## Evolving Gyre Sage with Elvish Archdruid

8 posts / 0 new
tzarchasm
Joined Jun 2012
386 Posts
So I made a thread here recently that taught me that evolve triggers already on the stack will fail to place a +1/+1 counter on an evolve creature if, by the time those triggers resolve, the creature's P/T equals or exceeds the one attempting to evolve it.  That leads me to today's question:

I have a 1/2 Gyre Sage on the battlefield when I cast Elvish Archdruid.  Normally, the Archdruid's power of 2 would be enough to evolve the Sage, so the trigger will go onto the stack and wait to resolve.  But the Archdruid has a static ability that gives all other Elves +1/+1.  Am I correct in assuming that by the time the evolve trigger resolves on the stack, the static +1/+1 bonus will have made the Gyre Sage a 2/3, and therefore unable to evolve off of the Archdruid?

To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
Chaikov
Joined Jun 2006
8707 Posts
So I made a thread here recently that taught me that evolve triggers already on the stack will fail to place a +1/+1 counter on an evolve creature if, by the time those triggers resolve, the creature's P/T equals or exceeds the one attempting to evolve it.  That leads me to today's question:

I have a 1/2 Gyre Sage on the battlefield when I cast Elvish Archdruid.  Normally, the Archdruid's power of 2 would be enough to evolve the Sage, so the trigger will go onto the stack and wait to resolve.  But the Archdruid has a static ability that gives all other Elves +1/+1.  Am I correct in assuming that by the time the evolve trigger resolves on the stack, the static +1/+1 bonus will have made the Gyre Sage a 2/3, and therefore unable to evolve off of the Archdruid?

Forget it: Evolve won't even trigger.

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

Enigma256
Joined Jul 2010
14845 Posts
when Evolve sees if it should trigger it sees the Gyre Sage as 2/3 and the new creature as 2/2
it won't trigger at all
proud member of the 2011 community team
tzarchasm
Joined Jun 2012
386 Posts
Gotcha. I thought the Archdruid entering would trigger Evolve before the static bonus kicked in. Thanks, guys.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
Enigma256
Joined Jul 2010
14845 Posts
proud member of the 2011 community team
Chaikov
Joined Jun 2006
8707 Posts
Actually, the if-clause (rule 603.4) is what would keep Evolve from resolving, assuming it triggered.
What keeps it from triggering are rules 603.6b & d:

603.6b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is on the battlefield (and not before then). The permanent is never on the battlefield with its unmodified characteristics...

603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions...

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.

rudolf
Joined Sep 2005
16886 Posts
Actually, the if-clause (rule 603.4) is what would keep Evolve from resolving, assuming it triggered.
What keeps it from triggering are rules 603.6b & d:

603.6b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is on the battlefield (and not before then). The permanent is never on the battlefield with its unmodified characteristics...

603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions...

603.4 also says it does not trigger, so there's nothing wrong with Enigma's answer

603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; [...]

Chaikov
Joined Jun 2006
8707 Posts
You're missing my point: I never said Enigma256's answer was wrong.
(in fact, I can't even recall Enigma ever being wrong)
But the answer was incomplete. Insufficient, actually.

The OP correctly suspected that Evolve wouldn't be able to resolve and Enigma correctly pointed to the if-clause rule...
...if it ever triggered!
603.4 also says it does not trigger

I'm afraid not.

See, the OP's unsuspected mistake was to assume Evolve actually triggered, and 603.4 cannot help in dispelling this incorrect assumption, because the real question is «did the trigger event occur?»
Rule 603.6d is required to understand why the trigger doesn't happen, as it it required to understand why it WILL trigger if I play/resolve Tanglebloom while March of the Machines is on the Field, for example.

Only 603.6d tells us to look at objects AFTER they entered the Field to decide if Evolve triggers, and not to care about how they looked on the Stack.

Tax evasion is nothing but legitimate self-defense against the theft that is tax collection.