be the simplest spells to learn...but I can only ever know so many?

OK, that's an issue.  It might be better to think of them as 'signature spells,' spells that aren't really any easier than other low-level spells, you've just put the effort into mastering them to the point you don't use slots.

I like the term signature spells better than cantrips, especially for the damage spells that are considered cantrips in the latest playtest packets.

I think cantrips should be low power spells, that can be cast "at-will" but have little overall effect.

What I think would work (not worrying about individual spell balance at the moment) is to simply allow casters to learn and prepare cantrips as 1st level spells, in addition to having access to the normal cantrips.

I actually see no balance problem with that.

Nor do I.

Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?

Believability goes out the window with Vancian casting, but, yes, the above rationale is a self-consistent one, and that implied by the current ruleset isn't.

I find Vancian believable for the D&D fantasy world. I realize others don't; but, just because some people don't feel that way, that doesn't make it unilaterally true.

Personally, I think wizards should gradually over time have certain spells of progressibly higher level become "signature spells".  Maybe spells start daily, and then become, encounter, and finally become at will.  I'm imagining a spell or two around 4th or 5th level become at-will by the time the wizard reaches 20th level, with maybe a 7th level spell being encounter. 
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
This isn't a bad shout. I think I'll go ahead and do this.
I hadn't thought about it before, but I can certainly see it as the case that giving Cantrips the name formerly assigned to zero-level spells does kind of feel like it implies that they should be weaker than any other spell, rather than just differently designed. There's also something aesthetically unappealing about the fact that an at-will option eventually outclasses a limited-use option. While there's relatively few cases of this currently (The weakest Inflict X Wounds spells go obsolete at very high levels if you don't care about the damage type or healing undead and you're a cleric that has Lance of Faith as a cantrip), it still feels strange.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.

Then wouldnt that mean that they have mislabeled the spell instead? If a cantrip is out powering a 1st level spell then either the 1st level spell should be a cantrip or the cantrip a first level spell. This is a matter of early pre production issues not necessarily bad spell design.




1st level or cantrip doesn’t matter as much as the contrast in usage.  You can do one 14,000 times a day and the other 1-5 times a day. 

I think cantrips should be out.
the distinction is useless
Let the wizards pick a few spells among 1st level spells and have him cast those at will, the rest need spell slots to cast.
That would be much simpler and solve the OP's issue 
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I think cantrips should be out.
the distinction is useless
Let the wizards pick a few spells among 1st level spells and have him cast those at will, the rest need spell slots to cast.
That would be much simpler and solve the OP's issue 



It would make design easier.   For damage spells you could even carry the scaling down as well as up and define the damage it does when cast as a cantrip (just as the damage done when cast using a higher level slot is defined).


If necessary.


Carl  

Then wouldnt that mean that they have mislabeled the spell instead? If a cantrip is out powering a 1st level spell then either the 1st level spell should be a cantrip or the cantrip a first level spell. This is a matter of early pre production issues not necessarily bad spell design.




1st level or cantrip doesn’t matter as much as the contrast in usage.  You can do one 14,000 times a day and the other 1-5 times a day. 



Actually I think it matters allot because IF the cantrip out shines the 1st level spells then something has not been tuned correctly. I would hope that if a person who has been trained/practiced in magic constantly that some of that persons skill would be constantly usable. It would fit for a person to use something like mage hand pretty consistantly through the day.

Then wouldnt that mean that they have mislabeled the spell instead? If a cantrip is out powering a 1st level spell then either the 1st level spell should be a cantrip or the cantrip a first level spell. This is a matter of early pre production issues not necessarily bad spell design.




1st level or cantrip doesn’t matter as much as the contrast in usage.  You can do one 14,000 times a day and the other 1-5 times a day. 



Actually I think it matters allot because IF the cantrip out shines the 1st level spells then something has not been tuned correctly. I would hope that if a person who has been trained/practiced in magic constantly that some of that persons skill would be constantly usable. It would fit for a person to use something like mage hand pretty consistantly through the day.



Being able to do them 14,000 times a day means they outshine more than 1st level spells. The design flaw imo is that they are atwill and other spells arent. Vancian casting is like the Lakers or Yankees. Most basketball and baseball fans hate them yet they are the most popular teams. It makes no sense to give us vancian light. Give us a hardcore vancian tradition for the people that like it and a real alternative for the people that dont.
Being able to do them 14,000 times a day means they outshine more than 1st level spells. The design flaw imo is that they are atwill and other spells arent.

Nod. Then again, at-will abilities are a lot easier to balance than daily ones, so resolving the issue by ditching Vancian makes as much, if not more, sense than resolving it by making cantrips Vancian.  

Besides, that's not what anyone's really asked for.  And, I think the 'mastering the spell' idea works fine.  The cantrips you cast at-will are "mastered" you're just that good at them.  Other cantrips can be memorized as 1st level spells, and function at 1st level effectiveness.  They're quite weak, but it's just to establish consistency, not because a high level mage would often want to devote a slot to casting a single magic missle.


 

 

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Then wouldnt that mean that they have mislabeled the spell instead? If a cantrip is out powering a 1st level spell then either the 1st level spell should be a cantrip or the cantrip a first level spell. This is a matter of early pre production issues not necessarily bad spell design.




1st level or cantrip doesn’t matter as much as the contrast in usage.  You can do one 14,000 times a day and the other 1-5 times a day. 



Actually I think it matters allot because IF the cantrip out shines the 1st level spells then something has not been tuned correctly. I would hope that if a person who has been trained/practiced in magic constantly that some of that persons skill would be constantly usable. It would fit for a person to use something like mage hand pretty consistantly through the day.



Being able to do them 14,000 times a day means they outshine more than 1st level spells. The design flaw imo is that they are atwill and other spells arent. Vancian casting is like the Lakers or Yankees. Most basketball and baseball fans hate them yet they are the most popular teams. It makes no sense to give us vancian light. Give us a hardcore vancian tradition for the people that like it and a real alternative for the people that dont.

You have a point I guess. I think spell points make more since then vancian anyway. If I want to have a character thats able to keep rolling then I either use less points or IF the DM allows I buy "Spell Energy Replinishments" or "Mana Potions". I personally think that magic would make as much since to have components as the determining factor if you want to cast instead of slots.

Nod. Then again, at-will abilities are a lot easier to balance than daily ones, so resolving the issue by ditching Vancian makes as much, if not more, sense than resolving it by making cantrips Vancian.  





Balancing atwill magic is easy if you develop something that is as devoid of flavor as Next cantrips and 4e atwills. For now the devs dont have to worry about balance. They have thousands of playtesters who would love to test rival traditions in the same adventure.  





Besides, that's not what anyone's really asked for.  And, I think the 'mastering the spell' idea works fine.  The cantrips you cast at-will are "mastered" you're just that good at them.  Other cantrips can be memorized as 1st level spells, and function at 1st level effectiveness.  They're quite weak, but it's just to establish consistency, not because a high level mage would often want to devote a slot to casting a single magic missle.




 

Then why cant the wizard master 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells too? The purpose of a class is to build character. A class has to have the potential or room for many concepts. Mastering the same handful of spells isn’t character its conformity. It was a means to give the vancian caster a magical gun and armor. It didn’t develop naturally from the concept of vancian casting.

Then why cant the wizard master 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells too? The purpose of a class is to build character. A class has to have the potential or room for many concepts. Mastering the same handful of spells isn’t character its conformity. It was a means to give the vancian caster a magical gun and armor. It didn’t develop naturally from the concept of vancian casting.



I have been a proponent of the idea of casters getting to Master higher level spells. Instead of boosting Attack Cantrips, how about a 7th level caster being able to cast a Level 1 spell At-Will. Eventually (13th?) give start allowing Level 2 spells. Finally, at the top (19th?) give out a Level 3 spell at will. I know it's more complicated that this, but it could be workable system if the spells are designed with that in mind.

Oh, and for the Vancian system hate... Vancian may be standard, but you'll have your alternate system too.

I would prefer that daily spells slots as the starting point, and then provide some mechanism to convert those slots to weaker versions of a spell to make it at-will. With the caveat that at-wills always need a save or attack roll when doing damage or granting a condition. So you could use that in reference to zero level spell slots, for example a 1st level spell slot can be traded for 2 at-will cantrips. Rituals is the other obivous choice that would need to be considered against caster at-wills when considering casting spells all day. That is probably more important for NPC casters that have endless resources.
Personally, I think wizards should gradually over time have certain spells of progressibly higher level become "signature spells".  Maybe spells start daily, and then become, encounter, and finally become at will.  I'm imagining a spell or two around 4th or 5th level become at-will by the time the wizard reaches 20th level, with maybe a 7th level spell being encounter. 


This is a great idea.  I would not allow any spells to be cast at-will though.  All spells should require at least a short rest.  Keep 0 level spells weaker than 1st level.  Allow Wizards to move their signature spells up a level every 4 or 5 levels rather than constantly increasing the strength of cantrips.

Some wizards might pick fireball as their signature spell at 12th level to cast between short rests.  Others might prefer fly or dimension door.
Then why cant the wizard master 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells too? The purpose of a class is to build character. A class has to have the potential or room for many concepts. Mastering the same handful of spells isn’t character its conformity. It was a means to give the vancian caster a magical gun and armor. It didn’t develop naturally from the concept of vancian casting.



I have been a proponent of the idea of casters getting to Master higher level spells. Instead of boosting Attack Cantrips, how about a 7th level caster being able to cast a Level 1 spell At-Will. Eventually (13th?) give start allowing Level 2 spells. Finally, at the top (19th?) give out a Level 3 spell at will. I know it's more complicated that this, but it could be workable system if the spells are designed with that in mind.

Oh, and for the Vancian system hate... Vancian may be standard, but you'll have your alternate system too.





I’m just challenging the logic. The reality is I don’t want atwill magic in its current form cept weak stuff like being able to tell north from south and that would be better suited for a priest of an adventure deity. The pure atwill tradition that I’m working on starts to fatigue after ten or so consecutive magical acts at 1st level. This is without points or mana. Id rather wotc save those mechanics for sorcerers.


 This is how I'm doing it so far. I have a Vancian tradition and an Atwill tradition. The Atwill tradition has slower casting times and more spell flux and failure. They use charisma and intelligence to cast. They also use multiple tables. Ive played a little bit with the class and its worked well so far. It gives the DM license to flavor stuff. So if you cast a sleep and it miscast as summoning it could summon a sleeping creature. That has happened. A sleep spell meant for kobolds summoned a sleeping hound. It kinda worked out though. A couple kobolds lost turns laughing and it woke up and fought well. This type of casting can become really dangerous at higher levels. That is part of the balance.


 The vancian tradition looks down at the atwill tradition as base hedge wizardry. The vancian caster has only basic atwill cantrips like Prestidigitation and a weak mage hand. Through feats they can improve them but unless they invest heavily in it, its never much of a weapon. The vancian caster is a more physical tough breed. They don’t need a second casting stat so its not uncommon for them to have some str, dex, or con. With my houserules basic combat maneuvers are only barred by ability prerecs so a vancian caster is more likely to be able to do simple maneuvers like rapid shot or shove away, they can also take rogue tricks, alchemy and when they memorize spells at 1st level they roll a d6 for 0 level spells then they round their int mod the nearest polyhedral and roll that for 1st level spells.

Nod. Then again, at-will abilities are a lot easier to balance than daily ones, so resolving the issue by ditching Vancian makes as much, if not more, sense than resolving it by making cantrips Vancian.  





Balancing atwill magic is easy if you develop something that is as devoid of flavor as Next cantrips and 4e atwills.


"flavors" a very subjective thing and can be almost completely divorced from mechanics.  Again, it's much easier to balance at-wills with at-wills than at-wills with dailies or dailies with anything else, or even dailies with dailies.  Aside from the contrasting "flavors" of 'broken' and 'useless,' balance does not inhibit flavoring at all.  Indeed, it allows for greater net variety, after factoring out everything too worthless to ever be used or crowded out by obvious overpowered must-haves.

Then why cant the wizard master 1st 2nd and 3rd level spells too?
Well, magic is pretty arbitrary.  But, considering that 5e spells, so far, do not scale with level, it might be entirely practical to let casters 'master' such lower level spells at very high level, adding to their at-will repetoir. 

The purpose of a class is to build character. A class has to have the potential or room for many concepts.

If that's the purpose of the /Vancian/ wizard, it is an abject failure.  


Mastering the same handful of spells isn’t character its conformity.

Then you'd want a larger list of better-balanced spells to choose from.
 

 

 

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"flavors" a very subjective thing and can be almost completely divorced from mechanics.  Again, it's much easier to balance at-wills with at-wills than at-wills with dailies or dailies with anything else, or even dailies with dailies.  Aside from the contrasting "flavors" of 'broken' and 'useless,' balance does not inhibit flavoring at all.  Indeed, it allows for greater net variety, after factoring out everything too worthless to ever be used or crowded out by obvious overpowered must-haves.





Please consider that I could say the same thing in reverse. "balance" a very subjective thing and can be almost completely divorced from mechanics.  Again, it's much easier to flavor at-wills with at-wills than at-wills with dailies or dailies with anything else, or even dailies with dailies. That is if you have a shred of creativity and build the mechanics to meet the concept.



You are generally right that balance offers more choices. So does depth. If you have 45 1st level spells like you did in 2e optimal becomes relative.




Well, magic is pretty arbitrary.  But, considering that 5e spells, so far, do not scale with level, it might be entirely practical to let casters 'master' such lower level spells at very high level, adding to their at-will repetoir. 


You could do it with every spell in the game if you flavored atwill and balanced atwills with themselves.



If that's the purpose of the /Vancian/ wizard, it is an abject failure.  





True for the wizards even more true for the clerics in every edition. Vancian casting alone is intended to create many concepts outside of casting type. Its one casting type that imo has been compromised before it was ever realized. What vancian magic did well was that it led to many different types of vancian casters. This was true despite the inbalance of spell power. Reason being depth. There was an absurd amount of spells, components, casting time, metamagic, rare scrolls, creatures that were resistant to your best spells so magic in D&D never came close to losing its depth in concepts until they were given atwill never fail spells.




Then you'd want a larger list of better-balanced spells to choose from. 




Yeah I want a tradition that has a quasi atwill access to all of them balanced with a 100% daily D&D signature vancian tradition.

"flavors" a very subjective thing and can be almost completely divorced from mechanics.  Aside from the contrasting "flavors" of 'broken' and 'useless,' balance does not inhibit flavoring at all.  Indeed, it allows for greater net variety, after factoring out everything too worthless to ever be used or crowded out by obvious overpowered must-haves.

Please consider that I could say the same thing in reverse.

You could say it backwards if you wanted, wouldn't change anything.

Flavor text can be present or not or in varying quanity.  For instance, Essentials presented powers with the flavor text re-phrased in large type before each power, because people wanted "more flavor."  What they got was more flavor text that didn't say anything new.  And, whether it resonated was a matter of individual preference.

You are generally right that balance offers more choices. So does depth. If you have 45 1st level spells like you did in 2e optimal becomes relative.

I think that had more to do with Sleep being slightly less broken in 2e, then 1e, when it was the hands-down best first level spell at first level, out of 30.  But, I could be mis-remembering.  

 
Well, magic is pretty arbitrary.  But, considering that 5e spells, so far, do not scale with level, it might be entirely practical to let casters 'master' such lower level spells at very high level, adding to their at-will repetoir. 

 erdana, sans-serif; font-size:9pt">You could do it with every spell in the game if you flavored atwill and balanced atwills with themselves.
 Obviously, such an all-at-will system would require less powerful spells, but sure.

If that's the purpose of the /Vancian/ wizard, it is an abject failure.  

 
True for the wizards even more true for the clerics in every edition. Vancian casting alone is intended to create many concepts outside of casting type. Its one casting type that imo has been compromised before it was ever realized. What vancian magic did well was that it led to many different types of vancian casters.
Not so much, no.  There were 'best' spells, and situational spells, and casters gravitated towards them.  Given the same foreknowledge, situation, and spell list, any two casters tended to prep very similar slates of spells.  Imbalance strangling variety.  And, of course, Vancian failed up-front in handling anything but Dying Earth magicians.

Now, the 3e Sorcerer, which was a bit less Vancian, had more variety.  You couldn't change or expand your spells known easily, so instead of always trying to prep the best/right spell for that day, you tried to find the best way to use the spells you knew.  There was still a tendency for sorcerers to gravitate towards obvious best (broken) spells, of course.


 

 

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I personally think that cantips are fun and I think that a caster with either no base attack or a much lower one should have some sort of magical back-up attack. I like 1d6+mod as the standard. However, I really like the idea of a signature spell which could be a level one given as a class feature of a wizard or similar class via a tradition, pact or some sort of domain-like ability tree. The alternative is to allow feats or 'talent' class abilities to be spent on them. Its something you can choose but you will ultimately give up something for being able to cast a certain spell all of the time.
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
You could say it backwards if you wanted, wouldn't change anything.

Flavor text can be present or not or in varying quanity.  For instance, Essentials presented powers with the flavor text re-phrased in large type before each power, because people wanted "more flavor."  What they got was more flavor text that didn't say anything new.  And, whether it resonated was a matter of individual preference.






Your example assumes that something is built with the mechanics as a foundation and the flavor describing it.  Maybe that is what happened with Essentials. Its been the trend.




Ierdana, sans-serif; font-size:9pt"> Obviously, such an all-at-will system would require less powerful spells, but sure.




I don’t think you need to change the actual spells just the approach to the spells. So the casting is weakened.


erdana, sans-serif; font-size:9pt">



Not so much, no.  There were 'best' spells, and situational spells, and casters gravitated towards them.  Given the same foreknowledge, situation, and spell list, any two casters tended to prep very similar slates of spells.  Imbalance strangling variety.





I’m looking at that game right now and  the wizards are called Ngangas they get 1 nkisi (spell) a day at 1st level. Any spell cast beyond that requires an increasingly difficult skill check that will cause the spell to target the caster if failed. Hows that for at will? Rituals are separate from spells with their own list. All of the spells are completely new. The whole concept is new within the vancian tradition. OP spells will hamper variety in any form of casting however that is truer with other forms of casting. You can see that by comparing Baldur’s Gate to Dragon Age.  When you are working with dalies you cant wait for a recharge so you have to prepare for the odd and learn to use the odd in even situations.



Ive played quite a few RPG video games and the best duals that I have seen have been in D&D and Phantom Dust. Ive never seen better dueling in a game than IWD 1, Baldur’s Gate 1&2, Phantom Dust and MtG.  High level duals in those games can be like chess matches.





Now, the 3e Sorcerer, which was a bit less Vancian, had more variety.  You couldn't change or expand your spells known easily, so instead of always trying to prep the best/right spell for that day, you tried to find the best way to use the spells you knew.  There was still a tendency for sorcerers to gravitate towards obvious best (broken) spells, of course.






 


The Sorcerer didn’t have variety until bloodlines. I believe that came from Pathfinder but may have come from a 3e or 4e splat book.  Next wisely borrowed them before dumping what was until then my pick for the second best class behind the Warlock which was also removed. Bloodlines forced Sorcerers to take a set of spells. You couldn’t load up on all choice spells but you can’t always do that as a wizard either. Its all left to setting.   

Your example assumes that something is built with the mechanics as a foundation and the flavor describing it.

Chicken & egg, really.  It doesn't matter whether you strart with mechanics and sprinkle flavor, or start with flavor and model with mechanics.  At the end of the process, if the mechanics are broken, flavor options are lost.


I don’t think you need to change the actual spells just the approach to the spells. So the casting is weakened.

How so?  Interruption or something like that?


Now, the 3e Sorcerer, which was a bit less Vancian, had more variety.  You couldn't change or expand your spells known easily, so instead of always trying to prep the best/right spell for that day, you tried to find the best way to use the spells you knew.  
The Sorcerer didn’t have variety until bloodlines. I believe that came from Pathfinder but may have come from a 3e or 4e splat book.
Bloodlines may have first been in 3.0, I think.  They were obscure though, and just gave the Sorcerer an extra spell known of each level.  I played a sorcerer like that shortly after 3.5 came out, though, I remember that.  A fire bloodline, Efreeti ancestor or something...?

Anyway, no, not the kind of variety I was talking about.  A Sorcerer's spells known choices were character-defining, since they couldn't often or easily be changed.   A Sorcerer who knew Magic Missle, Shield, Levitate, and Web, was /very/ different from a Sorcerer who knew Sleep, Charm Person, Invisibility and Stinking Cloud.  Two wizards with those same spells known in their books who meet and trade spells become identical.


 

 

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Chicken & egg, really.  It doesn't matter whether you strart with mechanics and sprinkle flavor, or start with flavor and model with mechanics.  At the end of the process, if the mechanics are broken, flavor options are lost.





 


It mattered in your example. In your example “sprinkling flavor” on the mechanics wasn’t good enough.





How so?  Interruption or something like that?


Everything from casting time to spell flux, failure, augmentations, buffs, foci stuff, to components with unpredictable effects. It’s time to build a wild/harry potter mage.







Bloodlines may have first been in 3.0, I think.  They were obscure though, and just gave the Sorcerer an extra spell known of each level.  I played a sorcerer like that shortly after 3.5 came out, though, I remember that.  A fire bloodline, Efreeti ancestor or something...?

Anyway, no, not the kind of variety I was talking about.  A Sorcerer's spells known choices were character-defining, since they couldn't often or easily be changed.   A Sorcerer who knew Magic Missle, Shield, Levitate, and Web, was /very/ different from a Sorcerer who knew Sleep, Charm Person, Invisibility and Stinking Cloud.  Two wizards with those same spells known in their books who meet and trade spells become identical.




That’s my point bloodlines made the sorcerer unique. Before that they could pick the choice spells easier and with more abundance than a wizard. Wizards can end up in the same situation with different sets of spells at different times in their career. A wizard’s spell access is controlled by the DM and the setting.

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